To all those who think us investors are clueless...

Jamericon

With all apologies for getting nasty before Santa's party, and after reading a few posts, I would like to say a few thing about us collectors who dare mention the word investor in the same sentence. My name is Jamericon. Most of you have seen me around for quite a while. I am a veteran, 17 years with this hobby, know a lot about it and will be taking it to my grave. I consider myself an investing collector, for lack of a better title. Notice that the subject is 'collector', that is, I collect US coins above all. I specialize in key date and better date type. I do my research, plan my purchases and choose for eye appeal and quality. I read all I can get my hands on. I could go on and on, but most simply I love collecting coins. Everything about it More than most things in my life, except family.

That is how I collect coins.

Now for the investing part. Over the last three years I have averaged $1500 a year on new coins and currency. 95% of this is purchased for the long term. I am 28 and assume to be collecting for at least 40 more years. Extrapolated out that equates to $60,000 over the next four decades. Adjust for inflation, rising salary, more expendable cash, etc., and I expect to spend close to $100,000 in my lifetime on coins and currency. Would that much spent on any other type of investment seem foolish if you did not expect a return? So quite simply, if I am going to spend that much money I would like to see some type of return on my investment.

That is how I invest in coins.

I don't look for overnite profits like some. I am working towards my profits, by using patience and knowledge. So please don't assume that all investors are the same.

Some of us love the hobby for what it is!

Thank you for reading this.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Trime

Jamericon,
Sounds like a good strategy for collecting but I hope you put some money aside as more liquid assets.

FatMan

Jamericon

Not very nasty at all. I think you will find that most collectors think in terms of some kind of return over years of holding. As long as you have a diversified portfolio and not using your coin collecting as your primary investment, you are fine. I believe most of the negative posts youve seen are directed to those that look for short term gains, which in doing so often make market pricing quite volitile.

BIGDAVE

Jamericon
If it Was not for Collector / investor , for the long term ,there would not be much of a coin market,it is People like you with insight who make a market for coins.keep up the good work ignore anyone who says anything bad about collector/investors..and in 20 years i hope to see the Jamericon collection selling at auction for $30,000,000

Good luck

TheNumish

Jamericon,
It seems you are being wise about how you buy and therefore should do fine. Just being on the message board shows you are leagues ahead of the average investor. For me people who invest in rare coins that are NOT collectors are doomed to lose money. IMHO It's just a simple reality.

tompkins

Jamericon:
I am not intending to refute or disagree with anything you say. In fact, I applaud your very focused and deliberate style of collecting/investing. But, to put things a litle bit in perspective, in that same forty years you will probably also spend about $60,000 on cars (one $15,000 car every ten years), which clearly is not an investment. I guess all I'm saying is that the amount of money doesn't define something as an investment. I have spent more than that over the last several years, and I guess I view it as sort of 20% "hobby" and 80% (long term) investment/hobby. That is, 20% I may buy solely because I want it NOW, knowing full well it will probably be worth less a year from now. but that's really no different than spending that money on tickets to a play or a basketball game. As long as you recognize what you are doing. The other 80%, I expect to retain its value (more or less) over the short run and, hopefully, increase over the longer run---I rarely sell coins except when I upgrade, so I'm here for the long haul.

While you view coins as an investment/hobby, someone else might spend the same amount of money purely as a hobby. For example, I have bought high grade modern quarters in order to be the "first out of the gate", knowing full-well that they will probably decline (unless I happen to pick the one that isn't going to have any more 68's). In my case, that is my exception. Most everything else, I expect to keep for a lone time and see most of them appreciate (or at least break even in the case of the recent modern proofs) over time.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with your style: in fact I frequently wish I had that discipline, myself.

Good luck and best regards,

Pete

Jamericon

Thanks for the responses guys. You are correct, most threads are about the overnite profit seekers, just sometimes it seems like any one who dare says they invest in coins gives the hobby a black label. It is just not true.

And rest assured, coins are not the basis for my retirement. My wife and I have our goals and have started on them. Our portfolio is diversified in other, more tradional investments.

Coins are an add on!

Dog97

Sounds good to me! You really don't seem like an investor, rather (to borrow words from sincerly micheal) an "astute" collector. You can never go wrong with better dates, especially if you are picky about the quality. Some collectors are happy go lucky with their coin purchases and could care less, which is fine also. Even though you are only 28 you sound like a grumpy old collector like a few of us that don't mind making a little $$ at sale time.
Since you sound like you were expecting flames I'll go ahead & give you some:

fcloud

Jamericon,

Sound good to me. I think of investor/collector as collector. You need to make knowledgeable choices, as to protect your investments. I'd bet that most collectors are careful not to throw money away on bad choices.

No flames from me!

Tony

MrKelso

Excellent way to go. Add a little Gold,Silver and Platinum for the long haul and your all set. Good Post.

Jamericon

To Tompkins: I agree with you, but I do not look at cars as an investment. Cars are purchased as everyday neccesities, knowing full well their value drops for every oil change they get. You could relate that thinking to many other things, i.e. food, clothing, toilet paper. Coins, on the other hand, are purchased as a luxury, and to that extent I can control the investment potential.

To Dog97: 28 yes, but with the traditional thinking of an old-schooler.

smprfi

Well said and that is my approach also.It is not what I rely on for the future just a nice little luxury added on to the porfolio.

kranky

Jamericon, you aren't an investor, and by your own admission you call yourself an "investing collector". Reading your comments about how you collect, I can't quibble with it at all. You come across as a person who is knowledgeable about coins, and you collect with an eye to hopefully getting future appreciation. Nothing wrong with that, as no collector wants to think they are flushing their money down the toilet! I think we'd all like to believe we can at least get our money out of our collections if and when the time comes to sell.

I know I have disparaged "investing in coins" in previous posts. If you felt I was talking about you, I wasn't. I will continue to discourage people who want to spend a lot of money on coins without knowing the difference between PCGS and ACG, without knowing the difference between Legend Numismatics and the dealers who have 8-page ads in Coin World, and without knowing the difference between original mint luster and a whizzed coin. The odds are overwhelming that those people are going to get killed.

People with your credentials are savvy enough to know exactly what they are buying. They are not clueless. But the people who want to spend big money without knowing any more about coins than I do about collectible toys (which is nil) need to know that it's all too easy to buy an expensive education.

And by the way, your post totally lacked nastiness. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, also!

Bear

Dog-97 - I loved your flames. In fact I am going out to

buy a bag of marshmellows to roast over the flame.

DaveG

Okay, I just have to flame you:

You need to be a lot more clueless to be one of the "investors" we usually mock here!

How dare you call yourself an "investor"!

Go out and buy some of those 1933 Double Eagle proofs and then come back and tell us you're an "investor"!

(Sorry, best I could think of at short notice)

Bulldog

Jamericon,

I see absolutely nothing wrong with you or your plan. Most kids at your age can't even plan ahead, as to what they want on their Pizza.

I invest/collect as well. I never have any intention on getting a payout on my collection, other than watching from "up above", on how the kids are going to figure out why I had so many coins and how in the sam hell are they going to turn that crap into cash! Cause when you are dead Fred, it just does not matter!

On my investment side, I have been very lucky with buying bulk collections from others, upgrading my collection and dumping the left overs. If I make a few bucks over and above the coins I keep, I am a clear winner. If I just break even and pay for the coins I keep, I am still a winner. As of yet, I have not lost.

When I want to make more money, I work harder. My Security is assured for old age. The pleasure that I receive from collecting, wheeling and dealing, is unsurpassed by any other venture that I have undertaken.

Good Luck to you, keep both oars in the water and may your journey be memorable and smooth!

Bulldog

stujoe

<< <i> I am a veteran, 17 years with this hobby, know a lot about it and will be taking it to my grave. >>



Well, I hope that you decide to share some of it.



<< <i>but most simply I love collecting coins. Everything about it More than most things in my life, except family. >>



Face it. You're a collector.

To me, anyway, investors are people who buy the coins (or have others buy the coins for them) but have no real interest in them other than a return. Truthfully, I think those people are few and far between at the typical coin buyer level.

Most people, no matter how little they spend, know in the back of their minds that the odds are good that this is a hobby that can bring a return on the money spent unoike many others. Nothing wrong with that, in my way of thinking. Just don't put all your investments in one basket.

coinrookie

Nothing wrong with your concept. I buy mainly modern proofs.(70s-current) Also high grade MS type coins from 1800s to early 60s. But I also intend to hold on to these until I take the big Dirt Nap. I go for the highest quality possible. So I figure in 30 or 40 years or so I will see some small appreciation. The only investors that I have a problem with are those that do not do their homework and think they can make a killing overnight.

pmh1nic

I think most of the flaming regarding coins as an investment centers around looking at coins as a PRIMARY investment vehicle. That I think is a mistake. In my opinion any thought of coins being viewed as an investment should be a view of them as a small part of an investment portfolio.

The second mistake is putting money into coins as an investment without having done any research. As I'm sitting here typing there is some guy on the HSN hocking complete sets of Silver Eagles and State Quarters as great investments. I'm about ready to gag not because they are moderns but because they are being hocked as items that "are sure to going up in price...that's a given"..."there are going to be fist fights for these quarter."

I realize that a strategy like the one being used by Jamicon can have positive results but coins would not be my first, second or third choice as an investment vehicle. I collect because I enjoy the history, artistry and science encompassed in the hobby. The coins I collect embody these things. I think these are endure qualities that will be appreciated in every generation and for that reason I believe the coins I collect will hold or appreciate in value. That said I'm not counting on that appreciate for my retirement security.

Jamericon

Thanks for all the replies guys!

Frankly, I do not agree with fly-by-nighters who spend large amounts of money with no knowledge. They are stupid, no question. As we all know, making money with coins takes longer and is more deliberate, than other more mainstream investments.

But there are other investors, those who take the time to know the hobby, i.e., read the book before the coin, and learn something. Those are the ones who will still be here in decades to come, driving this hobby to new levels.

cladking

The biggest problem with collectibles as an investment is that there can be no sure thing.
No matter how well planned, no matter how well executed, and no matter how knowledgable
the investor, one is still entirely dependent on the unknowable- - what future collectors will
desire.

It seems you're already experiencing the other problem with investing in coins. It's very dif-
ficult not to become more and more a collector.

roadrunner

Unfortunately, in the current markets I do look upon coins as essentially a primary investment vehicle. I see no other investment medium currently (stocks, real estate, bonds, CD) that I could consider as a long term strategy, that is unless you count shorting stocks as a long term strategy or buying antiques, arts and other tangibles.

Like Jamericon I am happy to be a collector investor or investor collector. I have no specific accumulation goals or set to complete.
Just to buy the best quality and value available to you.

roadrunner

Bulldog

One nice thing about coins, Is that when the NUKES start flying,The Gov't will be interested in your coins, to make bullets and Airplane parts.


I know I know, Tis the season and all.......

Bulldog