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Crossover from SEGS to PCGS

Folks,

Any opinions out there on crossing over a SEGS coin to PCGS ?

Has anyone actually sent a SEGS coin into PCGS for consideration of crossing it over at the same grade ?

I just purchased a 1913 s SEGS MS 63 and I would like to send it to PCGS. I've solicited lots of opinions of my local dealers. The consensus was to break out the coin from the SEGS holder and submit it to PCGS raw in hope of getting the same grade

Any thoughts out there ?

Thanks.
Gaudens
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Comments

  • merz2merz2 Posts: 2,474
    Gaudens
    I tend to agree with your local dealers.The total crossover rate 20% and price$30 compared to $15 makes it the way to go.
    Don
    Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
  • Conventional wisdom dictates that cracking can certainly increase your chances. However, if you don't have an excellent grasp on grading, you will expose yourself to a lot of downside risk. You could easily get a coin coming home in a PCGS AU-58 holder or even a body bag for altered surfaces if you're not careful.
  • I crossed a 1914 Lincoln MS-65 from Segs to NGC. I know it's not PCGS but I believe that SEGS does a good job in grading.

    Ogden
  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,387 ✭✭✭
    I've got one SEGS coin in for cross at any grade. Eventually, it'll get looked at by PCGS. I wanted it in a better holder and I think it could be DMPL and not PL from what I could tell.
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 22,816 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've also done the "cross-at-any-grade" with SEGS to PCGS. The main reason: let PCGS crack those next to impossible SEGS slabs! That was one invoice I feel was well worth the money.

    peacockcoins

  • MadMonkMadMonk Posts: 3,743
    It is risky. When they first opened thier doors, they seemed to be pretty tough. So some of those might still be floating around. And I guess that would be easy to tell. If your doubtful (which I don't think you are) Bring it to your next local coin show and get some opinions. Otherwise go for it.
    Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,692 ✭✭✭
    you can definitely cherry-pick a lot of good stuff in segs holders. crackout hint: segs plastic is very resilient. i've found the best way is to stand the slab on edge, smack it sharply a couple times with a hammer, dead-on, if your lucky, that sucker will just split open like a clam shell.

    K S
  • Hey everyone, I’m new to the forum, not as new to the hobby but I’ve desperately wanted to talk as well as ask questions to the coin world about advice, opinions and flat out truths. I know it’s been an awful long time since a lot of these forum posts were talked about but they are all still relevant today. So if there’s anyone out there that’s willing to talk and drop some knowledge and advice I will listen.
    Ok, so I believe in my humble option to have a couple absolutely stunning, possible potentially top pop/ one of the nicest Morgans I have ever seen in a SEGS slab. Now I’ve read through most of the forums on segs, in my opinion 95% of what I’ve ever acquired for coins graded by segs have been right on the money grade wise. With the exception of 1 maybe 2 where I actually believe the Segs grade is potentially LOW. So, the coin that I believe is graded low is actually why I’m asking for help and opinions on this forum. I would really like everyone’s professional opinion’s on what you think , as well as some guidance on crossover. Should I try to crossover to NGC or PCGS? I remember someone talking about an any grade crossover. Well that’s exactly what I don’t want, I truly believe the segs grade is slightly lower than it should be or at the very least the same grade should be crossed over. I’ve spoken with multiple professionals and its a general consensus they all believe there is absolutely no reason whatsoever they shouldn’t honor the already slabbed grade by segs. Obviously I’m not a professional grader, I just like the rest of you have immersed myself and researched and have done everything I can possibly do to come up with the best educated grade I believe it to be. So if you incredible people wouldn’t mind letting me know your opinions on which company I should crossover to, advice on that process please and how I actually go about doing that. Should I wait for a coin show and try there? What do ya’ll think? Oh this coin I have that I want to have transferred is probably the nicest 1892-CC I’ve ever seen. Segs graded it a PL MS-66+, and honestly I think its 67 or better. I’ll try and take some clean pictures so I can do this coin justice. I just want which ever grading company I send this to, to take this coin seriously because it could possibly be the finest 92-cc to come through their doors.

  • DisneyFanDisneyFan Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you want the most critical evaluation - CACG

  • m4832m4832 Posts: 89 ✭✭✭

    I broke a coin out of a SEGS and sent it to PCGS. They graded it 5 numbers higher.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 14,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2024 6:19AM

    @Smitonia said:
    I’ve spoken with multiple professionals and its a general consensus they all believe there is absolutely no reason whatsoever they shouldn’t honor the already slabbed grade by segs.

    This line stood out to me.

    Perhaps you used the wrong word for what you were trying to convey, and it isn't clear if these other people actually saw the coin. But no grading company will "honor" an SEGS grade. The coin will stand on its own.

  • seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 398 ✭✭✭✭

    Wow. Would love to know what it was.

  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,573 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2024 6:42AM

    if you truly feel the grade merits the cross, I would crack out, takes any possible bias of holder out of the equation period.
    Ive had it happen several times with customers trying to cross, only then to crack and it gets done.
    Also, keep in mind some off brand holders my hide an issue that is not seen, such as I once had a pci seated half undergraded by a mile till I cracked it out to send, was rim filed.
    Dealer freind of mine had a 1839-c $2 1/2 same similar thing, hiddern rim issue

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,635 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Considering the PCGS population for PL examples of that date, I think the chances of the coin being as nice as you believe are very close to 0%.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 8,979 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @m4832 said:
    I broke a coin out of a SEGS and sent it to PCGS. They graded it 5 numbers higher.

    Photos?
    Jim


    When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,050 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2024 7:53AM

    SEGS is not a unitary grading service. They have undergone several changes so precisely WHEN the coin was graded is important. SEGS Inc. closed up one Friday and SEGS LLC opened on Monday, no longer honoring the grades of "the previous company". In recent years one of the leaders has disassociated himself from SEGS.

    Yes this. To me this undermines their credibility, and I would evaluate each coin on its own merits.

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,178 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No kidding! I cracked out a Panamanian coin once that did certify at PCGS (FOUR grades lower than theirs). Still it was a rare coin so glad to have it.
    Maybe the posters above are not sure how to post pictures as they most certainly need to.

    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • m4832m4832 Posts: 89 ✭✭✭

    @jesbroken said:

    @m4832 said:
    I broke a coin out of a SEGS and sent it to PCGS. They graded it 5 numbers higher.

    Photos?
    Jim


    SEGS graded it a 25.

  • jomjom Posts: 3,381 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Five numbers higher" implied it was five grades higher. Actually, the Merc dime you show is only ONE grade higher. Whatever the case, I'm glad it worked out for you.

    jom

  • m4832m4832 Posts: 89 ✭✭✭

    @jom said:
    "Five numbers higher" implied it was five grades higher. Actually, the Merc dime you show is only ONE grade higher. Whatever the case, I'm glad it worked out for you.

    jom

    Ok.

  • m4832m4832 Posts: 89 ✭✭✭

    I purposely wrote 5 numbers instead of 5 grades to not confuse anyone. Oh well.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 11,635 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @m4832 said:
    I purposely wrote 5 numbers instead of 5 grades to not confuse anyone. Oh well.

    One grade/five points (or to leave no room for doubt, 30 vs. 25).

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,451 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wayyyyy back in the day, maybe around 2013-2014, I crossed a SEGS unattributed 64FB Merc to PCGS 65FB. It became a top pop variety. Each and every coin is different.

    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • slider23slider23 Posts: 631 ✭✭✭✭

    As noted above the SEGS holder is equal to a raw coin. There is no down side on cracking out unless you damage the coin on removal. If I was submitting to PCGS, I would not want the stigma of the SEGS holder on a crossover.

  • OnWithTheHuntOnWithTheHunt Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I had one SEGS coin upgrade by 10 points, one stay the same, and one drop by 10 or 15. All were cracked out before I sent them to PCGS. I've found SEGS holders easy to crack. Place on edge on hard surface, Tap hard, Rotate, Repeat on all sides. Breaks open cleanly at the seams.

    Proud recipient of the coveted "You Suck Award" (9/3/10).
  • @MFeld said:
    Welcome to the forum.

    In order to have a good chance at receiving meaningful feedback and suggestions you will need to post accurate images of the coin.

    These are images I’ve taken, any of the scratches are from the outside of the case. As you know in my message, after going over this coin as much as I have I feel like it’s the best coin I’ve personally seen, and that’s why I created this post because I’m genuinely looking for professional advice because this is my livelihood, it’s means alot to me.
    I have another 40 photos of very up close detailed photos of every inch of this coin but it won’t let me upload them for some reason. So I’ll work on posting those as well thank you all







  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,592 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Howdy and welcome.

    As has been mentioned to you previously, it is best to start a new thread and not bring a zombie thread back to the top more than two decades after it has died. Also, paragraphs help folks relax their eyes and retain focus on the topic, which means in the future a giant wall of text should be something you avoid. Lastly, no knowledgeable dealer could possibly infer that one grading service should "honor" the grade of another service. If that was truly the advice given then you need to find someone who knows what they are doing and avoid the first person who told you that line.

    Regardless, we find ourselves here.

    Your images aren't terrible, but they aren't great, either. From what I can see and how I interpret them your coin is artificially toned (AT) and worth only a tiny fraction of what you hope. I'm sorry and good luck.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • @BStrauss3 said:

    @Smitonia

    1. Welcome

    2. It's generally considered bad form on this board to grab an ancient (20-year old) post and hijack it - start your own thread with a clear title for better results (more eyes).

    3. Use paragraphs - walls of text tend not to be read.

    4. Whomever you spoke to is - politely - poorly informed. Seek out better, more knowledgeable people.

    5. SEGS is not a unitary grading service. They have undergone several changes so precisely WHEN the coin was graded is important. SEGS Inc. closed up one Friday and SEGS LLC opened on Monday, no longer honoring the grades of "the previous company". In recent years one of the leaders has disassociated himself from SEGS.

    I appreciate this because I have never posted on any message boards really, and didn’t actually know how to do that, so wasn’t educated on the proper etiquette of board posting.
    Thank you for that, as for my slabs, I’ve found out they are older slabs because of their serial number so to my knowledge they are early slabs from the man that originally started the segs company. Seems to suggest they are graded correctly / closely to actual grade.
    I just wonder if I should send to PCGS, NGC or ANACS. Thanks for the advice and knowledge whoever replied to me. Means a lot

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,592 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I suggest you send the coin(s) to PCGS at either "cross at any grade" or "cross at grade" and see what happens. If they appear like the images you have shared then you will be bitterly disappointed. However, sometimes it is best to have unpleasant reality hit you quickly than to avoid it.

    Of course, I could be wrong, but my experience is telling me I'm not. Regardless, good luck!

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,592 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Still artificially toned (AT).

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image





  • And this is another one. Also is their a better company for naturally toned coins? Because that’s something that these coins deserve is to be celebrated for the amazing natural toning on both.

  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,592 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Send them to PCGS, CACG or NGC if you want them in a respected holder, but be ready for bitter disappointment.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 1, 2024 3:45AM

    I suggest you leave the coin right where it is. From what I can see you will not gain any advantage by sending it to PCGS or NGC. An MS67 Morgan is no small feat. It is close to perfect. You could possibly get back an MS64 or even 63. I don't know what you paid for the coin and I don't really care. However, using MS64 as an example you would see a dramatic price decrease. If you have talked ro dealers and others why not go with their advice. Your not going to find it to be easy to convince anyone here that your coin is better or worse than MS67. It needs to be seen in hand to really give you an honest opinion. You've said you have already done that.
    So now you make your choice and good luck with that.
    If you want a solid opinion from a Morgan collector. I say leave it alone. You'll thank me later.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars

  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Smitonia said:





    And this is another one. Also is their a better company for naturally toned coins? Because that’s something that these coins deserve is to be celebrated for the amazing natural toning on both.

    You may end up celebrating alone.

    LCoopie = Les
  • Morgan13Morgan13 Posts: 682 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Smitonia said:





    And this is another one. Also is their a better company for naturally toned coins? Because that’s something that these coins deserve is to be celebrated for the amazing natural toning on both.

    Yes there actually is, the company name is SEGS.

    Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars

  • @TomB said:
    Howdy and welcome.

    As has been mentioned to you previously, it is best to start a new thread and not bring a zombie thread back to the top more than two decades after it has died. Also, paragraphs help folks relax their eyes and retain focus on the topic, which means in the future a giant wall of text should be something you avoid. Lastly, no knowledgeable dealer could possibly infer that one grading service should "honor" the grade of another service. If that was truly the advice given then you need to find someone who knows what they are doing and avoid the first person who told you that line.

    Regardless, we find ourselves here.

    Your images aren't terrible, but they aren't great, either. From what I can see and how I interpret them your coin is artificially toned (AT) and worth only a tiny fraction of what you hope. I'm sorry and good luck.

    That’s why I came on here for advice, I knew there was plenty of knowledge on this forum. Thank you

  • And I appreciate the opinions about artificial toning, I strongly disagree, just based on some already graded PCGS/NGC toned coins I’ve scoured, and Ive found quite a few actually that are almost identical crescent moon toning with a smooth blend that were all graded as natural tone. So it’s nice to be able to have an opinion but if you saw them in person I tend to think you would agree. Anyhow, thank you all I have the utmost respect of your knowledge and opinions. I will take your advice and hope for the best, but expect the worst! Thanks

  • Sorry for anything I did that was taboo, not normal. I’m still learning, I’ll do better in the future.

  • So these are all pictures of pccs graded coins with natural toning that look identical to the toning on the two toned coins I own. The toning is called bag mark toning, when the coins use to sit in bank bags, they use to have problems with rats eating through their bags, to combat that they would put sulfate all over the bags and as one coin sat on top of another for years, and because of heat and humidity and all the variables to create the thin layer of colors they would get these crescent moon toned coins.






  • DeplorableDanDeplorableDan Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Have you ever heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect? ehhh.....nevermind.

    Go ahead and send them in, be sure to give us an update once your grades pop.

  • Davidk7Davidk7 Posts: 191 ✭✭✭

    The difference is that those coins have natural toning and yours are a lot closer to Artificial Toning.

    Collector of Capped Bust Halves, SLQ's, Commems, and random cool stuff! @davidv_numismatics on Instagram

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