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NCS: I don't get it.

Instead of submitting a coin to NCS, wouldn't it be better to just scratch "this is a bad coin' into the obverse field using the pointy part of a nail clipper?

I'm just a little unclear on the concept.

The only benefits I can see (though I'm sure someone out there is going to set me straight) is that they'll put your coin into a piece of plastic similar in size and shape to those used by PCGS and NGC, and they guarantee authenticity

The downside is that the coin will have whatever is wrong with it printed neatly in capital letters on its holder positioned perfectly to smash any potential buyer directly in the face. Lets even forget the buyer scenario - say your home proudly showing your coin collection to the Kammerers next door when Mrs. Kammerer, who knows nothing about coins, asks you what 'environmental damage' means. Obviously, we can all do without such numismatic embarrasment.

I would say that it would be better to have a raw coin than one neatly encased in a slab which has 'this coin is no good' printed above it. On the other hand, I'm a contrarian.

Are you with me people?










Singapore

Comments

  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    Singapore, authentication is one reason which quickly comes to mind. Another is a secure holder to protect that damaged coin. image

    Edited to add : from your post, you seem to be talking only about coins which would no-grade at major grading services. NCS does much more than that for coins which can and do grade at NGC and PCGS.
  • i like the fact that NCS conserves coins but if you just want it in a slab to see that it's real i would send it to ANACS (just not through the econ. service)image
  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭
    I think it is far better to know the history of a coin and its potential problems up front rather than obscuring it through being raw. I'd wager that very few people are experts across all coin series, problems, and tricks used by coin doctors. And if you have a coin certified as genuine with a listing of problems/alterations done you can make a more objective and informed decision on the coin. Being raw increases the potential that the buyer will be hosed by a seller who is obscuring the alterations they either know about, committed, or are not aware of. I would also argue that it increases salability. A wise seller would have a happer sale with someone who knew the history of the coin rather than have the person come back and accuse them of falsely representing the coin's history.

    Neil
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I had several trade dollars slabbed by NCS because they were double die varieties. They were improperly cleaned and wouldn't be slabbed by PCGS or NGC. Having them properly attributed meant a lot to me - lots more than being "numismatically embarrassed" by "improperly cleaned" being on the label. They are still quite desirable coins!
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    I purchased 2 IHC's slabbed by NCS, one for improper cleaning and one for recoloring. I took the first one to a coin show and not one dealer picked oup the improper cleaning. In fact the comment was made, why don't you snap, crackle and pop it. The two coins are very eye appealing and the market knows them for what they are. You would pay two or three times what I paid for them if you purchased them off Ebay and not know they had a problem unless you had them slabbed. Right there is a savings of $60 and I don't mind owning some three legged dogs.

    The other sevice they provide is conservation. I see nothing wrong with the attempt to conserve a coin so it's around when my grandchildren's grandchildren are collecting. Should we let the walls and the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel fade away into obscruity too?
  • This sounds like someone's attempt to establish a formalized numismatic honor system whereby any doctored coin will say 'Attention would be buyer: doctored coin in here'.

    I can understand why Mike likes it - he got a good deal. Or Trade Dollar Nut - he got some varieties slabbed that couldn't be otherwise.

    But I still find it hard to believe that a business can exist where someone pays a company some amount of money and in return receives a coin in a holder which is now very likely worth less than it would be without the holder.

    Its like getting a bad haircut, sort of.







    Singapore
  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭


    << <i>But I still find it hard to believe that a business can exist where someone pays a company some amount of money and in return receives a coin in a holder which is now very likely worth less than it would be without the holder. >>

    Nope, it would be worth more in the holder. In the holder, the problems are known. Outside the holder the problems can be unknown. As a buyer, I would much rather pay for a NCS holder where I knew what I was getting than get shafted by a seller who thought they could get more by not documenting the problems.

    And, technically, the coin should be worth the same before and after holdering because the coin did not change. Only documented. So a whizzed (for example) morgan is worth the same regardless. But I bet it's more sellable in a NCS holder than raw. And if a seller would sell it without admitting to it being whizzed (where they knew it or suspected it) then that seller is unethical and should not be in the business.

    The coin is not worth more unholdered except to those who are not aware of its problems.

    Neil
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How about a lightly cleaned 1893-S dollar, a 1909-S VDB cent or a 1916-D dime. Counterfeits abound. Nice to know it's slabbed and guaranteed authentic!
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    hello singapore, this is Mr. Kammerer. what exactly is your point??image

    being a contrarian is one thing, but posting like an anaconda clone when he was in a bad mood is another. are you soliciting information with your inane posting or just coming around when you're bored?

    A Kammerer suggestion:
    open the "PM" and "view profile" functions on your toolbar and try entering into discussion on some areas of numismatics that you enjoy instead of harping about what annoys you. that's always more constructive and eddifying. your practices to date----all 22 of them----are really quite "trollish" in nature.

    al h.image
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,969 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I once owned a very rare variety of ground salvaged 1805 half cent. The coin net graded to Fair-2. It had Good sharpness with porous surfaces. The diagnostics were all sharp and easy to see. No legit grading service, other than ANACS would have graded this coin, yet I sold it to a copper dealer for over $1,000. Why not give ANACS some competition?

    The finest known example of 1798 NC-1 (Not collectable) has EF sharpness, but there is a scratch in the right field that is about the size of the Grand Canyon relative to the size of the coin. This coin is sharper than the nearest challenger by at least 25 points, but there’s this big scratch. Why can’t a coin like that be certified in a holder?

    A few months ago a dealer had a 1795 half eagle in a qualified SEGS holder. The coin had AU sharpness, but it was polished. Why can’t one get such a coin certified as genuine?

    I hope this answers the question as to why there is an NCS.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BikingnutBikingnut Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭
    Glad you brought this up, because I've been wanting to send my 1910 Liberty nickel to them to try and possibly remove the "artificial color" that PCGS body bagged it for. They are tied to NGC if you all didn't know it, and they will send your coin directly to NGC to be graded if you want them to, once they do the conservation, and if it is gradable also. They will only accept coins from authorized dealers, active members of the ANA or other collectors society. I just received from their kit with all the required paper work to join the ANA as an associate member. By the way does anyone know what the price is for becoming an associate member? Their application doesn't say how much it is.
    Their fees are reasonable from what I've read. Evaluation is 1 percent of the declared value, and conservation is another 2 percent of the declared value. If you go to their websight they have a whole gallery of before and after photos. They seem to do a good job of removing toning from Liberty nickels, I'm still debating whether or not to submit mine.
    They also make it very clear that they will not doctor coins, such as fill holes, redo worn letters etc.
    I'm not trying to sell them, just thought I would throw in my 2 cents since I received their kit today.

    Dennis
    US Navy CWO3 retired. 12/81-09/04

    Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,969 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Associate membership in the ANA is for spouses of full members. You can't be a lone associate member of the ANA without an connection to a full member.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BikingnutBikingnut Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭
    Odd, wonder why they sent me an associate membership application.
    US Navy CWO3 retired. 12/81-09/04

    Looking for PCGS AU58 Washington's, 32-63.
  • Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    Back in the goodle days I used to send damaged keys & semi keys to ANACS.
    My local dealer, he was a mom & pop type, wouldn't even lowball me. He would just flat out tell me he didn't want my junk. So off to ANACS & Teletrade it would go.
    I did it strictly for the $$. That's the only reason I would ever send something to NCS. They kinda make junk "respectable."
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
  • GilbertGilbert Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭
    I take it you feel "net grading" by ANACS would also fall into this category?
    Gilbert
  • The cost to join the ANA as a member depends on the length of time you desire for membership - one year for example, costs $39.00. It is easy to join via their ANA website. Once you get your membership number you then send in a form to NCS, requesting you ID number so that you can submit to them.

    While I am on NCS, there has been numerous posts in that they have been able to take an ungradeable coin and made them gradeable - I believe that this was in the area of environmentally damaged. They say that depending on the type of cleaning they might also be able to help out there.. Harsh cleaning, no way.

    hope this helps...
  • What I find interesting about NCS is how it has caused a complete turnaraound in so many collectors attitudes. Back when the SS Central America gold was "curated" and then slabbed by PCGS the vast majority was vocally against it. It was widely felt that the only reason it was done was because of the vast amount of money involved with the recovered gold and the fact that many of the principals were tied to PCGS. "Cleaned is cleaned!, and calling it curated is just trying to weasel your way around it!" Attitudes were such that you would think someone had a flatulence attack in a crowded elevator.

    Now that we have NCS and the average Joe Shmo can have HIS ungradable coins "curated" and possibly slabbed by one of the major services everything is just wonderful and curating is a GOOD thing!

    Our friends in the elevator are now commenting on how nice the aroma is.
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    Condor, you said : "Now that we have NCS and the average Joe Shmo can have HIS ungradable coins "curated" and possibly slabbed by one of the major services everything is just wonderful and curating is a GOOD thing!"

    I think the change in people's attitudes about "curating" is due to the fact that they feel everyone is now being treated equally - the guys with millions of dollars worth of gold aren't the only ones who can get their coins curated now. It makes sense to me. Sure, there might be a bit of hypocrisy there too, but hopefully not too much. image
  • Cam40Cam40 Posts: 8,146
    I found the curating of those gold coins totally fascinating.How could these barnicle-encrusted coins be restored to virtually mint-state condition.Unreal.
    Didnt only a few sell due to over-inflated pricing?
    There was alot of hype about these coins at the time.
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    Condor, your post had me laffing, I once walked into an empty elevator and it was obvious that someone had left an unseen but very noticeable gift behind. I couldn't wait to get to my floor and feared as we passed each floor that the elevator would stop and someone would step in and think that I was the benefactor of that gift. All I can say is that someone really had a major flatulence problem. Anyway back to the topic. Personally when they announced the curation of the recovered sunken gold coins my thought was well that is good for history and quite a story. I viewed the recovery on the Discovery Channel and found it quite fascinating. In fact I would like to own one of the coins someday. I think it was a credit to the process that they were able to stabilize these coins and we are able to view them like they appeared so many years ago.

    Would I prefer to own IHC's that weren't cleaned, of course, do I like the collection of the cleaned coins I own, some of them yes and a couple no. I call them my three-legged dogs. I still get a kick out of louping them, digitalizing them and looking at the details. They do exist, they are part of our hobby like it or not, at least in the long run the conservation of such coins may keep them around for a much longer time. Just some random thoughts on a Saturday morning.

  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    Cam40,

    Actually I believe that the hoard has been completely dispersed, or if not, nearly so. In saying this, I am not making any representations regarding whether the initial selling prices were attractive or not, merely that the coins were absorbed into the market place.

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