What a customer should NOT do...
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
Well, we've had our bashing threads, but they just get too personal for anyone to learn anything. So let's have an informal thread that passes on to us collectors just what you shouldn't do if you value a relationship with a coin dealer.
Second hand, here's some things that drive dealers crazy:
Order a coin on approval just prior to going on vacation so you're sure to tie the dealer's inventory up for at least two weeks.
Promise a check by a certain date and get around to it several weeks later. Who cares they've got payroll to meet and bills to pay? Or even better, bargain a few % off the price with the promise of immediate payment and then leave for your vacation without paying!
Get mad at the dealer when he won't take all your esoteric varieties in trade on that magnificent pop 1 coin that everyone and their brother needs (including you). Never mind the fact that he had to pay with a ready check (and too much) to get it knowing that it's liquid and has to sell it for full price and for instant money.
Return every coin you've ever ordered, even the super PQ ones, for various reasons such as they won't upgrade, you want a white coin (even tho the scan shows it's colored), your tax return is due (then why'd you order it?).
Build a fantastic collection utilizing the dealer's advice, hard work and connections. Then, dump the coins in auction without letting the dealer have a shot at either buying the collection or giving you advice on where to put them to maximize their value. Sure, they might get a percent finder's fee from an auction house, but they also might save you money on the commission, too.
Order a coin on approval and shop the coin around to see if it's an upgrade or if someone will let you flip it to them for a profit. Return it when you can't.
Bug a dealer over and over about a coin that you just have to have. Then, when he finally finds it and sends it to you, either dicker too hard on price or return it with some made up reason.
Commit to purchasing a coin causing the dealer to commit on it and then back out leaving the dealer holding unwanted inventory.
Show a great coin that you haven't bought yet to another dealer and tell him where you got it. Allow him to badmouth the coin and ruin the deal, even tho the coin is quite nice.
Dealers have any more to add? THIS IS NOT A BASHING THREAD, IT'S A TEACHING THREAD. BE POLITE!
Second hand, here's some things that drive dealers crazy:
Order a coin on approval just prior to going on vacation so you're sure to tie the dealer's inventory up for at least two weeks.
Promise a check by a certain date and get around to it several weeks later. Who cares they've got payroll to meet and bills to pay? Or even better, bargain a few % off the price with the promise of immediate payment and then leave for your vacation without paying!
Get mad at the dealer when he won't take all your esoteric varieties in trade on that magnificent pop 1 coin that everyone and their brother needs (including you). Never mind the fact that he had to pay with a ready check (and too much) to get it knowing that it's liquid and has to sell it for full price and for instant money.
Return every coin you've ever ordered, even the super PQ ones, for various reasons such as they won't upgrade, you want a white coin (even tho the scan shows it's colored), your tax return is due (then why'd you order it?).
Build a fantastic collection utilizing the dealer's advice, hard work and connections. Then, dump the coins in auction without letting the dealer have a shot at either buying the collection or giving you advice on where to put them to maximize their value. Sure, they might get a percent finder's fee from an auction house, but they also might save you money on the commission, too.
Order a coin on approval and shop the coin around to see if it's an upgrade or if someone will let you flip it to them for a profit. Return it when you can't.
Bug a dealer over and over about a coin that you just have to have. Then, when he finally finds it and sends it to you, either dicker too hard on price or return it with some made up reason.
Commit to purchasing a coin causing the dealer to commit on it and then back out leaving the dealer holding unwanted inventory.
Show a great coin that you haven't bought yet to another dealer and tell him where you got it. Allow him to badmouth the coin and ruin the deal, even tho the coin is quite nice.
Dealers have any more to add? THIS IS NOT A BASHING THREAD, IT'S A TEACHING THREAD. BE POLITE!
0
Comments
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
And, all the while, the Dealer has to keep up that happy grin on his face to continue to feed your ego and vanity.
peacockcoins
and some will and do take advantage of dealers who are trying to do bussiness in
a fair manner in a difficult environment. Well done!
Camelot
Your points are well taken. I offer the following as a customer:
Don't tell me what a awful coin I'm offering you, forgetting it was a "monster" when I bought it from you.
Don't sell my coin, then tell me it was offered on approval and that the buyer will get the money to you when they return from vacation.
Don't pretend to forget the coin when it turns green in the holder - I paid a premium for the coin based on your advice that it was original.
Don't charge me top dollar for the coin and then expect me to sell it to you for a low-ball offer when I know the auction route will raise more money.
Don't represent me at auction and ignore my preferences, sticking me with a substandard coin just so you can get the commission.
Don't get offended when I reject the dog that's been rejected by all the other customers before me.
Don't commit to represent me at auction, knowing full well that you are going to outbid me yourself. I would appreciate knowiing my bid isn't competitive and having the opportunity to up it.
Quit calling regarding coins I don't want - I sent you my want list for a reason.
Don't wonder why I'm not a customer when you ignore my want list and pretend you never received it.
Don't wonder why I never come around your booth anymore when you ignore me or pretend to be too busy on the phone/computer. Why not put up a sign that says "wholesale to the dealer community only, collectors not welcome".
Don't post such crummy pics on the internet that I'm essentially buying sight unseen - my time is valuable too - don't waste it.
I could come up with 10 more - I think you get the jest. It works both ways.
I try not to tie up his money, but sometimes it happens. But, I've never had to return a coin and I've always purchased any coin that I've harped on him to find.
I guess I'm not that bad.
It's that I want them to buy the dang coin just because I think the coin is nice... Rather, they should be able to make up their mind and either buy it or move on. But, they just stand there, tie up time, space and my precious limited patience. And, they'll do it some more. I've had more than one dealer friend remark about this to me.
One of these friends took over a year of hemming and hawing over a key date CC Seated 25c that I finally walked up to friend and dealer (also friend) and just said: ``Dude, sh1t or get off the pot!''
Now, hopefully this thread will get buried by Monday so my friend won't see this!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Don't spread all your paperwork and notes all over the top of the dealers glass cases while you look through his inventory of 1972 pennies! We don't care how far you are on your set of raw VG Lincoln cents! PUT THE DANG PAPERWORK AWAY!
Show a little respect to the dealer AND other people!
Dave
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Build a fantastic collection utilizing the dealer's advice, hard work and connections. Then, dump the coins in auction without letting the dealer have a shot at either buying the collection
I thought if I paid for the coins then they are mine to do as I wish? If the dealer has given advice and done hard work has he not already been paid?
Various observations we make of dealers or collectors are viewed as bashing only by those who see themselves!
Oh, what a wonderful world it would be!
Desert Lizard - you are certainly welcome to that attitude. I prefer to build a relationship that might serve me well even AFTER I sell my collection. You never know when you might get back into coins or have another use for a loyal dealer. But since they're your coins and you can do what you want with them, stick them in auction and pay a 5% seller's fee and be happy.
Don't stoop over the Dealer's case and then yank out your 1977 Blue Book and begin to quote what his prices should really be!!
(On a serious note: Dicker over price, but NEVER over grade!!)
peacockcoins
TRUTH
How about this one TDN: When one sells a super PQ coin to a collector and it does upgrade just as expected and the collector makes a nice boatload of money on the upgrade, how about a thank you - a nice handwritten card or some flowers or chocolates or a bottle or something nice
A dealer sold me a pattern coin last month for my personal collection that upgraded and the upgrade should, one day, make me a nice pile of cash. I invited the dealer and his wife out to dinner in LA this weekend at the finest restaurant they chose. That is the least I can to thank the dealer for selling me such a premium coin for my collection
The last coin show I went to had a dude walking around with his dress shirt inside out. Bugged the heck out of me. It was weird, and it looked real uncomfortable.
Reason not to do this: You not only tend to lose credibility with the dealer, you look like a fool, and most importantly, you give the rest of us a bad name!
Dave
PS Man, I hope it wasn't a board member
<< <i>One more thing. Wear your dang shirt right side out. The last coin show I went to had a dude walking around with his dress shirt inside out. Bugged the heck out of me. It was weird, and it looked real uncomfortable. Reason not to do this: You not only tend to lose credibility with the dealer, you look like a fool, and most importantly, you give the rest of us a bad name! Dave PS Man, I hope it wasn't a board member
Hey! I thought looking like a bum got you $45.00 coins for $37.00?!?
peacockcoins
<< <i>Build a fantastic collection utilizing the dealer's advice, hard work and connections. Then, dump the coins in auction without letting the dealer have a shot at either buying the collection
I thought if I paid for the coins then they are mine to do as I wish? If the dealer has given advice and done hard work has he not already been paid? >>
DL,
They are your coins to do as you please. But, it is also a commonly accepted practice of courtesy to acknowledge the dealer's role in the accomplishment. I record much data about each coin in my collection, including how I acquired the coin. For those who've had a significant role in the building of my sets, I tell them that I can't promise how I'll end up disposing of my coins. But, I will try hard to find a way to have them receive as much acknowledgement as possible.
The truth is that I won't be selling the meat of my collection until a few decades from now (with any luck!). By then, who knows which dealers will still be active? Chances are that I will choose the auction route, and I will likely insist that the cataloging acknowledge each dealer with each lot. At the very least, I will remember the good dealers!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
The one that really annoys me the most is when you ship someone a coin(s) on approval and they tell you they need to think about it for a day or two, or show it to their partner or whatever. Whenever I receive a coin in the mail, I can look at it for 5 seconds and make a decision.
dragon
<< <i>Whenever I receive a coin in the mail, I can look at it for 5 seconds and make a decision. >>
I agree, although I'm still looking at my 50p Frankie!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Respectfully, it shouldn't really make any difference on the value of the coin, be it 50.00 or 50000.00.......you either agree with the grade/price and like the coin, or you don't IMO.
As far as being able to afford it, you should know that before you receive it, or even ask to see it on approval.
dragon
TRUTH
I don't understand that comment. Why is it too much to ask to follow thru on normal business ethics (treat a dealer like you wish to be treated)? A dealership is a business and runs on normal business principles. A dealer should expect a prompt decision, prompt payment and no shopping of his coin around. Same for a collector.
Is that so much to ask that you give up collecting?
<< <i>many of the dealer perspective comments in this thread are why most of my collection is now for sale
I don't understand that comment. Why is it too much to ask to follow thru on normal business ethics (treat a dealer like you wish to be treated)? A dealership is a business and runs on normal business principles. A dealer should expect a prompt decision, prompt payment and no shopping of his coin around. Same for a collector.
Is that so much to ask that you give up collecting? >>
actually, the deeper I get into collecting the more I feel it is an "us (dealers) against them (collectors)" mentality.
I have spent a good deal of time in coin shops, and I am continuously scratching my head when dealers show me a "score" they picked up. A gold coin they paid $400.00 for and sold for $2700.00, for example.
I get frustrated when I purchase a nice coin and show it to another dealer who tells me it is junk and I got robbed. Not that it is, but more that the only coins worth buying are that dealers, and anything else is trash.
I get frustrated when I stop in a shop and the dealer tells me he has just bought an entire collection of Morgan Dollars and anything in the collection I can have first shot at. I look the collection over and see many nice coins, and many so so coins, and a number of coins with tell tale green spotting. This is 4:00 in the afternoon. I tell the dealer I am interested in a number of purchases to fill out my collection, and a number of upgrades. "How long before you do anything with this?" He tells me he isn't going to touch the coins for three days. We agree I will come back in two days with my Morgan collection to make comparisons and select the coins I want to buy. However, I make it clear I could be back the next morning of he has a sense of urgency. "Not neccessary, I have an appointment with a seller all day tomorrow"
Two days later, bright and early I return, Morgan albums and slabs in hand. The coins are out of the albums and in flips, and they are all bright and shiney. "Are these the same coins?" - Oh yeah - I dipped them all.
Keep in mind the dealer has my want list. "Where's the 95-S?" - "I sold it"
"I like the 94-S, but it looks a little good to be true." Send it out for grading, and I will pay you for the grading now, if it comes back in a slab, I'll buy it for the price marked", "er, um, ok". Six weeks later, it still hasn't been sent out, because the dealer knows it won't grade.
I get frustrated when I get shown a coin - in this case a three legged buffalo - for $375. "I want it, I'll pick it up Saturday when I come in" Keep in mind, when I say Saturday, I mean Saturday, and I have never not followed through with cash in hand. Saturday comes and I go to pick up my coin. "I sent it out for grading" I didn't ask for it to be graded. The next week it comes back graded much higher. The price is now $655.00.
I get frustrated when I get told one price on Monday and a different price in Wednesday for the same item - still in stock.
I get frustrated when I buy a coin for a price, and a couple of months later, when I see an upgrade, the coin I bought is worth 30% less. "But I bought it from you for $X" - No, you must have bought that from someone else.
I get frustrated when I take a 48 Franklin FBL Franklin half to a dealer for an opinion and he tells me the bell lines have been scribed, and the coin is worth melt. When I trade it and a few other halves to him, I see it in his case at a show as an FBL.
I get frustrated when I see dealers low ball unknowing sellers amd rejoice in the 6-800% score after the seller leaves.
I get frustrated when a dealer raves over a coin in my collection, then a month later, when I consider selling the coin, it's suddenly nothing special and worth half what it was a month before.
My policies were simple:
I never haggled on price. The price listed is the price I would pay.
I never took a coin from the shop without paying, even though the courtesy was offered every time I said I would pick it up on a certain day.
When I said I would pick it up on a certain day - I always did so.
Like I said, just a few of the reasons the majority of my collection is up for sale.
Its too bad you didnt get the chance to deal with some of the good guys in the field. I guess
location is everything, as to whether good coin companies are in your area. I hope you get a good
price for your collection and will find another hobby that will give you some fun and peace of mind.
Camelot
Funny story: I was wearing a pair of pants today that I just bought. Went to today's coin show, checked things out for about an hour. Went home, and noticed that after I went home, I still had two huge labels still on the pants that I forgot to take off. hahaha
<< <i>I get frustrated when I take a 48 Franklin FBL Franklin half to a dealer for an opinion and he tells me the bell lines have been scribed, and the coin is worth melt. When I trade it and a few other halves to him, I see it in his case at a show as an FBL. >>
OF ALL THE NERVE!
<< <i>When I trade it and a few other halves to him, >>
Next time trade it to Lucy, I would have given more!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
First: IT IS NOT DEALERS vs. COLLECTORS unless YOU make it that way. Whether people want to accept it or not, the dealer community HAS worked very hard to clean up its act. I can't speak for what goes on in shops, but at least with my peers, they try very hard to work by the line: the customer is number one.
My biggest problem that collectors do to us: slow pay. I know I'm not alone. If you need time-say so! We do. People think dealers make so much money they can wait to be paid. NOT TRUE. This is an extremely cash intense biz. You can't just commit on a coin and then pay whenever. Out of courtousy, you owe it to your dealer to say if you need to make payments or if there will be a delay. Bad behavior in this category DOES penalize you with dealers-no matter how much you spend. And don't add to the violation by bidding in an auction while your dealer is waiting to be paid...
Another bad area: Trade ins. To expect a dealer to take coins in on a "hot" item, especially if they didn't sell you the coins in the first place is wrong. If you have a good relationship with a dealer, it doesn't mean you can bully them in this area. Many times due to cash flow, dealers want or need the cash more than a trade.
Another thing we just had happen. Don't lie. Don't tell us you just pad x for a coin when we happen to know the coin, the dealer, and know for a fact you paid y. Not only does it NOT get you the coin you are trying to buy any cheaper, but you damage your credibilty with the dealer. You certainly won't be getting early shots at the better stuff by acting like a boob!
And at major shows, yeah, try not to waste a unfamilar dealers time (someone you don't do biz with). Its bad to show them coins you've been buying from someone else just to get their opinions. Its not so much a do not disturb thing, as you put the dealer on the spot with their opinion. No one knows who, what, where, or what version the information could end up in.
We as dealers sometimes think its collectors vs. us. You just can't imagine half of what collectors do to us! And NO 99% of it is NOT warranted. Believe it or not, dealers are people too!
Laura Sperber
lsperber1@hotmail.com
www.legendcoin.com
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
Frank,
Either you have a serious attitude problem, or you are completely incompetent in conducting yourself in the coin industry. I skimmed through the rest of your post, and it seems that you're a magnet for the worst possible treatment imaginable. As such, perhaps you can save yourself further grief and just leave the hobby.
As for me, I am having a grand time. I collect, I spend, I study, I converse, I make friends and I wouldn't leave this hobby for all the tea in China -- and that's a lot of tea! I have fun because I am educated about what to buy and how much to spend. I have fun because I am deliberate in choosing the people I engage.
Do I always have fun? No. Do I ever get annoyed at a dealer? Yes. Do I feel the industry is to blame? Sometimes. Do I still try to make the best of it? Heck yeah!
As you leave this hobby, please realize that you're actually doing the hobby a great deal of good. Your departure removes a very negative attitude, and it also removes a source of income from the bad dealers. So, as you leave, please know that I'll be waving to you and wishing you the best in your other endeavors. May the sun always be on your face, and the wind always be at your back.
Regards,
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
SarasotaFrank has unfortunately been exposed to primarily the type of person I would not want to deal with either as a collector or as a dealer. Hang in there, Frank, there are a lot of good people out there.
I have come to this thread late but will add that I really get irritated when a customer looks and looks at a coin and asks me for a price and I give it to them and then asks for my absolute best price and I honestly tell them what I need for the coin only to have them counter with a 10% reduction in that price. In the passed I have simply asked them for the coin back and told them I did not want to do business with them.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
It is definitely an US vs THEM situation -- if you live in a world where making excuses and blaming others for your woes is acceptable. It is never ok to rip someone else off -- not morally, ethically or oftentimes even legally.
But, let's face it: we all have to accept some responsibility some time for our own actions. If you want to spend your hard earned cash on collectibles without an inkling of what you're really doing, then don't expect the world to treat you with kid gloves.
If you're going to be so bitter as to say that everyone else is a scumbag just because you were too ignorant and/or foolish to educate yourself on coins before engaging yourself financially in coins, then I say that you need to wake up and smell the coffee. The world is both big and bad as well as big and beautiful. What you get out of it is up to you. You can't keep on blaming the scumbags who take advantage of you for your mistakes. At some point, you have to realize that it is you who is allowing yourself to be taken advantage of!
My advice: grow up, keep your mouth shut, listen, learn, be careful, and take responsibility for your own situation. After all this, then you're more qualified to make constructive commentary.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
TDN - thanks for starting this thread - it's been educational to reflect on the issues.
Quick, turn on CNN. WSM and I are in agreement. In fact, I emphatically agree with him on this point. To quote the ``golden'' rule from someone who likes his gold coins...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
YOU WANT HOW MUCH? Man, that's a rip-off. It's in the graysheet for $39.
WHO TAUGHT YOU HOW TO GRADE? That's a 63, not 65.
then
You're acting like you don't want to deal with me!
At my current buying level $10- $2000 dollar coins there are obviously MORE dealers in business than in Legend's area of sales $1000 - millions ( this is approx, I know you do have some slightly cheaper, but no less attractive coins on your site). Just playing those odds there's bound to be more slimeball dealers in the lower price ranges, the slimeballs USUALLY don't get to the successful place where they can sell $100k coins. My local dealer, is unfortuneatly of the same breed that sarasota frank's is, rude, a blatant liar, and a thief. I have found other dealers, yes, and most are not in this class. But it is very frustrating as a customer to have those bad apples, especially compared to some of the other forum members posts about the nice dealers you've all delt with. I haven't found the right dealer yet, either on the internet or at home, but I'll keep looking. I enjoy the hobby, but I just hope that the next dealer I visit doesn't think about what overgraded coin he can stuff in my collection. That's when it's us vs them...
I'm not trying to bad mouth any dealers here, just my unfortunate local experience.
With all due respect, I think in that situation it is: you vs a$$hole. It still isn't, IMO, an ``us vs them'' situation.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Simply dealers need customers, and customers need dealers. If a customer is treated fairly they will return.
Human nature is to complain about bad experiences and take pride in good experiences. If dealers can minimize the bad experiences, their will be little or no complaints.
And, yes, some customers need to chill. If I am in a shop, and another customer comes in, let me continue to look, you know what I am looking at, and tell me, that you are going to help customer B, there is no need to hover over me like I am going to steal your coins. I don't want to steal your coins I want to purchase them.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>As you leave this hobby, please realize that you're actually doing the hobby a great deal of good. Your departure removes a very negative attitude,
Regards,
EVP >>
well, gee, thanks EVP, your attitude certainly makes me feel better about mine.
Also I would like to add that at shows. ALL of us dealers have many things going on at these shows, its very hectic at times. If we do not give you our full attention it is becasue we just don't have the time or the man power. I think we all feel bad that we can't give the customer's our full attention and take our time with each and eveyone of you, we really want to! After all the buyer is the person that pays our bills..
Gary
fairtraderz eBay auctions
There are two dealers close by in my area. One is a dick such as Frank described. The kind that wouldn't hesitate to nail a widow for the husband's collection, flip it for an obscene profit and not even blink an eye. I figured that out in the first time I was in his shop, and haven't bothered to go back.
The other is a great guy; friendly, honest old style businessman who's had his shop for nearly 30 years. He treats even the tiniest customer with courtesy and respect, and doesn't hesitate to give of his knowledge. He usually doesn't have anything I need, but whenever I visit his shop I make a point of buying at least something, even if it's just some supplies.
Russ, NCNE
EVP, if you would care to come out of your rareified atmosphere you'd realize that there are MANY local dealers that behave in the manner Frank describes. To chalk it up as somehow all his fault smacks of telling the sexily dressed lady who's been assaulted that "Hey babe, lookatcha. You was asking fer it." Get over yourself.
Great dealers abound. Jon at RCONH immediately comes to mind. But I don't absolve less-than-stellar dealers of their behavior at the expense of collectors like Frank.
<< <i>There are two dealers close by in my area. One is a dick such as Frank described. The kind that wouldn't hesitate to nail a widow for the husband's collection, flip it for an obscene profit and not even blink an eye. I figured that out in the first time I was in his shop, and haven't bothered to go back.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ:
thanks for the voice of reason. Unfortunately, my experiences are kind of a summation of about a half dozen different dealers around my area. I am certain there are great dealers for ultra high end collectors, but for the average collector (I might spend $15,000 a year) it's a crapshoot.
You are also right about business. I have run my own business for 25 years, and if I have learned anything it is that you have no control over how much money comes in (make that very little control), but you have a lot of control over how much money goes out. Coin dealers at what I would describe the pedestrian level have to be able to buy low and sell normal to high in order to keep the doors open. Buying low is one thing, and misrepresenting the value to a good faith seller is something else.
I witnessed a dismayed seller showing some albums to a dealer a while back. The seller was upset because they did not realize that the coins would "tarnish" over the years in albums. "Are these worth anything like this?"
"well, they're still worth something" (which was not a mistruth)
he promptly bought them for a song and sold them as "monsters"