How PCGS does crossovers

homerunhall · February 4, 2003 3:54PM

There's been more talk about PCGS crossover rates recently. Just so everyone knows, when a coin is submitted through the crossover service, it goes into the grading room with the grade covered up. In other words, the graders grade the coin in the holder and punch their grade in the computer without knowing the other grading service's grade.

I'm sure that someone will point out that the graders could "uncover" the grade and/or automatically adjust their grading downward since they do know it's another grading service's coin. But I'm telling everyone that doesn't happen.

When the coin is finished with the grading process, i.e. when the PCGS grade has been determined by a consensus of grader opinions, the verifier will look at the coin and compare it with the other grading service's grade. I can tell you that crossover coins are rarely lowered in the verification process. What does often happen however, is that the verifier will look for additional coins to cross. For example, if the initial pass yields 4 crosses out of 20 coins attempted, the verifier may pull out the best three or four "misses" and have the graders re-look at the coins to see if they can indeed cross. Some may not believe it, but the fact is that we make every possible attempt to cross every coin we can.

relayer · February 4, 2003 4:41PM

Thanks for the insight. It's nice to know I get a second chance (maybe).

I've got two in the queue now. An 1869 Shield 5c ANACS PR65 and a 1912 Barber 50c PR62 so please ask the verifier to give them another chance if they don't make the first round

LucyBop · February 4, 2003 4:45PM

the HepDaddy has spoken, and I believe him!

keets · February 4, 2003 7:45PM

it has always made sense to me that PCGS would crossover in an attempt to have the best coins in a PCGS holder, so speculation that they purposely don't cross another services holdered coins hasn't ever seemed logical. what would be helpful to Club Members when a coin is rejected would be some type of explanation. as it now stands, we are left to guess reasons for rejection and paranoid speculation is the result. how about some help in that area David??

al h.

python1 · February 4, 2003 8:31PM

Ditto KEETS!

Lakesammman · February 4, 2003 10:16PM

While I appreciate the insight, I have several NGC 66R IHC's that are superior to PCGS 66R coins of the similar era, when compared side to side. I am 0/15 in getting them crossed. The market also found the NGC coins "Market acceptable", as the auction receipts will attest, strong prices realized for each.

Zerbe · February 5, 2003 1:24AM

I would like to know, when an NGC coin does not cross at PCGS, what the grade was determined to be, by the PCGS graders. If I had that information, there is a POSSIBILITY that I might send it in again for that PCGS grade. I am assuming here that the grade would be one grade lower, but you never know, so having PCGS's actual grade on a slip of paper, instead of no answer why it did not cross, or what PCGS thought the coin graded would be great information to me, and not leave me completely clueless. P. Taylor

pqgold · February 5, 2003 3:29AM

If a coin does not crosss at PCGS, then I would appeciate it, if the PCGS grade given, be made known to the submitter. It would be good to get a decimal grade. As an example; A NGC MS67 coin is submitted, but does not cross to a PCGS MS67. Please give the submitter the decimal grade, as example; MS66.7. The submitter, knowing he was not far off, may submitt again, but if the grader gave it an MS66.0, then he would probably not waste his time and money resubmitting it again. OH OH !! I think I just revealed to myself, why PCGS does not give their grade. People getting the coin back, do not know if they were off a little or a lot, so would most likely submit it again.

keets · February 5, 2003 3:46AM

.......what about an e-mail or a link to a submission with a grade assessment and an oppurtunity to say "cross it" if it is graded lower, with a reasonable fee? the picture is further clouded with a coin holdered at PR68CAM. did it DNC for numerical grade or designation??

al h.

littlewicher · February 5, 2003 5:05AM

Someone told me that they submitted NGC coins to PCGS to cross. When they sent in the NGC coins, they put a sticker label over the grade. I'm not sure if it crossed or not, or what holder it came back in, but the label was peeled back just enough to see the grade. I can't remember which forum member it was. If you say that's how crossovers are done, I'll believe you, because you're there to witness it. Just wanted to vent a little. I'm not saying that what they did was wrong, because curiousity is just human nature. If I was in there grading, I would probably want to peek at the grade.

TomB · February 5, 2003 5:25AM

To address littlewicher's statement; of course the tape covering the grade would be peeled back, how do you think PCGS finds out the grade to see if the coin crossed!?!

For others, it has been my experience that the grade PCGS gives a coin is listed online if the coin goes DNC. It does not stay listed forever, but, it is there for a few days. Just my experience.

kieferscoins · February 5, 2003 5:27AM

TomB, I agree. In pm, he has been trying to tell me you write it on the form and dosen't need to be peeled off to be checked. That is crazy because many people make mistakes on the submission forms.

Cameron Kiefer

littlewicher · February 5, 2003 5:32AM

Well, I guess they don't need a special column for the current grade then. I say just crack or saw the top half of the holder off with the grade. geesh I guess we shouldn't all get worked up over trivial things. What ever happened to the old days of collecting when everyone didn't have to worry about what grade the stupid holder said. man

Russ · February 5, 2003 6:11AM

Besides the obvious answer to the reason why, Littlewicher got it wrong (surprise, surprise!). It was not NGC coins sent to PCGS, it was PCGS coins sent to NGC.

Here is the thread.

Russ, NCNE

djm · February 5, 2003 8:04AM

The thing I don't understand about crossing coins while still in the holder is. How is it possible to accurately grade the coin?? After a few months the holders become so scratched how do you tell what's on the coin and what's on the holder. This is why I don't think the PCGS sticker on the NGC coins will work.

Don't you think that PCGS would be alittle baised againest the "second tier" grading companies. How would it look if you sent in a PCI 5 and got back a PCGS 6?

I think if I were to cross any coins I would definately crack them out first. That's just my feelings

RGL · February 5, 2003 8:33AM

But, to clarify, if you are crossing at any grade, it automatically comes out of the existing slab before it is graded? I have -- don't laugh now -- a nice ACG coin I want to send in, but do not want to crack it out. I worry that if the graders do see it in an ACG slab, I am doomed before the loupe comes out, even if it is an unconscious bias ...

Russ · February 5, 2003 8:40AM

RGL,

When I very first started (and was even more ignorant than I am now) I sent some ACG in cross at any grade, and they did just that.

Russ, NCNE

gmarguli · February 5, 2003 8:42AM

But, to clarify, if you are crossing at any grade, it automatically comes out of the existing slab before it is graded?

No. It is examined in slab to make sure the coin will not be bodybagged. You'd be rather if they took your NGC "cross at any grade" coin and removed it from the slab and sent it back to you in a bodybag.

I have -- don't laugh now -- a nice ACG coin I want to send in, but do not want to crack it out. I worry that if the graders do see it in an ACG slab, I am doomed before the loupe comes out, even if it is an unconscious bias ...

It's possible that you could do a special request to remove the coin from the slab before grading. You'd have to talk to customer service abut that.

littlewicher · February 5, 2003 8:43AM

Oops my mistake, Russ. Next time I send in some NGC coins to PCGS, I'm going to put labels on the NGC holder, and see if they are peeled, if the coin doesn't cross. Maybe coin grading companies weren't the best thing to happen to numismatists. Anymore, we seem to all care about the holder, including myself sometimes. However, I like to buy the coin instead of the holder, and grading companies at least give me the assurance that the coin will near or be the coin I expect. I guess it's just a trivial matter.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · February 5, 2003 8:54AM

Good Afternoon Homerunhall

As most people,collectors and dealers,submit coins in other third party holders to PCGS for crossover THE OBJECT IS TO GET THE COIN IN A PCGS HOLDER.In the marketplace a PCGS ms 66 many times has the value of a ms 65 of another service.Why then is it taking PCGS so darn long to write the grade at which the coin will cross on the invoice.As you know you and I have been down this road many times and most recently with a Barber dime.
Previouslly PCGS graders have written the grade on the little tag covering up the grade of the coin submitted for crossover.Is this still the policy?
Stewart Blay

RGL · February 5, 2003 9:45AM

Thanks for the information/insight. In the case of an ACG coin, can you mark "bodybag at any excuse?"

Dahlonega · February 5, 2003 10:24AM

What I don't understand is why so many major, successful long term dealers generally 'crack out' coins even from PCGS/NGC holders before [re]submission? Some of these dealers even have ex-graders in their employ. Has PCGS recently changed the way they handle resubmissions? It just doesn't make sense to me if the graders are truly unbiased. Has PCGS ever done an internal audit to see if there is a significant difference? Sign me a perplexed collector.

lincolnSence · February 5, 2003 1:25PM

Homerun - I'm sorry, I for one do not believe you when you make the statement that the verifier looks through your submissions to find ADDITIONAL coins to cross. To do so would undermine the graders. Of what value would it be to have this procedure performed? Now if you beefed this example up by mentioning that the verfier is in effect performing a QC function, and questions some submissions, then I would have been more inclined to buy your statement. You didn't do this. Your intent appeared to convince us that PCGS is looking for every opportunity to cross all the good material. If you could please clarify your statement, I think it would help.

How PCGS does crossovers

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