Crossovers: Do PCGS and NGC exchange data?

MoneyLA · January 23, 2003 6:49PM

I thought that PCGS would notify NGC (and other grading services) when a coin is crossed over into a PCGS slab? By notifying the other grading service, population reports could be kept accurate.

Well, in today's mail I got a proof Washington that had been crossed OUT of an NGC holder and INTO a PCGS holder.

What I thought was curious is that the INSERT from NGC (the paper tab with the grade and ID number) was returned to me -- taped to my invoice.

Now, if PCGS and NGC were truly exchanging crossover data to keep the populations accurate, wouldn't PCGS send the insert back to NGC so NGC could keep its records correct? Or does NGC take PCGS' word for it?

I certainly don't need the removed NGC insert, but I think NGC would.

Any help or explanation here?

Thanks and cheers, alan mendelson

Steve27 · January 23, 2003 9:59PM

My guess is that they're (PCGS) leaving it up to you to return the cert to NGC (I doubt the two exchange data with each other out of fear of accusations of collusion).

cladking · January 23, 2003 10:13PM

I would expect inserts to be returned by most of the grading
services as a professional courtesy. It might be a good question
for Homerunhall though.

dbldie55 · January 23, 2003 11:10PM

<< I would expect inserts to be returned by most of the grading
services as a professional courtesy. It might be a good question
for Homerunhall though. >>

This is a joke, right?

Sunnywood · January 24, 2003 1:36AM

When you submit a slabbed coin to a grading service, the current slab and its contents belong to you. It makes perfect sense to me that the insert should be returned to the submitter. After all, it belongs to you. While I do not know whether NGC and PCGS share data (and I doubt it - they are arch rivals), I think it is the responsibility of the submitter to return the cracked out insert to the first grading service.

Feel free to disagree with me

Sunnywood

dbldie55 · January 24, 2003 1:47AM

How about an example:

The NGC site lists two 1913 Liberty Nickels, one of which is in PF66 (the Eliasberg Coin), the other the coin in the ANA museum.

PCGS lists two 1913 Liberty Nickels, 1) PR64 - The Olsen Coin and 2) PR66 - The Eliasberg coin.

Now since there is only one Eliasberg coin and this was crossed from NGC to PCGS it seems pretty clear that PCGS did not send the insert back to NGC. (maybe it wasn't really a crossover, but that is the story)

jcping · January 24, 2003 3:48PM

Don't forget that someone is collecting inserts for registry

DAM · January 24, 2003 10:42PM

<< The NGC site lists two 1913 Liberty Nickels, one of which is in PF66 (the Eliasberg Coin), the other the coin in the ANA museum.

PCGS lists two 1913 Liberty Nickels, 1) PR64 - The Olsen Coin and 2) PR66 - The Eliasberg coin. >>

Whew!! I thought you were going to say there were more coins in the pops, than coins minted. That would mean the one I found along the road a few years ago was fake.

Guess I'm still ok.

DAM · January 24, 2003 10:54PM

In all seriousness (man that's hard for me

), it's your responsibility to return the certs. In another thread I mentioned a dealer had for sale a PCGScoin. Someone had crossed it from NGC, and the cert was included.

Personally, I didn't understand why the cert wasn't sent to NGC. One, because in that case it was a low pop (total mintage) proof coin. Two, what's the point? So you can display the coin with both certs? Would this solidify the grade by showing the top 2 grading services agree on the grade?

kieferscoins · January 25, 2003 12:21AM

Even the cert populations for high grade ultra rarities are wrong for NGC.

THis last year, Larry Lee (the ANA's museum director) cracked the 1913 nickel and both 1804 dollars from their NGC holders. I asked him about the cert numbers and he said they are keeing them.

Cameron Kiefer

dbldie55 · January 25, 2003 12:26AM

<< Even the cert populations for high grade ultra rarities are wrong for NGC.

THis last year, Larry Lee (the ANA's museum director) cracked the 1913 nickel and both 1804 dollars from their NGC holders. I asked him about the cert numbers and he said they are keeing them.

Cameron Kiefer >>

Why wouldn't they keep them? They still have the coins. I have all the inserts from coins I have cracked to place in albums. The pops are only messed up when they have the "same" coin listed more than once. Does the fact these coins are not in the plastic mean they no longer exist, and thus the rest are actually rarer?

kieferscoins · January 25, 2003 12:36AM

Everyone here says that they think the cracked inserts should be returned. I gave another example. I agree that the coin isn't worth more, and there are not less of those coins out there, but if they wanted to free it of its slab and "grade is irrelevant" than the inserts should be returned. Maybe I am wrong.

Cameron Kiefer

DAM · January 25, 2003 12:54AM

<< Why wouldn't they keep them? They still have the coins. I have all the inserts from coins I have cracked to place in albums. The pops are only messed up when they have the "same" coin listed more than once. Does the fact these coins are not in the plastic mean they no longer exist, and thus the rest are actually rarer? >>

In the example I used previously, when a coin was crossed, what is the purpose of keeping the cert?

Keeping the cert for personal reasons such as:

<< I have all the inserts from coins I have cracked to place in albums. >>

doesn't inflate pop reports. Many collectors do this because they like to see the entire coin. When I remove a coin for regrade, or crossed it, I make sure to return the cert to the proper grading service.

Also, I've seen raw coins selling at a specific grade, with a cert to back up the claim. Unless it's a Photo Grade (with images), where I can compare distingishing characteristics, I don't let the cert influence my decission to buy.

coinguy1 · January 25, 2003 11:24AM

Gentlemen, to my knowledge, NGC and PCGS do not share this information.

The grading certificate belongs to the submitter, who is free to keep it or return it to the appropriate grading service.

Some coin owners prefer to retain the grading labels to show prospective buyers that each grading service has graded the coin the same way. Yes, that can work against an owner of a very rare/low population item, as the combined NGC and PCGS populations will be distorted. But, it is and should be the coin owner's choice.

tradedollarnut · January 26, 2003 9:41AM

A professional numismatist I know has a framed set of certs on his wall - from the Amazonian set!

What a momento!

tradedollarnut · January 26, 2003 10:24AM

One more thought on the matter: I emailed NGC about a prominent coin that had been crossed to PCGS but the insert not turned in. I asked them to remove the coin from their pop report in order to set the record straight - I even included a link showing where the auction stated the coin was crossed and included both insert numbers.

Their response was "no - not without the insert"!

No wonder the pop reports show 12 1884 trade dollars!

gmarguli · January 26, 2003 2:26PM

I was told by someone at PCGS that they do exchange inserts with NGC. However, since both services return most inserts to the submitter, it probably doesn't happen often, but in the rare case where the submitter doesn't want the insert back.

As for keeping the pop reports accurate, based on numbers I have heard, more inserts are returned to the grading services in a month than coins crossed over in a year.

Whitewashqtr · January 26, 2003 3:48PM

I dont know about inserts.. but it is a fact that they do exchange employees!! Just ask Rick M.

Crossovers: Do PCGS and NGC exchange data?

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