Beware verbal opinions from grading services
Barry
Posts: 10,100 ✭✭✭
Here's a recent experience that took me by surprise:
At the Baltimore show in November, I bought an 1871-CC Seated Dime (one of the keys, for you modern guys) from a well-respected dealer, with whom I've done business before. The coin had some surface corrosion, as is common for that date range and mint mark. I showed the coin to Mike Faraone (sp?) at the ANACS table, who has always been very helpful with verbal opinions. He looked at the coin, commented that is is authentic and made some comments about the corrosion netting it down. I thanked him, then went back to the dealer and purchased the coin.
I got the coin back from ANACS last week in a body bag labelled Cast Counterfeit! First call is to the dealer. He was very surprised. No problem, send it back for a refund. Today, I called ANACS and spoke with one of the graders about it. He told me the weight and specific gravity were wrong, and equipment to check these are not available at the shows.
While I understand minor differences (a point?) in grading from a verbal opinion to the actual slab, not having the means to call a counterfeit?
At the Baltimore show in November, I bought an 1871-CC Seated Dime (one of the keys, for you modern guys) from a well-respected dealer, with whom I've done business before. The coin had some surface corrosion, as is common for that date range and mint mark. I showed the coin to Mike Faraone (sp?) at the ANACS table, who has always been very helpful with verbal opinions. He looked at the coin, commented that is is authentic and made some comments about the corrosion netting it down. I thanked him, then went back to the dealer and purchased the coin.
I got the coin back from ANACS last week in a body bag labelled Cast Counterfeit! First call is to the dealer. He was very surprised. No problem, send it back for a refund. Today, I called ANACS and spoke with one of the graders about it. He told me the weight and specific gravity were wrong, and equipment to check these are not available at the shows.
While I understand minor differences (a point?) in grading from a verbal opinion to the actual slab, not having the means to call a counterfeit?
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Comments
I'm grateful your Dealer is an honest one who will refund you your cash and pull this one from the collecting pipeline.
peacockcoins
It is important to know who your buying from(and their honesty)as well as or more than you know your coins.
You had a coin there with 'corrosion". Always suspect a coin with unnatural surfaces of being bad and do some checks.
The first thing I'd do is inspect and count the reeds.
The metal is poured in from the edge on cast counterfeits, and will have a filed area where the counterfeiter smoothed out the gated area.
Sometimes though, the counterfeiter will use a knurling tool to restore the reeds so you can't see where the cast coin was gated. That's where knowing the characteristics of the coin comes in and you can count the reeds to ascertain they're proper.
If you know the proper diameter of the coins, you can also check that. It's real difficult to maintain proper size on a casting. Normally it will be a few thousandths small on diameter.
I sent a 1873 CC /arrows quarter to ANACS. I'd performed all the tests I could and when I was done I still wasn't sure whether the coin was good or not.
I got the coin back bodybagged from ANACS. They said they couldn't tell for sure either.
The coin got returned to the seller.
Ray
Came back 65.
I'm not a Barber guy, but my boss was attempting to buy maybe a 92-S quarter. Or maybe another year. In XF it listed $1250...He had me carry it to ANACS to see if it was cast. Mr. Faraone and Mr. Campbell looked at it...They said "It looks real, but I'm suspicious"...So I take it to David Hall who admitted to not being an expert at detection...He said "It's probably good, but I don't know". We ended up not buying the coin due to suspicions, but certain tests do have to be run sometimes and I for one am thankful at the moment...
<< <i>This is where knowing your series really helps youavoid counterfeits.
You had a coin there with 'corrosion". Always suspect a coin with unnatural surfaces of being bad and do some checks.
The first thing I'd do is inspect and count the reeds.
Ray >>
Reeding was correct (wide) and surface problems are also common for this date. Guess that's what made it fool everyone the first time around.
The most important aspect is that you dealt with a reputable dealer that was willing to take the coin back! You covered your bases and the harm done was minimal.
Tyler
DQ2: If a rare or key date aint ina slab [slab meaning NGC or PCGS] then somethin' gots to be wrong with it! How many times have we seen this mentioned on this forum>?
<< <i>Dumb question: When there is so much riding on authenticity why buy raw? >>
I've been working on my Seated Dime set for about 4 years. I need 2 coins to complete it (1863 and 1871-CC). These dates just don't come along very often. This was the second or third 71-CC I've seen in that time, in auction by the big boys, want lists on file with some dealers, and at the shows I've attended. The 71-CC's I've passed on were either not in the grade range I wanted, or not priced reasonably (IMO). When old collections become available, they often don't get slabbed. It's up to the seller and dealer. This particular dealer sells both raw and slabbed coins. I've dealt with him before and he has an excellent reputation. So there really isn't a risk to buying raw, as long as I'm comfortable with my own grading skills in the series, and there's a no questions asked return policy. Personally, I prefer most of my coins valued over $500 to be slabbed. So, if I buy raw (which I wouldn't do from just anyone) then I'll submit in. This has been my first major surprise. Hope that's not a dumb answer :.)
First as Sam Goldwin once said, “A verbal contract is worth the paper it’s written on.” The verbal opinions that one gets at coin shows from the services are quick and off the cuff. It can be very different with the coins are subjected to close personal examination.
Second, some counterfeits can be darned hard to spot, especially when the surfaces of the coin have been damaged by problems like corrosion. In nine years of business I’ve had one counterfeit problem. A customer sent a 1798 dime to ANACS that I sold him, which came back bad. I missed it. The leading dealer from whom I purchased it had missed it. And the auction house, which is one of the most respected firms in this business, missed it.
After the problem was discovered, the dealer from whom I purchased the piece returned it to the auction house, and they made good on it.
The lessons here are to buy from dealers who back their goods, and buy coins that have been certified by PCGS, NGC and ANACS. Those firms make good on counterfeits. I’ve heard bad things about the others, and not just about ACG.
I understand your point. ANACS has offered the free verbal opinions for a long time, and I've always appreciated that service. One of the reasons I've sent coins to them, rather than PCGS or NGC, is because they've offered that service. They are friendly, approachable, and have no air of aloofness about them.
However, after my recent experience, I wonder if they are actually doing collectors a disservice by providing a quick opinion, which may or may not be accurate - not only from the grading perspecitive, but more importantly, from the authenticity perspective.
K S