Coin discussion: 1872-S Half Dimes - Just updated
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
Below, you will (hopefully) see two 1872-S Half Dimes. They are different in a number of ways. For those who care to, please let me know which one you prefer and why. Also, what differences do you notice? Finally, go for it - guess the grades.
After forum members have had time to reply, I will blab briefly.
After forum members have had time to reply, I will blab briefly.
0
Comments
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I am a big fan of original toning, so I prefer the ``above wreath'' variety. But, the ``below wreath'' specimen you're showing has a nice deep strike, especially on the reverse.
Both are quite well struck, which I appreciate. Both, however, typically comes well struck. Anything less, and the coin should be returned.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Nope, look at the Mintmark. 1872-S Half Dimes have two distinct placements for mintmarks, one above the wreath, one below.
Mark,
Give me the toned piece any day.
The date is different between the two. The lower coin has a thick date and the upper coin has a thinner date. The reverse of the lower coin also appears to be smaller, with the thicker rim. That could easily be a strike issue, thus a figment of my imagination. Also, what could also be a trick of lighting, many features appear different on the obverses of the two. The V shape to her dress in the breast area on the lower coin does not appear on the other, or at least not nearly as strong. The arm on the lower coin appears fatter, and the shield is more pointed at the top. All of the lettering appears to be thicker than on the upper coin. All this rounds down to my opinion that the designs are from different galvanos.
Given that one is toned and the other is blast white, the selection process of which is more appealing is, although a personal and subjective issue, very simple. If you like coins that appear "just minted" you will select the lower one. If you like the rustic look, the upper one. I choose the upper coin because the toning lends to the details rather than hiding them. The blast white piece looks like it has very likely been dipped, and rather recently. No color at all on an uncirculated coin that old usually means it's been treated.
My grades - Once again, I hardly know this series and how to grade them, but I will give it a shot.
coin #1 - Assuming the scratches are on a holder and not the coin, and give the coin has exceptional eye appeal, nice luster, and what appears to be a strong strike, I will give the coin an MS66.
coin #2 - Assuming the coin isn't whizzed or cleaned in any fashion that's not apparent in the photograph, I will grade it on technical merits by what I can see. I see some small blotches of dark brown to black in the lower right obverse and reverse. I also see some small scratches above "HALF" on the reverse. The coin appears to otherwise be very clean. It does not appear to have the strike quality of the other piece, and I question its luster. Over all, MS65.
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Both are obviously very high MS.
Toned above the wreath coin seems more sharply struck, especially on the obverse where details in the base and folds of liberty's gown show more clearly than on the white coin.
The seated design that is so impressive on dollars and halves just doesn't show well on smaller coins, where it appears o be crammed between the rims. Portrait designs are much better suited to small formats.
CG
I have no expertise in these coins. On pure eye appeal I would go with the toned coin. To me it is far more interesting to look at. And I will not even hazard a guess as to grade.
Carl
Door #2.. Something about it looks? I don't know.
ms65/66 .
bottom.V -3 strong strike. ms65.
very nice coins.
rob.
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
The toned coine is far more detailed and looks proof. I can almost see her nipples. The edges look sharper. Beautiful! Don't know grade. I never would have caught the mint mark.
Both are MS63's. I prefer the toned example.
Ray
Tony
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
The top coin is impressive. If natural tone (which it appears to be) I would opt for the in wreath coin. Of course, that would be if I collected Mint State, which I don't.
I'll guess MS 65 for the top and a body bag for the lower....or at least AU Net grade vf-30.
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
Thomas Paine
I assume the scratches on the top scan are on the holder and I prefer it. I like my proofs white but a pretty colored business strike looks better.
I'm going to guess they are both MS66.
In the ANA standard it says:
MS-65: No trace of wear; nearly as perfect as MS-67 except for some small blemish. Has full mint luster but may be unevenly toned or lightly fingermarked.
So I guess PCGS is trying to help out with their fingerprints.
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The bottom HD also is a well-struck specimen, with the obverse struck just slightly weaker (differences in lines on liberty's robe) and the reverse slightly stronger (wreath details) than the toned HD. I do not see any evidence of cleaning/dipping although I am still learning what to really look for. Luster is all there. Rims look great. There is some prooflike qualities to this piece. Slight marks are evident on liberty's robe (especially her right leg) and hairlines could be present in the obverse field (or is that the holder?). Reverse field also shows slight marks above "HALF" but not enough to be a deterrent to eye appeal. I see no circulated wear on this piece so my guess is MS something. With the slight but noticable markings and hairlines(?), I would say MS65PL.
I could be totally off but what the hay; these threads are fun. Thanks for posting this Mark!
I grade the toned coin 66/67 if fully struck, a 67.
The untoned coin gets knocked down by the obverse to a 66 although the reverse is spectacular plus the coin has a light cameo look as well..
I can't grade the first one because of toning, but looks like a sweet gem.
The second one looks MS64 at best to me....too many chatter to make MS65 but it may be just because of scan.
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
Sorry to be late to this thread.
These two 1872-S coins are of different obv and reverse dies. The toned coin is one of the aw varieties while the second is a bw variety. The second does not appear to be the blundered date that has been reported for a few bw coins. The pendent location over the date also helps define the obverse dies. Both coins have open D. The S in the bw looks to be repunched although I would like to see the coin.
Obviously the two coins differ in tone with the first having great bluish gold even toning and the second untoned. Thes strike is much better on the toned coin with strong head, toe,shield and dentiles. The second coin strike is not bad but seems to be less strong in the liberty gown and the inferior obverse dentile appear to be weaker. These should be both business strikes as to my knowledge there were no proofs struck at the SF mint that year. The metal color on the untoned coin looks somewhat funny in the photo and I even looked into the patterns and noted that there were aluminum patterns in HD of 1872 coins but while from regular dies for the year, they were not with S mint marks. Since this is a challenge I looked to see if the prior suggestion that the untoned coin was a counterfeit; I then imagined that the shape of the left arm was thicker, but I am not aware of counterfeit 1872 HD and while this was a year when silver was in disequilibrium, and making coins of low silver content would be profitable, it should be well known and not. So down to business.
The luster is fantastic on the toned coin the untoned coin looks dipped and has lost luster more on the obverse than the reverse. The fields look clean on the toned coin while there are patches of hairlines around the cap and to left of the date on the untoned coin.It it is possible that the area around the cap is a fingerprint. Ther is also some noise in the right and left obv mid fields. The untoned reverse has a few tics above the half. The first coin I would grade 66 or better ; I would guess 67. The second coin I don't like very much and if not cleaned I would have said the obv is MS63-4; reverse is better by a point. If in hand I might find it not only dipped but cleaned.
So, I will be interested in the "truth" and will learn by your responses. Since you are more into surfaces than varieties I will be surprised if you are trying to point out a new variety above and beyond the mint mark placement to us.
Cheers!
matteproof
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Both coins have been graded MS66 by PCGS. I have examined the first/toned one in person and it is a beauty. The second one is apparently prooflike, so perhaps its flaws have been magnified to some extent.
I posted them for a couple of reasons:
1) I thought it would serve as a good illustration of a toned vs. untoned coin of the same type, date and grade.
2) We also happened to have both the mintmark above wreath and mintmark below wreath varieties in inventory at the same time.
The PCGS Population Report shows the mintmark above wreath (population of 83) to be roughly six times scarcer than the below wreath variety (population of 537) but I am very skeptical of those numbers. NGC's Census Report, in its limited numbers for the date, shows populations of 25 above wreath and 19 below wreath.
In a general reply to some of the posts to this thread -
Neither coin could be a proof, as older coins (with mintmarks) struck at mints other than Philadelphia were not struck in proof (with very few exceptions).
As noted by some posters, there are a number of differences in the die characteristics, the finish to the surfaces and the strike for these two pieces, in addition to the location of the mintmarks.
The top coin does not have any scratches on it and the bottom one has not been "cleaned," though it has most likely been dipped.
Why are there two different mintmark varieties for this year? According to numismatic scholar Walter Breen, some time late in 1872, the Engraving Department, without explanation, began placing the mintmarks below, rather than above the wreath on the reverse. That's all I know about that!
Finally, in this thread and in many others, some posters have noted a small mark, cut or abrasion here or there on a given coin, as a reason to grade it quite low. One of the things I quickly learned as a grader at NGC was that it is unfair and incorrect to focus solely on a coin's flaw(s) ,while ignoring its attributes.
If a coin is perfect (or nearly so) in just about every respect, but has one bag mark or other type of flaw, it shouldn't be downgraded 5 or more points on the grading scale for that one imperfection. One of the subtleties and difficulties in grading, is learning to determine exactly how much a coin should be penalized in grade for a given flaw. Oh, but that is the subject for another thread at another time - perhaps next week?
<< <i>One of the subtleties and difficulties in grading, is learning to determine exactly how much a coin should be penalized in grade for a given flaw. Oh, but that is the subject for another thread at another time - perhaps next week? >>
That would be a great thread and one which I seriously hope you consider starting.
What you said about not focusing too much on a single flaw as a grader is very interesting. I will look forward to next week or whenever you talk more indepth about this.
Carl
Tom
I don't know how I did it, exactly, but I guessed the grade closely on both coins, was dead on with one, and only a point low on the other. This, along with other threads for coin series I don't know well that I seem to have answered very close to dead on what the grade was gave me a revelation...
Grading, although subjective in most aspects, is something that anyone can do with a little knowledge and a lot of thought. All personal things aside, I am NOT a coin expert and do not accept the term well when applied to my name. I am not especially gifted, nor do I claim to know everything - but all of the examples of my posting what I believe to be accurate grades are done without a book in front of me, and with little experience studying the designs put forth. This made me realize over time that grading coins accurately is more an art of observation. Look at the whole picture and don't focus on one thing. Learn to overlook the details and take what you see at face value. I'm blabbering and this isn't coming out perfectly, but the idea is there for those who can magically read between my blurry lines.
All of you can do it. That's the point.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
I dunno about that I overheard a prominent homerun hitter, major stockholder in a grading company, who shall go nameless tell a dealer that less than 50 dealers know how to grade coins and less than 100 people overall can grade. If we believe him, not so sure many of us myself included know as much about grading as we think we do. Either that or the quoter is mistaken.
<< <i>stman,
Nope, look at the Mintmark. 1872-S Half Dimes have two distinct placements for mintmarks, one above the wreath, one below.
Mark, >>
First for me too! Lower ex. rev. rim looks wide all around. Is that indicative of an EDS strike?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Your comments also emphasize the value of revueing the coins in hand. I relooked at the scans and my impression of the untoned coin still would be for a lesser grade. I am surprised based on the pic that the area about the cap and to left of the date was without significant faults.
Thanks for the post and results.
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