Nightmare on ICG Street

gwr4

Sent Dec 2 2002, 5 Day express, several coins to ICG.
No coins as of today.

I am convincing myself they overgrade State Quarters.
I have read it here alot, gotta see myself.

Busted a DCAM PCGS 69 Silver State Quarter.

Looking for that "easy" 70 from ICG, anyone taking bets?

KlectorKid

Why!!! U want to have overgraded coins?

KlectorKid

ICG overgrades everything thats why u cant give away ICG coins.

TAP444

look for a 71dcam b/c icg is usually about 2 points off on avg
Tim

wingedliberty

ICG has saturated the market with MS/PR70 moderns. They are not considered a real grading
service anymore.


Brian.

mbbiker

<< <i>ICG overgrades everything thats why u cant give away ICG coins >>




you can give them to me

KlectorKid

I would pay much more for a PCGS 69 then an ICG 70.

gmarguli

I frequently see ICG PR70s sell for less than the cost of slabbing. What's that tell you about their grading abilities?

MacCoin

I like ICG. I do think they are a real grading service and a good one. i like the little finger holds on the side of the slab. on the state quarter with my eye 70 or 69 they look the same to me ICG wants to call them 70 that cool with me.

kobrakoins

ICG used to be good like ANACS is today but they will grade almost anything MS and PR70 .Now the 70s are all over coin world.

braddick

True. But that also is a statement on proof State Quarters.

DCAMFranklin

EVillageProwler recently had a submission to NGC which included 3 early date Walkers that were cracked out of their ICG holders. ALL 3 of the Walkers received a higher grade from NGC than they did from ICG. Here is the link to the thread:

LINK

gmarguli

Without re-reading that thread, didn't he say they were early slabs he purchased. That would be back when they graded tough to present themselves as good as PCGS/NGC. Then no one submitted and they became ACG II.

Russ

<< <i>didn't he say they were early slabs he purchased. >>



Greg,

You are, of course, correct.



<< <i>and they became ACG II. >>



Correct twice in one post.

Russ, NCNE

tradedollarnut

Yes, he stated that they were very early slabs.

EVillageProwler

ICG has saturated the market with MS/PR70 moderns. They are not considered a real grading

Uh, excuse me, but the U.S. coin market does not revolve around moderns. They have standing, albiet not 1st tier standing, in many non-moderns series.

EVP

EVillageProwler

Without re-reading that thread, didn't he say they were early slabs he purchased.

Before this goes too much farther, let me point out that early slabs from PCGS and NGC can also result in upgrades today. Does that mean that PCGS and NGC have declined? Perhaps, but we attribute this phenomenon to grade-flation. But, with ICG, it's because they suck? That's quite a leap of logic... You may be correct in saying that ICG sucks nowadays, but not because my early ICG slabs did well relative to today's slabs.

Of course, for all you experienced folks out there, you do buy the coin instead of the holder, right?

Finally, to be precise, I bought the coins raw and submitted them to ICG a long time ago. I know, no big diff...

EVP

EVillageProwler

Actually, to be even more precise, I bought the coins raw, submitted one to PCGS and the other to NGC. Both were slabbed AU58. I cracked them out, and ICG gave 'em AU55. This was a few years ago. I'd always hoped for an UNC grade, so I tried again, recently, with NGC. At least NGC is consistent... AU58 both times, separated by a few years. (Or, could be just luck.)

EVP

KlectorKid

<< <i>let me point out that early slabs from PCGS and NGC can also result in upgrades today >>

What u stated is correct but when u upgrade an old PCGS slab into a new one it doesnt change by as large margin.

EVillageProwler

What u stated is correct but when u upgrade an old PCGS slab into a new one it doesnt change by as large margin.

???

I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat with you, but it would be nice if you would substantiate what you wrote. For starters, what do you mean by a large margin? And, please keep in mind that going from AU50 to AU55 is a 5-point margin, but is a lot less significant than going from MS62 to MS64 (a 2-pt margin).

EVP

prooflike

I guess it is pretty much agreed upon (an exception or two) that ICG sucks as a grading service.

KlectorKid

U can not pin how large the margin is for a 69 it could be 1 for a 64 it could be 2 for XF it could be 5 and for F it could be 7. But there is a larger margin than PCGS or NGC. If u wish to dispute that search e-bay. They used to be a pretty good 3rd party grading company until they decided to give away 70's.

EVillageProwler

They used to be a pretty good 3rd party grading company until they decided to give away 70's.

It seems as if your perspective is of moderns. Try looking at ICG slabs of older coins, particularly of the 18th and 19th centuries. They may be beyond your budget, but you still may find them educational to eyeball.

I guess my point is that a reputable grading service isn't all bad, nor is any all good. And, even in those segments of the market where they are generally bad, you can still occasionally find nuggets that is good.

And, of course, this is true with all the reputable services. Yes, even PCGS and NGC.

In a nutshell, I think it is better not to speak in generalities because the market is too complicated for that...

EVP

wingedliberty

ICG must be really desperate if they are advertising $6 commem rates in Numismatic News and
clinging to an Ebay 2 year old snapshot survey that they are number one. Now, thats real desparation.

Happy holidays,
Brian

gmarguli

Before this goes too much farther, let me point out that early slabs from PCGS and NGC can also result in upgrades today. Does that mean that PCGS and NGC have declined? Perhaps, but we attribute this phenomenon to grade-flation. But, with ICG, it's because they suck? That's quite a leap of logic...

There is a difference. In the beginning of the PCGS/NGC days, they had a standard and over time (years) that standard evolved. What was originally agreed upon as an MS65 for one coin changed as they began to see how rare/common that coin was in that condition. That MS65 then could be an MS67 today because that patriculat type of coin just doesn't come nice. That doesn't mean PCGS/NGC sucks.

However, with ICG they came into the market when a standard was already established. PCGS/NGC set that standard. And while people can argue whether the PCGS & NGC standard is the same, no one can argue that they aren't VERY close.

ICG started out grading tight to be just like PCGS/NGC or a little stricter. No submissions. They loosened up a bit. No submissions. Repeat. Now they grade very loose. After all, why would I send my coin to ICG for $30 to be graded MS65 when I can send it to PCGS/NGC for $30 and get it graded MS65? I'd have to be stupid to give it to a 2nd tier service.

ICG had to do something about this. They responded by overgrading most every coin. I understand from what some people say that they grade some series on par with PCGS/NGC. However, that is the exception and not the norm.

Anyone who wants to see how well ICG grades needs only look at the prices realized. They are MUCH lower than that of PCGS/NGC.

ICG overgrades based on the market accepted standard. They might be consistent (I personally don't think so), but they are not strict.



Of course, for all you experienced folks out there, you do buy the coin instead of the holder, right?

No. I buy the slab. If I were to buy the coin then I would have to learn how to grade and I cannot possibly take the time to do this. BTW, I hire people to chew my food for me also.



Finally, to be precise, I bought the coins raw and submitted them to ICG a long time ago. I know, no big diff...

A good question would be what would those coins grade today at ICG?

RotatedRainbows

What u stated is correct but when u upgrade an old PCGS slab into a new one it doesnt change by as large margin.

I am not sure what you consider a large change but I remember back in the early 90's hearing about someone who took a PCGS MS64 Morgan cracking it and resubmitting it to PCGS where it came back as MS68!! Now I don't know about you but I would not want to buy a coin that is one day slabbed 64 and 68 the next, either the new owner got robbed or who ever sent it in the first (when it came back 64) got robbed.

KlectorKid

<< <i>I guess my point is that a reputable grading service isn't all bad, nor is any all good. And, even in those segments of the market where they are generally bad, you can still occasionally find nuggets that is good. >>



Very well put, I agree with u entirely

jtryka

So, perhaps ICG overgrades moderns, so what? Personally, I couldn't care less about moderns, and the most I would pay for any coin post 1964, whether MS-65 or MS-70, or PCGS, ICG, ANACS or NGC, is $5. That's all. If they are below MS-65, I'll give you face and spend them. I've submitted coins to ICG, and been pleased with the results (not pleased in a way that a modern collector feels when they get that elusive 1-point jump in grade that is tantamount to a winning lottery ticket since there are so many ill-informed registry idiots willing to throw money at such a "grade rarity," which in itself is merely another way of saying, "I'd like to steal your money, would that be all right with you?"). On older series, ICG has done well by my standards for accuracy, and they have even undergraded a few coins and shockingly enough to you PCGS monkeys have even body bagged coins! For specific examples, I had a 13-D Saint come back AU-58 that was a sure unc, and a 14-S Saint come back AU-58 that was at least unc. I have had an Indian Cent (those were before the Lincoln series, and before the advent of zinc, for all you modern junkies) come back BB for quesitonable color, and a Bust half (that was way before Kennedy) that was BB for cleaning. I have had Frankins graded there, all fairly graded, and they are surprisingly stingy on the FBL designation. That's my experience, but all you modern morons, keep believing that ICG sucks, and I'll continue to find wonderful bargains in their holders.

And here's a reality check for you, I have a 1938 Mercury, nice pretty white coin in a PCGS holder that says "MS-67" and from what I can tell there are just a few hundred graded that high with a dozen or two higher at MS-68, and that's about a $40 coin. How much would it be worth if it was a State quarter minted last year? Answer that question honestly, and you'll understand why this whole debate just ticks me off to no end!

Russ

jtryka,

Is it really that difficult to discuss the merits of a grading company without stooping to insulting other collectors simply for what they choose to collect? Apparently for you, it is.

Russ, NCNE

KlectorKid

<< <i>but all you modern morons >>

Not cool...

FatMan

jtryka
"ill-informed registry idiots"
"PCGS monkeys"
"modern morons"
Why do you feel this is necessary. You have some ICG experiences to share that are appropriate to this thread. Your post could have been beneficial to many, however, you have polluted your post with insults. If you wanted to influence opinions and contribute to this forum you have blown it. As I am now unable to respect you, I am unable to respect your opinions as well.
I will save my time in the future by simply bypassing all your posts.

jtryka

I'm so sorry Russ and everyone else, I forgot this was the PCGS board, so free exchange of ideas is not welcome, unless it's to bash the competition. I am really sick of the ICG sucks, NGC sucks threads. If you are offended, sorry, but I cannot deny that fact that if you are paying thousands of dollars for 2-year old clad coins because of the plastic they are in, you are indeed an idiot. It doesn't make you a bad person, just stupid in my opinion. And no, I am not insulting the people who collect coins, I have the utmost respect for them, I am insulting the people that collect slabs of plastic that have high numbers on them. And if you think modern junkies are actually collecting coins, then ask yourself the following questions:

1. Why are you whining about one grading service assigning an MS-70 while another grades it only MS-69?
2. What is the difference in price you would pay between a raw coin and one slabbed MS-69 or MS-70?
3. If you really collect coins and not slabs, why don't you just crack all your moderns and leave them raw?

jtryka

You know fatman, last I checked, we haven't yet repealed the First Amendment, so my ability to express myself in the strongest possible terms has not been abridged. That said, you are perfectly within your right to ignore me. It really doesn't bother me. As far as my language, those who know me, know that this is very unusual for me, and that said, I do not take any of it back nor will I apologize for losing my patience on this board. Those strong words are meant to prove a point, that some of us are really fed up with the disingenuous whining and complaining about grading companies, grades, slabs, etc. and the view by most on this board that coins are merely the annoying disks of metal that PCGS and others have to put in their plastic. Why not just dispense with the whole thing and put photos in the slabs? At least then PCGS would solve the fingerprint problem.

Russ

jtryka,

You know what? I collect moderns. Want to know something else? I'm having a ton of fun at this. Maybe you should try collecting them. You seem to be miserable.

Russ, NCNE

jtryka

Russ,

I do collect moderns, and I have just about every one, all nicely displayed in Whitman and Dansco albums. I actually enjoy them, but I just get annoyed at the slabbed modern mania that seems to be an endless topic of conversation around here. Unfortunately, you just hit the jackpot in this thread of me erupting my angst and frustration over all the whining and complaining because someone's coin only got a PR-68 from PCGS and not the PR-69 it deserved. Just take my outburst for what it is. If any of you choose to ignore and ostracize me for my words, go ahead, it's human nature to pass judgement on someone for one action rather than the whole of a person. Am I miserable? No, I'm actually in a fairly good mood today, and I am looking forward to a relaxing weekend.

wingedliberty

Obviously a novice and unsophisticated collector. It is evident when one equates mintage figures
with grade survival, it speaks volumes about their level of numismatic development or lack thereof.
It is also evident that when one cannot have a free exchange of ideas without resorting to insults,
one also has no concept of the first ammendment.


Happy holidays,
Brian.

crito

I jumped on the ICG bandwagon early, mainly because I liked the Intercept Shield gasket (the black inserts). The weren't just tough, they undergraded and bodybagged worse than PCGS. I've had an ICG AU55 go MS61. Now they've shifted to the other end of the spectrum, and not just with moderns. It's a double whammy for me. I lost value when they undergraded them originally, and I'm losing more now that their reputation has gone out the window. That AU55 would fetch XF money, at most, in their holder today. So I have no choice but to crack them out. Which makes my initial investment in ICG slabs a complete waste of money. A mistake I don't intend to repeat.

jtryka, you need to get your Prozac prescription refilled and if EVP really thought ICG was so great, he wouldn't be crossing their coins. IMHO.

Oh, if I don't reply to any sharp retorts, it's not because I didn't read them, I'm ignoring you

cladking

There are lots of modern rarities which can be acquired for $5, though
many of them can't.

Perhaps now we should all slam any coins which we don't collect and
elaborate on why and how little they are worth.

By the same token it seems unlikely that many grading services get them
all wrong. Perhaps we would do well to avoid blanket negatives about
things some people feel strongly about. Perhaps we need a thread to
find out what we feel strongly about.

gwr4

I didn't expect to go so far here.
I have read the board for months and months.
Figured I get in.
You all have had tons to share, heck I even learn stuff here!
BUT
Back to the original topic.
Please visit Nightmare on ICG Street Part II, you'll see what I mean.

jtryka

Brian,



<< <i>Obviously a novice and unsophisticated collector. It is evident when one equates mintage figures with grade survival, it speaks volumes about their level of numismatic development or lack thereof. >>



I don't recall mentioning mintage figures, much less equating them with grade survival. You are free to question my level of sophistication as a collector, but I would more seriously question your own literacy and penchant for revisionism.



<< <i>It is also evident that when one cannot have a free exchange of ideas without resorting to insults, one also has no concept of the first ammendment. >>



It must have been in the history book that you wrote which omitted the insults of our founding fathers against George III and his associates, it seems to me John Hanc--k (Sorry, our Founding Father's name has been sensored by the kind folks at PCGS) had a few nice ones. Of course they had no concept of the First Amendment as it's been twisted today. I'll leave you with a couple of nice quotes:

"A sophisticated rhetorician, inebriated with the exuberance of his own verbosity." and "Little things affect little minds."

wallstreetman

jtryka, The # on the slab represents the condition of the coin, last I heard, the condition of the coin makes a difference in its value!

wallstreetman

and yes, these #s are correct most of the time!

EVillageProwler

if EVP really thought ICG was so great, he wouldn't be crossing their coins.

I can see why you may consider this a possibility, but the real reason that I cracked out my ICG coins was because I was hoping for upgrades. And, I got the upgrades. For the '27-S and '29-S (or '29-D, whatever), I was hoping one of them would UNC.

And, just for the record, I really don't think any service is so great with regard to their grading. Grading is too subjective for me to get so worked up over a company. I'd rather exercise my expertise the best I can to picking the best coins at the lowest price possible. To me, that's more of a challenge!

EVP