Consensus grading makes no sense. It's time for Rational Grading (and pics of a magnificent Norfolk
ANACONDA
Posts: 4,692 ✭
Concensus grading makes no sense. It's like remittitur and additur in the law.
If the judge doesn't like the verdict, he sets it aside and substitutes his own. That's just bunk, like consensus grading is.
You want better grading? Join intellectuals and elitists like me in ushering forth a new grading which i do hereby ordain as Rational Grading.
Here's how it works. You have a number of graders (five would be a good number) who grade all of the coins independently of each other.
They don't influence each other with table talk and other malarky only to have the finalizer over rule the plebes.
You average the grades together and round to the nearest decimal point. The result is what you want - more highly replicable grades.
You want "70" to mean something....get 5 guys to agree to it. You want your 65s to mean something...get 5 guys to have totals that average 65.
Think about it. If you were to pick a grading service, picking one that could grade consistently each time is what you want.
Rational grading is the answer. (Of course inconsistent grading is what the grading companys may want - more submissions.....more money...???)
(Oh, you've read this far. You must be an intellectual and an elitists too! Now, remember, intellectuals and elitists don't take themselves
too seriously especially when referring to themselves as intellectuals and elitists. We are after all just, as one board member knows, cosmic debris.)
adrian
If the judge doesn't like the verdict, he sets it aside and substitutes his own. That's just bunk, like consensus grading is.
You want better grading? Join intellectuals and elitists like me in ushering forth a new grading which i do hereby ordain as Rational Grading.
Here's how it works. You have a number of graders (five would be a good number) who grade all of the coins independently of each other.
They don't influence each other with table talk and other malarky only to have the finalizer over rule the plebes.
You average the grades together and round to the nearest decimal point. The result is what you want - more highly replicable grades.
You want "70" to mean something....get 5 guys to agree to it. You want your 65s to mean something...get 5 guys to have totals that average 65.
Think about it. If you were to pick a grading service, picking one that could grade consistently each time is what you want.
Rational grading is the answer. (Of course inconsistent grading is what the grading companys may want - more submissions.....more money...???)
(Oh, you've read this far. You must be an intellectual and an elitists too! Now, remember, intellectuals and elitists don't take themselves
too seriously especially when referring to themselves as intellectuals and elitists. We are after all just, as one board member knows, cosmic debris.)
adrian
0
Comments
All kidding aside, I'd like the detail discussed online. Net grade on the holder is OK, but I'd like to be able to look up the slab specs and see the numeric 1-10 for strike, luster, marks, wear, and color. Maybe then, an opinion of overall appearance. That would be my panel of judges, and one grader could do it all. Maybe then, we'd have an idea what the 65 we were buying sight unseen looked like.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I'm not sure I can see the benefit in sight unseen bidding now that the internet is so pervasive and everyone now knows how to make accurate images of coins for sending hither and yon.
peacockcoins
I've suffered that technique on several of my submissions.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
AGS
Anaconda Grading Service
our motto is...............
"like our Rational Grading system or face the Anaconda"
I think any grading service would have to be owned by some entity not involved in buying and selling, to avoid the appearance of impropriety.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I liked the old (failed) ANACS grading system. Here is a large scan of an old graded Columbian. It is a very average coin compared to that Norfolk, I just use it as an example because it is the only commem I have graded by the old ANACS system
Old ANACS grades
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
a grading service that could grade a coin right (give it a grade that it would closely re-give later) is what we need.
I agree it might be a little more expensive but i think on many occasions it would be worth it. No one wants to buy over graded coins and no one wants their coins undergraded.
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
Nice coin, though.
Supercoin......really? I'm sure I didn't ignore it on purpose. I usually pay attention to fellow intellectuals.
everyone will have their own opnion as to what the grade is....to them.
Grading is still an art,not a science.
This would also lend to communicating on the holder the possibility of a PQ coin or one that just made it.
Be honest, wouldn't you like to know who, exactly, graded that Lincoln MS-70?
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
As appealing as it sounds, it does seem cumbersome. It would still be a subjective process. Not sure there would be a net improvement. Sure is a interesting thought. Do you think PCGS is capable of keeping 5 graders, in the current environment??
"But the market rejected it and went to the present slabbing instead."
I think that may be an inaccurate conclusion. What was rejected was ANACs non-encapsulation of coins along with everything ANACS was doing.
True, true, true. But, is is as cumbersome as having a coin graded multiple times by multiple services? There are some coins that appear as populations higher in the reports than their original mintage figures.
Besides, i personally don't care, generally speaking, how long it takes to do it right. I'm and end user and only rarely submit coins.
My interest is a better system for the good of the hobby/profession. Think about how much time we spend on this board speculating about what grade something might be - it goes to show you how important getting correct grades is.
"It would still be a subjective process."
And so would programming a computer to do computer grading.
<< <i>Here's how it works. You have a number of graders (five would be a good number) who grade all of the coins independently of each other. >>
snakeboy,
your suggestion IS 'consensus grading'.
I'm like you, in that I don't care how long it takes to grade because I buy coins to keep for the most part, not to resell.
Dan
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
On the other hand, the system we have with us today is based on a 70 point scale. The before and after of a coin that is graded has always been left for us to decide what is worth collecting and what is not. There's no way around this very human nature of man. Every worthy collectable coin will go through many
tests of grading whether you pay for it or not. Where it (each coin) ends up will depend on that collector's knowledge and expense.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
with grade range.X# of dollars for AU50-55 .58-62 might be another grade / price range.
I guess its like the BU,Choice BU,and Choice Gem BU.Not specific grades but a certain range in the scale.
It is a really good idea, but I dont think it would fly. I also support proving the underlying basis for the grade, i.e. strike, lustre (sp?), etc.
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
What a great post. A pleasure to read. I am very glad you have come here. And it is my deepest hope that you will find a reason to stay.
Clankeye
Julian, you said in part, "If the purchaser likes a coin and it fits in to his collection, that should be the end of it."
I would agree if all purchasers were knowledgeable and informed and therefore didn't need to be protected from those who might try to take advantage of them. And, before someone asks or makes the point, no, I don't feel that the uninformed are merely getting what they deserve if someone sticks it to them.
Before NGC and PCGS were around, many dealers sold badly over graded and / or problem coins to unsuspecting buyers / collectors and buried them in horrible deals. I have seen far too many such examples over the years. And, while the major grading companies are far from perfect, they at least offer some protection to the buyer who needs the help.
Sure, many buyers still pay way too much or buy coins that many think are over graded, etc. And (this is for you, dorkkarl), some sellers unknowingly sell under graded coins for less than they should get for them. But, overall, in my opinion, at least, the non-expert gets a much fairer shake than he did before NGC and PCGS existed.
I never expressed an opinion one way or the other of whether I agreed with Julian's post. I said it was a pleasure to read. And I stand by that.
Clankeye
More power to you if you disagreed and still said it was great. Now, the troublemaker in me must ask - for the record, did you agree or disagree?
As with many of the posts around here, I certainly found logic and clear headedness in a lot of what he is saying. But, I am not a big believer in absolutes. I think the hobby is many things to many people, and that it is in constant motion and flux. I think the post expresses kind of a purest way of looking at numismatics that is appealing. It is filled with common sense. Other realities when added to the picture though, may make for a more complicated and volitile hobby. If that were not the case alot of the back and forth we read on the forum simply wouldn't exist.
By the way, have you seen the movie Chicago yet? Love the scene where Richard Gere tap dances in it....
Clankeye
Now on that regrade,
Why in the world would PCGS do something that might lose them money? If the grade looks right on the holder, only the greedy or foolhardy would send it in. They would have to jack up the price 3 times the current rate to keep thier income at the same level. With the current system the graders give a coin a 64, the finalizer might give it a 63. You as the submitter KNOW it's a lock 64, so you keep sending it in, generating income. Maybe after 4 submitions it works, maybe 10 times it doesn't. You ask them to lose money in the name of customer satisfaction -- HOW DARE YOU!
Bah!
The AU58/MS63 anomaly has haunted and will continue to haunt grading for reasons that have been discussed before concerning rub from circulation and rub from life in a mint bag, roll, cabinet or album, or even concluding whether there is rub at all. Anyone who has ever labored to decide whether one of their own coins is AU58 or MS63, and vacillated between different conclusions on different days, can only imagine what happens in the grading room when the graders have the advantage of three sets of eyes but not the luxury of looking at one coin for hours. And since the grading service is guaranteeing the grade it probably only takes one guy to cry out "I see rub" for the finalizer to decide that it goes into an AU58 slab.
CG
Julian, you have described my biggest complaint with 3rd party grading. Since grading is reduced to a single number, there is no alternative for the services but to market grade. The number on the holder typically represents relative market value, and does not actually describe the attributes of the coin. There is simply no substitute for sight seen.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>While collectors generally are certainly better off with professional third party grading, they still must decide whether they like something regardless of grade. For example, a collector who normally will not bother to look at coin graded less than gem might just find an MS63 with great eye appeal–such as a beautifully toned example or a prooflike that has some hits in less conspicuous places. Conversely, he might see a coin graded MS65 that lacks eye appeal because it is dark or "just made it" into the 65 holder. Thus some 63s sell for a premium, and some 65s sell for a discount from the average price for the grade >>
Well spoken!
would cosider adopting a method of grading (Rational Grading - assigning a grade which is the average of the graders) which would probably result in fewer resubmissions]
My response: Because
1. someone else may come along and do it which would make PCGS either adopt the new method or lose maret share (when FedEx came along and originally did overnight deliveries for $9, the USPS lowered their rates, for the first time in response)
2. they may recognize the logic of it and fear that someone will come along and do it, so to decrease the attractiveness to any potential new competitor, they do it first
3. it makes sense and would be good for the coin community and David Hall (or whoever would make the decision) would get to feel better about himself because he's doing something that is good for the coin community
4. could could charge more for the service (maybe even based upon the number of graders you want grading your coin, the number of which could be displayed on the holder - selling a $50,000 which rec'd an average grade of 65 from 10 graders would carry more weight than a 65 that was graded by just three graders)
adrian