Is everyone a coin dealer
ScarsdaleCoin
Posts: 5,258 ✭✭✭✭✭
Just something to think about.....since the birth of the www and ebay....seems to me everyone is a coin dealer....of course I mentioned this to a fellow dealer at a show this weekend and he informed me that I am way off the mark...that these people are just collectors doing trading....dont know about that...seems to be that everyone who comes up to me is a dealer or at least asks to pay grey sheet....LOL have a great day!
Jon Lerner - Scarsdale Coin - www.CoinHelp.com
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Comments
Well of course I'm gonna ask to pay grey sheet
I happen to be trying my hand at the internet dealer part now. I have some sources to aquire coins through and from local/regional/national shows. I am doing it because I enjoy running a business (I own my own Passport and Visa Expediting company) and making a profit. The profit margin is small in coins. Will I become wealthy doing business this way, No. Will I gain valuable experience in dealing and the hobby as a whole, YES.
To me it is a win win situation for me. 2 different things that interest me.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>yes, you're all dealers and Laura hates every last one of you! >>
Well Frank...once we get our deal closed...I guess she'll hate you too
Tom
<< <i>So what, I should pay Redbook for something that a "dealer" buys at 70% of GS ask?? >>
Exactly my sentiment too. Most dealers pay 70% of sheet, some a lot less. Also the occasional RIP from unknowledgeable sellers. So greysheet is a fair price. I've paid full retail for about 5 pieces in my whole collection (probably about 400 pieces). They were drop dead gorgeous, pq, rock solid for the grade.
coins you can go very long times without seeing thier equal.
Thanks to eBay, now I can at least get a decent price for my duplicates. No offense to dealers, God knows I wouldn't want the job, but I have met several who harbor nothing but sour grapes since there is now an outlet for collectors to realize decent money for their money. Just my always ever-so humble collector's opinion
Cheers,
Bob
The difference is we can't survive without food...we'll do just fine without coins...well...maybe we'll do just ok...well...we might have withdrawls...well...alright...we'll kick and scream and stomp our feet...but we still could do without them
Cheers,
Bob
I think Comet eBay flew over the earth and now everyone on the planet is a coin dealer instead--except for one guy. Our job is to find him and sell him our coins.
Clankeye
Nobody (least of all me) begrudges anyone a living or fair profit. We all make choices in life as to what our vocations and hobbies will be and we have to live and die by those choices. But believe me, if I can maximize what I have through legal and moral means I will. If you click the link to my other hobby, you'll see that for me it's a question of balance. Both are very expensive to partake in. Both give me an incredible amount of joy for a return. However, I could lose my butt on either one if not careful...just like a coin dealer
Cheers,
Bob
E-bay tends to even the playing field slightly, because before that a fair price was hard to evaluate.
The best bet for Business dealers, in mu humble opinion is, the "want list" program and passing savings because of their negotiating skills on to the collector.
If the collector can buy it almost as inexpensively as the dealer... then the difference is chalked up to FUN.
This is just my opinion.
Dan
<< <i>but I have met several who harbor nothing but sour grapes since there is now an outlet for collectors to realize decent money for their money. >>
Ain't the free market great?
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I once wrote a short story I called "The Amateur Hour." >>
Hey Clank,
Back in my drinking days, I used to call New Year's Eve amateur night.
Russ, NCNE
Now we know why you act like you do......a "blow boat!"
From what little I know about blow boats you do have two very expensive hobbies!
Check out my PQ selection of Morgan & Peace Dollars, and more at:
WWW.PQDOLLARS.COM or WWW.GILBERTCOINS.COM
Observations. Ebay has forced a fundamental change in the market. This places the traditional dealer at somewhat of a disadvantage. Since there is no licensing of coin dealers there is no barrier to entry. I can easily procure coins in large volumes and turn them on ebay where the bidding and lust for coins drives up prices. Is this fair, no. But life is not fair. The same rules for business hold true as they did before ebay.
1. Treat your customers right. Don't cheat them, rip them, or sell substandard products. (This is for any product or service)
2. Back up the sale with service. If your not there after the sales the customer will go to someone who does have time for him.
3. Make your money across every sale not on one sale. Remember, 8% - 12% is a good profit. Did you take economics??
4. When times get hard, put your shoulder to the wheel harder.
There will be a influx of dealers while there appears to be a nominal profit being made. Once the appearance of profitability falls away less people will enter the competition.
Same thing happened in my industry.
I am a Computer Systems Engineer. I attended school for electronics engineering many years before I got my first job. After I graduated I work from the bottom up before I participated on a team that designed an industry winning computer system. Now that I have some tenure, I see everyone and thier brother trying to enter my industry. Most think you can just step in by passing some tests and becoming an MCSE. So now there are so many people that you can't turn around without hitting an MCSE. These guys and gals could not find 2s complement anymore than I can go out and become as knowledgeable as David Hall, or Legends, or any of you who have focused your career on numismatics.
Best regards, I'll step off my soap box now
Dan
First Place Winner of the 2005 Rampage design contest!
RKFISH: I think my other hobby beats this one hands down for cost
MEOS1: Very well articulated
Cheers,
Bob
Don't they know you for your sign, it says something about not accepting GS due to overhead?
<< <i>So what, I should pay Redbook for something that a "dealer" buys at 70% of GS ask?? >>
i don't think grey-sheet is dealer-to-retail, is it? isn't it dealer-to-dealer? if so, then 70% of greysheet sounds like it ought to be close to wholesale.
i don't think "dealer" can be defined by pricing level. the actual act of buying & selling is a significant, but really rather small part of the business (i'd think). much more time would be spent traveling, advertising, attending auctions, haggling, etc.
although i do considerably better, i wouldn't consider 70% of greysheet an unreasonable offer to the public on coins.
K S
In some of your postings I detect a note of bitterness that there are now venues other than dealers for collectors to use when buying AND SELLING coins. This is much like the bitterness that was in many industries when fair trade laws gave way to market pricing of many products 20 or more years ago. Much like the bitterness on the part of the large telcos (locals and AT&T) when the telecom inductry was deregulated. I pay 4c a minute for long distance. And the carrier makes money! Do you really believe I would have this rate if we still had a telecom monopoly? While I WON'T say that the coin industry is a monopoly in any sense, historically, dealers have been the only game in town. But with the advent of the Internet, eBay and other online auction venues, we collectors have more options available to us. So now, a dealer has to provide value for his services (in addition to providing coins). Is this bad? I submit that it is not bad, but rather it is a good thing for the hoppy and the industry. Sure, some dealers will be weeded out, but there is always room for a reputable, honezst, and KNOWLEDGABLE dealer. I am certainly willing to pay for knowledge and connections. I have a bunch of coins on consignment to a dealer right now---why? Because I feel that with his knowledge and contacts I will net a comparable (or maybe even greater) amount of money (after paying the commission) than I would selling them myself. And he does all the work!! So in short I am paying for knwoledge and a service. Similarly in buying coins, many never make it to the auctions. Again, dealers with their collector contacts place the coins privately. A service I will continue to use dealers for.
What is gone probably forever is the ability of an inept, unknowledgable dealer to sit in his shop, and sit behind his table at shows and have a stream of coins flow through making him 30% as they pass through his hands. These dealeres will either need to learn enough and work enough to add some value, or they will be out of business. And in my opinion that is the way it should be. I don't think you have to be big --- you don't need to be a 'Legend' or a 'B & M' or a 'Heritage' to succeed in the industry. But you do need to be knowledgable and offer something of value (knowledge) to your customers.
Pete
Yes, I took economics (at least 6 classes at the college level) and it is near impossible to make a profit on every coin. The value of the coin is constantly changing and if you force yourself to make a profit on every coin, you'll be holding some coins for a very long time. Also, you have to associate your holding costs. Many times it is better to dump coins (anything) at a loss and make up this hit on other items.
There will be a influx of dealers while there appears to be a nominal profit being made. Once the appearance of profitability falls away less people will enter the competition.
Having talked to several forum members and friends that have tried to make a profit on eBay, they quickly realize that the money isn't easy there. They soon realize how much the eBay and PayPal fees eat into their profit and the time required to handle the auctions.
I have been buying original rolls from an old time collector (I am a collector) because his local dealer offered 40% of CDN bid. Now this collector did a quick search on Ebay and found he was getting ripped so I have been buying them paying CDN bid. Because I paid attention to the quality I know I can sell them for well over CDN ask on Ebay. If the dealer had been smart, he would have offered a more reasonable offer because he had a better understanding of the market (Ebay) and could sell them the next day at a 20% profit, instead of a 100% profit.
In a sense most collectors have always been dealers as well. Its just that when we purchased a coin and decided at a latter time to sell it, the brick and mortar dealer, needing to make a profit, had to offer us less than we paid. You have to look at it from both sides, to the collector this did not seem fair, so now with Ebay we are part time dealers as well.
EVERYONE...and that means EVERYONE! Collectors AND dealers alike have got to realize that there is a more savvy buying public and more astute and comprehensive dealer network and we all must make adjustments.
DEALERS: You are not the ONLY game in town anymore so GET OVER IT!
COLLECTORS: Sure you can get a better deal elsewhere...eBay, Yahoo, et al...but you get what you pay for. If you want to fill holes then some of these venues are fine. But, if you want personal service and high-end grades, then you have to pay the price.
Nice-to-have coins I buy on eBay. Premium coins for my classic commem type set I go with a dealer. I very rarely find these on eBay.
Just my two-cents and opinion. Okay...FLAME ON!
Cheers,
Bob
Remember a couple years ago when all was right with the world...internet stocks were going thru the roof...and the "common man" said..."I don't need no stinkin' stock broker, I can trade on line !"
Well...now the internet trading sites are raising fees and not doing well, as people need advice.
I think the same can be said for the coin world.....I've filled a lot of holes buying off Yahoo and ebay, and have make some less than pleasant mistakes as well. The same with traditional dealers.
I agree that today's dealer can't expect to get full retail Trends for his coins...unless 1) They're PQ...2) they're a tough date...or 3) the customer comes in the door with a Tootsie Pop wrapper around their head. The retail industry in numismatics...like everywhere else...has to (I hate this saying) shift that paradigm.
Times have changed. I will probably never sell any of my coins directly to a dealer ever again. I can and do much better on eBay. Sorry, but just a fact of current life.
On the other hand, I do buy a lot of coins from dealers because I usually get a better product and better service than a lot of "dealers" on eBay.
Joe.
While I was at the show, I didn't buy a thing. Dealers were asking much more than Trends. On ebay I can find nice qualtiy coins sold by other collectors or sometimes dealers. I'm just careful on what I bid on.
FrederickCoinClub
Whether you want to hear it or not, there is much validity to my thoughts, but they seem to always be stated wrong or misinterpreted. I'm sure there is one soul out there who understands what I mean (no, not that I'm mean)!
I know that not everyone is a dealer!
Laura Sperber
lsperber1@hotmail.com
www.legendcoin.com
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
Laura, what is the difference between a collector who deals in coins and a "Dealer"?
Dan
AHHHHH my 150th post (still a rookie)
at coin shows offer bid and most people take it. Many dealers stay in business by
buying coins from the public at 20 to 80% of bid and selling it at shows and in their
shops for bid. Many of the true retail coin buyers are buying high priced coins from
reputable companies who themselves often operate on thin margins. There does ap-
pear to be a retail pricing structure emerging, it remains to be seen how many will
pay these prices.
TBT
Last week a dealer told me he was going to go through their first shipment of Silver Eagles and out aside any he felt had a shot at MS70. He would sell them to me for $10.00 each. He told me he had done so for another customer already. This is a price I was willing to pay, as he is certainly better than I at picking winners.
Today I stopped in to pick them up and he informed me they would be $25.00 each, claiming even after grading fees I would still be ahead at $25.00.
I guess he could take all of the MS70s and send them to be graded and sell them in slabs, but doing it this way does keep the investment down. Ever since I bought a few raw coins that ended up grading higher than the price basis it has been slim pickings.
No wonder people get frustrated with this hobby.
The so-called problem is that you are blunt. I personally really like this approach (I know, that comes as a shock to everyone.
However, many forum members (and people in general) would rather be sweet talked and handled with kid gloves. That's fine, but some also view someone being blunt as..um..well.. Mean & Evil™
I've always felt it would be better for me to be blunt (and possibly considered rude and mean) and get my point across without any misunderstandings, than sweet talk someone and allow my words to be open for interpretation.
After all, I've seen several forum member make "gentle" posts about a bad dealer. Why? It's better to say "Dealer X is a scumbag that will screw you" and know full well that you've done everything you can to prevent that person from being screwed.
And just remember, if you changed yourself, you'd just be yet another bland dealer of high-end coins. We've got enough of them in the industry. You're well know for your personality.
<< <i>However, many forum members (and people in general) would rather be sweet talked and handled with kid gloves. That's fine, but some also view someone being blunt as..um..well.. Mean & Evil™ >>
personally, I don't care if they sweet talk me or tell me to take it or leave it. Either way, it's just a matter of how fragile the customer's personal vision of their self worth or capability is.
In my case, it's boundless, so now matter what a dealer who is in love with his or her self thinks, it has no impact on me. I will however, make it a point to buy from dealers with whom I can establish a relationship. In that regard I like my relationships friendly and fair.