Collect What you Enjoy- Just be Prepared for a Rude Awakening!
braddick
Posts: 24,198 ✭✭✭✭✭
It appears, when coins are discussed and the merits of Modern/Contemporary coinage is bantered about, the louder the 'ring of truth' the noiser the Modern Activists become.
Michael, along with others, raised a terrific point about a year or so ago that got me thinking long and hard about my collecting goals. It was suggested what might happen if ALL my coins were popped out of their PCGS plastic- Classic and Moderns alike.
I realized I wouldn't be terribly hurt, if at all, by the value of the Classics. Afterall, a VF35 1909 Barber half pretty much remains a choice VF in or out of its holder.
Same goes with that bag toned, rainbow MS64 1881-S Morgan and the FN12 1846 Seated dollar. Encapsulation protects me regarding authenticity and also protects the coin, somewhat- but other than the grading fees incurred, what would I be out financially? Not much.
Unfortunutely the same could not be stated for the Moderns. I owned a PCGS MS68 New York State quarter. It was priced (at the time! They've dropped significantly since then!) at $325.00. I also owned a 1995-D Kennedy in PCGS MS68 along with other super high grade Moderns. Most of them were featured in a top three PCGS Modern Type Registry.
If they all magically popped out of their PCGS holders were was I at? Is that still a $700.00 Kennedy? Was my 1999-D Lincoln cent in PCGS MS69 still a $275.00 coin, raw?
Collect what you enjoy. I would only suggest doing so wide eyed and be prepared for a rude awakening, in the future, if you don't choose wisely now.
Michael, along with others, raised a terrific point about a year or so ago that got me thinking long and hard about my collecting goals. It was suggested what might happen if ALL my coins were popped out of their PCGS plastic- Classic and Moderns alike.
I realized I wouldn't be terribly hurt, if at all, by the value of the Classics. Afterall, a VF35 1909 Barber half pretty much remains a choice VF in or out of its holder.
Same goes with that bag toned, rainbow MS64 1881-S Morgan and the FN12 1846 Seated dollar. Encapsulation protects me regarding authenticity and also protects the coin, somewhat- but other than the grading fees incurred, what would I be out financially? Not much.
Unfortunutely the same could not be stated for the Moderns. I owned a PCGS MS68 New York State quarter. It was priced (at the time! They've dropped significantly since then!) at $325.00. I also owned a 1995-D Kennedy in PCGS MS68 along with other super high grade Moderns. Most of them were featured in a top three PCGS Modern Type Registry.
If they all magically popped out of their PCGS holders were was I at? Is that still a $700.00 Kennedy? Was my 1999-D Lincoln cent in PCGS MS69 still a $275.00 coin, raw?
Collect what you enjoy. I would only suggest doing so wide eyed and be prepared for a rude awakening, in the future, if you don't choose wisely now.
peacockcoins
0
Comments
Ray
My motto, be very, very, very careful about paying exorbitant one point grade premiums for CLASSICS or MODERNS. I'd like to claim this a unique advice I dreamed up but it's advice I've read in books, articles and on different forums from many people that have been involved in collecting for 10, 20, 30+ years, folks who have seen the ups and downs in the market and have a keen understanding of what factors contribute to long term value.
GSAGUY
Pat: Your (2) 1995(d) Kennedys were awesome, in or out of the holder!!
So, Pat - I agree with your premise, but, the concept applies to not only the (3) modern coins you mentioned, but also to the myriad high dollar classic coins out there. And, I also agree with you that much of the circulated material out there does not require a third party grading assessment and/or an insurance policy to create a maximum value for the item
Tom
Also, that bump up to PR70 for AE's or for that matter the jump to 70 for the statehood quarters is really dramatic and given the state of world affairs, I'm just a little too cautious about spending the money, I'll be content with my 69's or 68's and not stress over the financial implications of "playing like the big boys".
Max
____________________________
TRUTH
Pat,
The same also could not be said for any coin whose value difference between small grade differences. Your ChVF has a small value difference betwen VF30 and EF40, and your pretty Morgan is special because it is pretty (it's MS64 grade is pretty immaterial).
If we're talking about an '84-S Morgan that's graded MS62, then you had better not crack it out because of the fear that it may end up an AU58 -- and there's a big price difference there.
The issue here is not about moderns; the issue applies to all coins in all series where a small grade jump makes a big price difference (i.e., conditional rarities). It is the conditional rarities where the slabbing game makes us sometimes want to pull our hair out!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I have no qualms about what any collectors collects, or how much of their money they spend, and to be truthful, I love those pristine examples -- but, there can be no doubt, I would not spend that kind of money with ANY expectation of recouping it. Were I to purchase those or similar coins for that or a similar amount, it would be with the knowledge that I am paying for bragging rights, whether I am bragging to others or myself. I'm sure that the 1999-D Lincoln you mentioned has less disturbances (if any) than any one I might pull from my collection, but, I am also sure that they aren't worth the $270 or so more than I paid for my mint set. Now, for that $270, you get to announce yours is graded MS69 or compete with those listed in the Registry, and I don't disagree that such a pristine example may complement your overall set. Here again is my point; if I happen upon a MS69 for $14.95 and you happen on yours for $270, where is my "rude awakening"?
It's a tad presumptuous to believe that anything is wrong with collecting modern coinage or even high grade modern coinage OR that anyone who does has paid exorbitant money.
Anyway, please collect what you enjoy -- do it "smartly" and there doesn't have to be a rude awakening AND we may at some point dispense with the exorbitant prices; then, what would there be to criticize? Really, there doesn't have to be criticism now, if there is; just educate, educate and educate.
TDN: I understand your point, but, the "insurance" has actually protected many a collector who bought PR70 coins for example with ticks on them. The coins never "turned" - they were graded erroneously in the first place and bought back as such.
Interestingly, I recently brought in a PR70DCAM coin to PCGS that was sideways in the holder. I simply asked them to straighten it out for the collector's benefit. When PCGS removed it from the holder, they discovered the rim of the coin had a planchet problem, or a mark (it was hard to tell). THEY DID THE RIGHT THING AND CAME OUT TO THE LOBBY WITH THE RAW COIN AND TOLD ME THE COIN COULD NOT GO BACK INTO THE PR70DCAM HOLDER. Shortly thereafter, David Hall provided me with a replacement coin of exceptional quality on this relatively valuable coin. I "tip my hat" to Charlie (head of Customer Service who handled presenting the coin for straightening and oversaw the problem from there), Anebal (head of slabbing operations who had the professionalism to simply not reslab the coin and hide the rim problem) and David Hall (and Sandy, his assistant) for dealing with this problem in a totally professional manner. Here was a clear example of the "insurance policy" at work on a coin that did not "turn".
Wondercoin
<< <i>on "liner" coins, the independent thrid party grading company plays a vital role in creating an unbiased opinion as to the grade of the coin. >>
it is foolish to believe that grading co's are "unbiased". they will, by virtue of their guarantee, by biased to undergrading of coins. i have never understood how this myth of being "unbiased" came about.
<< <i> Second (as TDN mentioned on another thread), the holder creates an "insurance policy" for the collector base that the coin is, indeed, the grade it is represented to be. >>
that is NOT what the guarantee states. it states that the coin would grade NO HIGHER than the stated grade, & offers absolutely no protection whatsoever against UNDERgrading of coins. again, why make these types of statements which perpetuate myths & non-truths about slabing co's?
your misleading statements may seem trivial, but they lead to far too many assumptions that, like i said, mislead newbies. just tell the truth, & you will be doing considerably more for those who come here to learn.
K S
i retract the following: "
<< <i>popping from their slabs has about as much chance of happening as gold going back to 20$ an ounce >>
i have released at least 1000 coins from their slabs, & have never regretted it. probably 1/3 were pcgs. " as i did not understand the point of this context to include EVERY pcgs coin being unholdered.
Now, if you walk into an average coin dealer with a nice MS62 Seated Dollar (which are a popular classic but not ragingly popular), you will most likely at least get a serious conversation going. My point, and to agree with Braddick, is that the primary market-makers, dealers, largely discount the value of super high grade moderns and/or don't seriously care about or understand the modern market. Now, I know that PF69DCAM modern collectors and registry people get angry to hear it, but it seems unlikely to me that a PF69DCAM modern out of the slab, or a likely PF69DCAM still in the gov't packaging, would sell for the same crazy price as it does in the plastic PCGS slab. The raw uncleaned MS62 Seated Dollar will get nearly the same "buy" offer in or out of the slab. I am not one to tell anyone else what to collect. Just saying to carefully watch the market and know how liquid what you have is.
As most of you know, amongst other things I collect all the Moderns from 1997. I can't complain. I've watched my $5 JRs TRIPLE in price from $300 and has almost quadrupled. Those $30 Proof Silver eagles have done nicely, almost doubled, especially the ones in PCGS 69 holders, I'm at double +. I've got Proof 70s that cost me less than $100 each. And the 97 Coin & Currency Sets I got cheap in 98, well they have $400 nickels in them.
Oh, I almost forgot, there's the matter of that 97-D 25¢ in ms67 that thenumish sold me for almost $300. I see he sells them for $50 now. heehe can't win them all.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Quite frankly, I've never really understood the modern market, or it's appeal. I see little to no value in a PCGS MS69 1998 Washington quarter. If other folks like them, good for them. After all, to each his own!
Paying more than 50 bucks for any coin minted after 1964 makes my stomach turn.
Dave
your misleading statements may seem trivial, but they lead to far too many assumptions that, like i said, mislead newbies. just tell the truth, & you will be doing considerably more for those who come here to learn."
*******
Oh, I get it. One will get a "rude awakening" when he/she buys all those undergraded slabs. Now I understand. Thank you for clearing that up for me
Wondercoin
But to say thet grading services will pass on sounds far too much like saying, "When this silly computer fad finally passes...", or "When people finally decide they miss their horses and get rid of those smelly, noisy automoblies...". The current services are all for-profit enterprises, so who knows 20 years down the road-but if they don't last-the demand vacuum will be filled.
The DEALERS let the 'investors' into the game decades ago. I have yet to hear about a dealer telling an 'investor', "No, I won't sell you the coin, because you don't have the experience to appreciate it." . Too late for that now-so get used to grading services and slabs. That train left the station long, long ago...
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
TRUTH
high grade Barbers and Seated coinage in both high grade Proof and MS. I also have
started collecting toned Franklin Half dollars. Perhaps the answer to value is to not put all of ones
eggs in a single basket. As with general investing, distribute in several different areas.
You expand your level and range of knowledge and become more astute at grading
and have more fun being in several major areas of the market. All sectors of the coin market
will see up and down cycles, some as violent as what we are currantly seeing in the stock market.
But with a range to your collection, it will always be possible to sell a part of ones collection at
a reasonable price.
Camelot
The only people to get hurt would be the ones with the super high grade modern coins. And then again would they? I paid on average about $20 a coin for my PR69DCAM State Quarters in Flag holders. And I simply don't care that I paid too much. They were fun to collect, and they make a neet set! Even if they go down to 25¢ each, I won't be disappointed. They are part of my hobby. I would think things like my 1858 over 1858 half dime's value wouldn't change much if plastic went away (it is raw anyway). Or, the 1942/1, or the 3 legged Buffalo, etc, etc, etc.
I also have a modern set (I'm right below "The Cheap Set") and if these go down, who cares! They were a blast to collect and that's what it is about anyway. So, yes, I for one am prepared for the bottom to fall out; even though, I don't think it is coming soon, if ever.
To CYBERKEN, great post for your first one! And welcome to the boards.
Tony
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
I LIKE modern coins. The US Mint puts out beautiful product, and the RCM beats them all to hell, so I buy from both. They come in good packaging, and that's where I keep them. If I see a "bubble" building, I'll know it's short term, and I may be enticed to sell into it. But I HOPE that doesn't happen, because I like my nice, inexpensive moderns right where they are...
I sometimes find myself being somewhat jealous of some of the coins I see others buying and posting on here, and I think thats what got me into my obssession with the registry quality coins. Who knows, someday I may happen to be able to get back into the slabs, but if not, so be it.........I am happy with my collection and the coins I have acquired. I know most of them aren't especially high value, but none-the-less, I enjoy them.
<< <i> When a point difference means a great deal more money, that is when someone has to be careful.......... I, for one, try to collect just before the huge price break. On some coins, I'm more picky, but
generally I go for the "just before the huge jump in price" coins. >>
Prices will typically move linerally through a specific coin
until a price break occurs. The price breaks vary within the
series itself. For example the 1893-S dollar has a lower price
break and the 1921 Peace has a higher price break. Personally
I have found that in many of the classic coins I have
collected MS64 has probably been the optimal choice of grade.
It all depends on what you collect. It tends to be lower for
some rarer issues. With moderns it is of course higher.
Braddick: I hope modern collectors will think about what you said
in your thread. Sounds like you have seen the light.
Michael is a sharp cookie to listen to all right.
My website
<< <i>Oh, I get it. One will get a "rude awakening" when he/she buys all those undergraded slabs. Now I understand. Thank you for clearing that up for me >>
wondercoin, wake up, the problem is when you SELLundergraded slabs. THINK for a moment, & it will make sense.
YOU believe plastic co's offer "unbiased" grading, & in FACT, you stated as much. it is easy to demonstrate that this a false statement.
FACT: grading is based on OPINION. by definition, an OPINION is biased.
FACT: because grades are not an absolute property of coins, they can change over time. if they can change over time, it must be due to whatever bias is in place at the time.
FACT: plastic guarantees only against a coin being regraded to a lower grade (whereby you get a refund on value lost). you obviously believe that it is not possible to lose $ due to undergrading of coins. FALSE. i've made the example multiple times that if YOU send a coin in, it comes back ms-60, you sell it for ms-60 money, it is sent back in & comes back ms-63, YOU LOST MONEY because you sold the coin at too cheap a price.
of course, when everything you see is distorted by a piece of plastic, it is easier to just spew out dogma instead of THINKING about whether what you said is true or not.
K S
<< <i>Oh, I get it. One will get a "rude awakening" when he/she buys all those undergraded slabs. Now I understand. Thank you for clearing that up for me, wondercoin, wake up, the problem is when you SELLundergraded slabs. THINK for a moment, & it will make sense.
YOU believe plastic co's offer "unbiased" grading, & in FACT, you stated as much. it is easy to demonstrate that this a false statement.
FACT: grading is based on OPINION. by definition, an OPINION is biased. >>
Of course grading is an opinion. We've charged the grading companies to give us
a price on our coins. There are no grading standards only grading prices. We don't
want to have to do any work to determine the value of our coins so we get a grade
and just look at a price list for the price.
And of course this grade is biased. It is determined almost solely by the state of the coin
and the condition of the market which the graders have taken the time and study to
learn.
<< <i>FACT: because grades are not an absolute property of coins, they can change over time. if they can change over time, it must be due to whatever bias is in place at the time. >>
Yes. This bias against which they are measured is called the market.
<< <i>FACT: plastic guarantees only against a coin being regraded to a lower grade (whereby you get a refund on value lost). you obviously believe that it is not possible to lose $ due to undergrading of coins. FALSE. i've made the example multiple times that if YOU send a coin in, it comes back ms-60, you sell it for ms-60 money, it is sent back in & comes back ms-63, YOU LOST MONEY because you sold the coin at too cheap a price. >>
Why not just crack it out and sell it raw?
<< <i>of course, when everything you see is distorted by a piece of plastic, it is easier to just spew out dogma instead of THINKING about whether what you said is true or not.
K S >>
Why not just crack it out and sell it raw? Throw off your shackles!
Truthteller said " ... Third party grading was established to determine grade and authenticity, a rather novel approach at the time. However, the trading of coins in holders came later, and thus value was determined by grade on an electronic system
Apparently, I have misread somewhere along the line, because my understanding of the advent of third party grading is that it was developed to facilitate sight-unseen trading. Now, if that is an incorrect fact, please direct me to the source where I might find this?
Dorkkarl, I just don't understand how you can on one hand profess the responsibility of a collector, buyer or what have you and then turn around and insinuate that FACT: plastic guarantees only against a coin being regraded to a lower grade (whereby you get a refund on value lost). you obviously believe that it is not possible to lose $ due to undergrading of coins. FALSE. i've made the example multiple times that if YOU send a coin in, it comes back ms-60, you sell it for ms-60 money, it is sent back in & comes back ms-63, YOU LOST MONEY because you sold the coin at too cheap a price. The plastic guarantees you will not lose the market value of the grade assigned to a coin you have. Don't know if this of course, when everything you see is distorted by a piece of plastic, it is easier to just spew out dogma instead of THINKING about whether what you said is true or not. was directed at any specific person, but in what I feel is my more objective opinion from the sideline, that statement comes across as dogmatic and unthinking. Now here's my apology for using your terminology; I admit I probably don't and can't consider ever conceivable point of view on any topic and usually refrain from making damning or preceptually inconsiderate statements. I do, however, respect your feeling and opinion regarding what and how you collect AND your right to espouse that as your opinion.
edited to add to 2nd para: If one sells an obviously undergraded coin, I can't really see how that is the fault or responsibility of the grading company. Submitters have an obligation to insure their service is correct - I guess that means one SHOULD know what they are doing, signing and joining - maybe opening up submissions to collectors wasn't the right thing to do OR maybe that means when one becomes a collector and submits coins, they really ought to know what they are doing. I cannot argue with anyone who feels that way.
to provide a 3rd party opinion on a sight-unseen purchase. The grade is not some kind of law, the permanance of the slab itself doesn't mean the gods have cast judgment on the coin.
in my opinion the grading service should put the coin in a 2x2 with a strip of tamper-evident tape to prevent it from being opened until the buyer gets it.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
wondercoin offered as TRUTH, these 2 statements (paraphrased):
(1) "independent 3d party grading gives an unbiased opinion on the grade"
(2) "the holder creates an "insurance policy" that the coin is the represented grade"
i am tired of seeing both of these FALSE statements not only accepted, but repeated so often that newbies are mis-led into thinking they are true.
why not jsut tell the TRUTH instead? no need to clutter up the discussion of slabs w/ mis-truths
(1) it is inherently impossible to render an unbiased opinion on something. the definition of "opinion" implies a bias, and a coin's grade is an OPINION, not a fact.
(2) the "insurance policy" is only that the coin is not overgraded, and i have logically shown several times that money is lost if you sell a coin at too low a grade. the "insurance policy" does NOTHING to protect you against undergrading. ie., there is no accountability when a plastic co. undergrades a coin. therefore, the holder does NOT guarantee the represented grade, but "half-way" guarantees it.
again, i see the two statements constantly spewed out on this board, on ebay, in day-to-day conversations at coin shows, etc., and they are not true. wondercoin does a disservice to the hobby by sustaining these falsehoods.
<< <i>If one sells an obviously undergraded coin, I can't really see how that is the fault or responsibility of the grading company >>
i am NOT faulting the grading co.!!! to my knowledge, the guarantee clearly spells out the conditions by which a coin is warranted not to be OVERgraded. i am faulting folks who, like wondercoin, make comments like "the plastic company guarantees the grade is as advertised", when in fact, it is only guaranteed against being OVERgraded. nothing more.
i do not accuse plastic co's of misrepresenting the guarantee, but i see folks blinded to anything other than plastic making the false statements.
it is very easy for some folks to trivialize my arguments by saying "there goes dorkkarl again, he hates slabs". it is simply , just simply, not true. i care little either way for slabs, they have zero influence on me when i study a coin, except i will say they inhibit thorough study by hiding 1/3 of the coin (the edge) & i would like to be able to view the coin w/out looking through the distortion of semi-clear plastic. but ultimately, i couldn't really care less either way about this or that slab. to say that "dorkkarl just hates plastic" is a cheap, easy way out of having to actually THINK about what i am saying. when you are so blinded by plastic, i guess it becomes scary if you have to begin to question the truth about slabs.
what i DO despise are statements, again, like the 2 above, that take advantage of those who don't know better, & imply the slabs are something, or offer something that they do not. THAT is taking advantage of the lesser-informed
<< <i>i still don't believe undergrading is an issue. >>
hey baccaruda, it can easily be proven logically. suppose you send a coin in & it comes back as ms-60. you sell it for ms-60 money. the new owner sends it in again, it comes back ms-63. would you not agree the higher grade is worth more? what if ms-60 was worth $100 (the amount you got), & ms-63 is worth $500. wouldn't you feel just a little bit shorted by the "wrong" grade from when you sent it in?
K S
I honestly think, if others possibly re-read your comments here, on this thread, they'll be enlightened.
It was easy, upon a first and quick pass, to conclude you're kind of nuts.
A second and more detailed reading causes me to now have to regroup and rethink some of the old conclusions I've drawn in the past.
Very thought provoking and yet encouraging.
I just wanted you to know that.
peacockcoins
i am NOT a very good writer, it usually takes me a couple or 3 tries to get my posts right.
i sincerely appreciate that you took the time to make sense of my nonsense.
K S
i understand that if the coin is undergraded the seller will losr money selling it at that grade. the seller, however, holds the coin in his possession after it's graded so he see the coin first-hand - the grade is not for the seller's use, but the buyer's. if the seller doesn't agree with the grade that's given, he can always have it regraded (given that the RIDICULOUS price charged for 3rd party grading doesn't always allow this.)
personally, that big plastic tomb the coin sits in is nothing but a marketing ploy IMO. it gives you the sense that you're holding a value-added product when actually the value hasn't changed. unfortunately people are buying that plastic now.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
As a newbie to the hobby, I do appreciate what slabs have to offer. I am hardly a grading expert and as much as I try to learn, I cannot take in all of this information in one sitting. When I'm attempting to put together a nice set of coins, sometimes I buy the slab and not the coin per say. I have seen many coins on ebay stating "Gem", "MS64" and the like and after viewing the coin, I wonder what drugs these people are on. Until I become more familiar with grading, it's nice to buy the slab that tells you the grade. But again, there are no guarentee's. At one point, I hope I can just look at the coin and know the grade but again, coins can be doctored/bait and switched...etc.
As for the moderns. Yes, some are incredibly priced which makes me wonder when billions of these coins have been produced but they are an item that have been in demand. I have never purchased a slabbed modern because of the prices. I have stuck to buying the coins from the mint and at most, I have purchased a Mint Packaged set on the secondary market and at premium... but not at the premium of slabbed coins. I have also sold a mint set or slabbed modern coinage because the prices were right. In recent times I have sold some slabs at below cost, a few board members can attest to that.
Moderns vs. Classics... I now collect mostly the classic coins but hope to keep up with the moderns. Moderns will eventually become classics. My son will probably hate me when he gets older if I don't have those state quarters that were all the rage back in the 90's and 00's
-Dave
(1) "independent 3d party grading gives an unbiased opinion on the grade"
(2) "the holder creates an "insurance policy" that the coin is the represented grade"
DK: (1) "unbiased" being simply defined as lacking the bias that is always present when a dealer or collector attempts to grade his/her own coin and then use that grade to buy or sell the item. My comment only refers to the benefit to use of a third party to determine the quality of an item. Anything you infer beyond that or any expanded visions of what you think I intended are simply that. Key word in this setence is "OPINION", which is simply that.
(2) no question the "insurance policy" covers overgraded coins. As to "undergraded coins", the "insurance policy" does not cover that situation. GET OVER IT. My homeowners insurance policy fails to cover a great many things. STOP TRYING TO REWRITE PCGS' INSURANCE POLICY - IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT - DON'T BUY THEIR SLABS. WAIT - YOU DON'T BUY THEIR SLABS ANYWAY - HENCE, YOU HAVE ZERO STANDING IN MY BOOK TO EVEN ADDRESS THIS SUBJECT. WAIT - IT'S A FREE COUNTRY - SORRY - YOU HAVE THE WRITE TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE. WAIT - IT'S A FREE COUNTRY - I ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO MY COMMENTS WITHOUT YOUR REPEATED REFERENCES TO "FALSE" THIS AND "FALSE" THAT...
WAIT - ALL OF THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BRADDICK'S THREAD INVOLVING THE RUDE AWAKENING ONE GETS WHEN THEIR $700 KENNEDY DROPS TO $100 - - YOU'VE LOBBIED YOUR "UNDERGRADE NOT COVERED BY INSURANCE" ISSUE EVERYWHERE YOU CAN. HEY - I'VE TRIED TO GET MY HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE TO COVER COINS I MIGHT BRING HOME FROM THE BANK - "NO CAN DO" - SORRY THEY SAY - NOT COVERED BY THE INSURANCE POLICY. THE WAY I SEE IT, PCGS RENDERS AN UNBIASED OPINION (REPEAT - UNBIASED OPINION - OPINION BEING THE KEY WORD) WHICH IS NOT INSURED IF IT IS WRONG TO THE DOWNSIDE (I.E. UNDERGRADED). DON'T LIKE THOSE TERMS? SIMPLE - DON'T SUBMIT, OR BRING YOUR BUSINESS TO THE GRADING COMPANY THAT DOES INSURE UNDERGRADED COINS (OR MAYBE CALL LLOYDS OF LONDON AND PURCHASE AN INSURANCE POLICY AGAINST PCGS' UNDERGRADING YOUR COIN - I HEAR THEY INSURE JUST ABOUT ANYTHING.
WONDERCOIN
<< <i>if the seller doesn't agree with the grade that's given, he can always have it regraded >>
but baccaruda, i think you can see where someone who is no expert & believes completely in the plastic DOES lose money when he sells his undergraded/slabed coins. remember, the point is that allegedly, even a newbie can buy the slabs w/out having to know how to grade. after all, how often does a newbie hear "be careful, pcgs makes mistakes when they grade"? what i always hear is "your protected when you buy a pcgs coin".
<< <i>unfortunately people are buying that plastic now. >>
that is a separate hobby, numis-plastics.
<< <i>I do hereby state that I have no more slabs. Any coins I get in a slab, I crack out >>
WOW! i congratulate you! now, spend some time & make friends w/ a reliable & reputable dealer. (yes, it IS possible to do so, my best friend is a coin dealer).
<< <i>(1) "unbiased" being simply defined as lacking the bias that is always present when a dealer or collector attempts to grade his/her own coin >>
wondercoin, i know that is what you meant, but a newbie would not! note how the fine distinction, while easy to gloss over if someone is experienced, can easily be twisted to making a newbie think the wrong thing.
consider this statement: "the grade on the plastic is right because pcgs's opinion is unbiased". you & i know that what is meant is, the opinion is unbiased w/ reference to the seller, but the statement comes across as meaning the grade is an "absolute", a "correct" grade because pcgs opinion was "unbiased"
put it very simply "unbiased opinion" is an oxymoron. a opinion by definition is biased.
<< <i>(2) no question the "insurance policy" covers overgraded coins. As to "undergraded coins", the "insurance policy" does not cover that situation. GET OVER IT. My homeowners insurance policy fails to cover a great many things. >>
you are comparing absurdly different situations. how can you possibly draw an analogy between homeowner's insurance & a grading guarantee? i'm sorry, but i stopped reading right there, because the analogy is absurd.
ok, finally read the rest.
<< <i>YOU DON'T BUY THEIR (pcgs's) SLABS >>
wondercoin, you are seriously diminishing your integrity here. i have clearly stated many times that i buy coins w/ total disregard to the plastic. i have purchased easily hundreds & hundreds of coins that just happened to be in holders manufactured by pcgs. your statement is FALSE. but as usual, it is easier to claim "there goes dorkkarl ranting & raving again", rather than to actually think about what i am saying.
<< <i>THE WAY I SEE IT, PCGS RENDERS AN UNBIASED OPINION (REPEAT - UNBIASED OPINION - OPINION BEING THE KEY WORD) >>
furthermore, the ultimate foolishness in your argument is that "bias" is "bad". why is it bad to have a higher opinion on a coin than someone else? are you saying that pcgs's opinion of YOUR coins is more important than YOUR OWN BIASED OPINION? if you think a coin is "choice", & pcgs doesn't, why is that bad? since when has it become unacceptable in this country to have a "bias" to what one thinks is "above average"?
<< <i>WHICH IS NOT INSURED IF IT IS WRONG TO THE DOWNSIDE (I.E. UNDERGRADED). DON'T LIKE THOSE TERMS? SIMPLE - DON'T SUBMIT, OR BRING YOUR BUSINESS TO THE GRADING COMPANY THAT DOES INSURE UNDERGRADED COINS (OR MAYBE CALL LLOYDS OF LONDON AND PURCHASE AN INSURANCE POLICY AGAINST PCGS' UNDERGRADING YOUR COIN - I HEAR THEY INSURE JUST ABOUT ANYTHING. >>
so in your opinion, there is nothing wrong w/ selling coins for less than what they are worth? OK, everyone, raise your hands if you would ENJOY selling your undergraded coins for less than what they're worth. wondercoins, i'd like to do business w/ you.
finally, get a clue, "guarantee" is not equal to "insurance".
K S
Gilbert,
To answer the specific question, the idea and concept of slabbing was introduced by Alan Hager in the early 1980's. The general concept was then purchased by PCGS, which, in 1986, made a venture to have third party grading facilitate the 'trading' of coins, that is, buying and selling a guaranteed grade, liquidity and authenticity. The idea of electronic trading soon followed, with the advent of ANE(American Numismatic Exchange, since defunct) operated by a mere handful of the nations major coin dealers. Electronic trading was and is supposedly a 'want list' for these dealers. Unfortunately, over time, the concept was perverted as to now represent was the graded slab value is. Which is an illusion, since not all coins in a specific grade can trade for that amount, often there are no buyers, not even the posted trader, for that coin in that grade. So the idea of sight unseen trading has made some major changes over the 11 years. It can and never will be the 'investment' trading like many have predicted would mirror wall street stock trading. As far as 'insurance', yes, there is more piece of mind, but there is no guarantee that someone will actually want to buy the coin, at a certain price, at a certain time.
TRUTH
K S
DK: "INSURANCE POLICY" was in quotes. Stop taking colloquial references and trying to formalize them. And, if you understand what I was trying to say, don't presuppose that simply because a coin collector is new to the hobby that he is not as smart as you and does not understand the English language. THIS IS A FALSE ASSUMPTION BY YOU THAT SIMPLY BECAUSE SOMEONE READING THIS BOARD IS NEW TO COIN COLLECTING THAT HE WILL NOT UNDERSTAND THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE AS WELL AS YOU. FALSE, FALSE, FALSE. I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE RESPECT FOR YOU EITHER. "GET A CLUE". ARE WE THROUGH YET?
WONDERCOIN
i don't take the slabs that seriously i guess. when i'm buying the slab on ebay the grade definitely does have meaning - as i can't see it. when i get the coin the slab the coin either appeals to me or it doesn't - the grade on the slab loses it's meaning because i can now view it first-hand.
i equate it to having your car appraised. my girlfriend recently had her car appraised by Carmax for $4,000 even though it's in great condition and blue-books for $8,500. we laughed at him and walked out. this doesn't mean i have to go sell the car right now noting it's $4,000 appraisal.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
lol.
IMO, if someone's buying or selling a piece of plastic with a number on it without any knowledge of grading, then there is no fool-proof way of protecting that person.
i don't really buy coins i know nothing about. if i do, i acknowledge the fact that i'm mostly likely going to overpay for whatever i get, slabbed or not. when i look back on the coins i bought before i knew what i was doing - i was burned on many. i paid double in some cases of what i'd pay now.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
I would much rather buy raw coins. Something about holding a raw Morgan (properly) in your hand makes collecting fun to me. That being said...Even with a couple years experience under my belt now, I find myself STILL getting burned on buying cleaned or somehow messed with dollars. I have a pretty good eye for grading, but not seeing the things like cleaning. Plus...I don't know how anybody can grade a coin AU...that one still stumps me.
I've taken to buying the higher dollar value coins in slabs because I want the guarantee that the coin is authentic and can be reasonably sure that the grade is accurate. I'm not a registry guy...I'm not looking for the blazing gems...in most cases 62-63 for my UNCs is good enough for me. I'm just tired of buying "damaged goods"....and if I waited until I felt completely competent in my grading skills...well I'd have a lot of grading guides but no coins in my collection.
Secondly, most people are complicated and "anti-modern" folks may have several objectives, not just one.
One objective may be to feel good about themselves by being helpful - like keeping a child from wandering into traffic. The non-altruistic aspect to that is that we all want to feel good about ourselves and helping someone convinces us that we are good.
Another may be the confirmation of our own interests. If a fellow comes to collecting and rejects moderns for classics, the anti-modern guy might feel affirmed - both he and the newbie agree that classics are better than moderns.
Another reason with regard to why some dealers in classics are anti-modern is that they want more buyers for their goods. If a guy spends 10k on moderns, its 10k he doesn't spend on classics.
I'm "anti-modern", generally speaking, because i like the way i feel when i help people by steering them into classics.
One final group of thoughts. Moderns are cool (not as cool as classics, in my opinion) but more importantly, cheap. Not everyone can afford coins that cost thousands of dollars. (And some people just crave perfection, and perfection is cheap with moderns and excruciatingly expense with classics.) And moderns are probably bound to get cheaper still. As long as that is known by the person buying moderns, then all is well.
Coins can be just a hobby and most hobbies are black holes for money. Buying moderns may just be another one of them. Nothing wrong with that. If you want to spend your money on a hobby, go for it. If you can develop an interest in classic coinage and it can gratify you like modern coinage, I say all the better.
adrian
<< <i>like keeping a child from wandering into traffic. >>
Like a Catcher in the Rye.
Nice post Adrian.
Clankeye