What to do?-You decide...FINAL RESOLUTION

danglen

Sold a 1997 Silver Eagle PCGS MS-69 to a guy for $50.00. He declined insurance, but I sent it with USPS Delivery Confirmation. Over thirty days have gone by, and I get an email from this person wondering when I'm going to ship his coin. I check the USPS "Track and Confirm" website, and it states the coin was delivered on November 11th at 1:16 PM. I already have a pretty good idea what I'm going to do, but thought I would get some forum input before I proceed.

I have posted a lengthier reply elsewhere on this thread, but here is the short version:

As to the resolution of this problem, I have offered to sell the buyer another SE at half price, which he has agreed to do. I will take a bit of a hit on the second coin, but not enough so that it will spoil my Christmas dinner

Dog97

Delivery Confirmation does not really mean anything. Delivery Confirmation includes leaving the delivery under the bush in your neighbors yard because you wasn't home.
You have 2 choices:
You can be a harda$$ and say it was delivered, too bad so sad.
Or you can realize that he maybe never did actually get it and refund his money or send him another one.
I just shipped a $50 coin to a board member and for the same postal price I sent it insured. I insured it for $51 so the PO would actually make somebody sign for it. It cost $3.26 and the peace of mind is worth it, especially at Christmas time when the mail is overloaded & gone postal.
ps it wasn't me even though it's a 97.

darktone

If the buyer declined insurance and you have proof it was delivered with delivery confirmation I would then take a picture of the delivery confirmation ticket and email it to him so you can prove to him it was sent and tell him sorry but there is nothing you can do for him. mike

lordmarcovan

I would do what Darktone said, to prove I was not obligated in any way. But I would make a sympathy gesture of some kind; send him a raw Silver Eagle, maybe. Something worth around ten bucks or so, maybe (or whatever you decide is fair), with the unspoken message being,

"Here is a consolation coin. I didn't have to send you anything at all as I fulfilled my responsibilities in the matter, but this is to let you know I feel your pain."

Or something like that. But only if he's been polite and you feel like doing it. Otherwise, it sounds like you'd be within your rights to say, "Too bad, so sad."

TWQG

Declined insurance? Too bad so sad.

Spooly

Darktone is right scan the ticket, send the picture with a link to the USPS website so the buyer can check it for himself.


This is why I always ship: Priority Mail, Delivery Confirmation, Insured.

stman

If I was selling something it would have to be insured. I think auctions that are leaving it up to the buyer to accept or decline insurance are just asking for problems. JMO

Loki

I agree with stman. The buyer and seller both have piece of mind. Also, the buyer is not given the opportunity to a receive the item, then claim that it wasn't received.

danglen

The problem with requiring insurance, is that I sell many items in the $10.00 range. And unless you buy $100.00 worth of insurance from the Post Office, no signature is required, so you never really know whether the buyer got the coin or not. I offer a private postal insurance program to buyers where they can get up to $100.00 worth of insurance for $1.25. But why make everyone pay for an occasional item that gets lost? In 2002 I have insured 290 items, and have had one claim. One way to go might be to charge a higher shipping charge on coins over a certain value, but include insurance in the shipping charges. All that being said, it still doesn't address the original question, which is "what do I do in this instance?"

Bulldog

Dang,

Send a nice apolagetic letter, explain how you encourage insurance and it was declined,Explain how you added the delivery confirmation on your own. Send a copy of the completed delivery confirmation. And end with how sorry you are. End of deal

Bulldog

FatMan

Ditto to the Bulldog

Then - for future auctions make insurance required and include it in your shipping & handling so if this happens ever again it becomes the USPS's problem and not yours.

airplanenut

<< <i>Dang, Send a nice apolagetic letter, explain how you encourage insurance and it was declined,Explain how you added the delivery confirmation on your own. Send a copy of the completed delivery confirmation. And end with how sorry you are. End of deal Bulldog >>

What he said

DCAMFranklin

That is why I ship every coin, including $10 coins, first class, insured. Yes, I don't have a signature assuring that the package was delivered. But what do I care about a signature? What does the buyer care? What we are both interested in is receiving the coin or a full refund for the buyer, paid for by the Post Office.

Send him a full refund or a replacement coin. Insist upon postal insurance from this point forward.

danglen

DCAM, before I give any serious validity to your answer, maybe you can give me your eBay seller ID so I can check out your auctions. For a guy that prefers to remain totally annonymous, you sure don't seem to mind spending other folks money. There is also the issue of the time it takes to file a claim with the USPS. The seller has to fill out the claim forms, mail them to the buyer for a signature, then heve the signed form returned to the buyer, who has to take them to the Postmaster along with proof of purchase. For a ten dollar coin? PHULEEEEZZZZ

BIGDAVE

I Have had that Happen A Lot ,But I send everything with ins even if they dont want it, and with delivery confirmation, i just copy and paste the delivery confimation ,and email them, and tell the date and time it was delivered . that has always made them remember OH YEA i got the coin . the PO will not pay out on INS if it is a confirmed delivery

danglen

Big Dave, if I were selling coins in your auction's price range I would insist on insurance too

stman

I'm going to be honest here. Even if it's insured and get's lost I don't feel the buyer should have to wait for a refund from the PO. I feel if packages don't get lost that often, the seller should make good to the buyer as a good business and get his refund from the PO.

I feel very strong on the fact there is too many problems over shipping and insurance. If you say you never lose any shipments then make good on this one and just write it off as the cost of doing business. I've said this before I always get a kick out of buying something through the mail, they say this will cost you X amount, and if you want to receive this item, it will cost you more. Think about it. Maybe this is why I don't do much on ebay or mail order.

But I am self employed and know how to run a business.

BIGDAVE

danglen

These Items I send REGISTERD mail with ins and delivery confirmation ..i eat the extra charges

Dog97

>>>>>it still doesn't address the original question, which is "what do I do in this instance?" >>>>>
Since you failed to protect yoursel that the buyer would actually receive the coin and took a gamble on it's safe arrival by not using shipping that you could prove the coin was really delivered, (like I said Delivery Confirmation only confirms that the postman left it SOMEWHERE, not that it was delivered to the right person & adress) you owe the buyer a coin or refund.

>>>>But why make everyone pay for an occasional item that gets lost?>>>>
Why take a chance on another collector not getting their coin?

Unless you sent it the cheapskate way in a #10 envelope with a 37¢ stamp & 55¢ del confirm you probably sent it Priority for $3.85 than added .55¢ for Del Confirm which is about $2 more than you needed to spend on shipping. Most of the time First Class gets there faster anyway.

So how did you ship it and how much did you charge the seller to ship the coin he never got?
Maybe there's a cheaper better way for you to ship.

Spooly

stman, "title" changes from the seller to the buyer at the point of shipment. The buyer should have paid for the insurance.

BIGDAVE

danglen
email him .. let him know about the delivery confirmation ,give him the date and time he got the coin , and that the ins wont pay because he got it. and see what his response is ,it might jog his memory.. and NEVER send anything without ins and confirmation again..........


$1 to $49 ins and confirmation
$50 to $99 Real ins and confirmation
$100 To $149 priority mail and ins and confirmation
$150 and up REGISTERED MAIL ins and confirmation

My answer is you are not responsible, if you had got insurance the po would deny the claim because it was a confirmed delivery .so end of subject the po would not pay so why sould you?

stman

Agreed, I would have paid for the insurance.

Bulldog

I have a question. We have addressed the occassional Loss of items thru the USPS system. Well certainly with all the Items that are lost, where are they? Is there a big pile of coins laying in the corner of all post offices? What happens to them? Does the Post office raffle off this stuff, put it on Ebay? Or hand it out as employee incentive gifts.


You don't think any of this stuff gets stolen by employees do you?

I am just looking for an answer as to Who, What, Where, When and How! Heck with the WHY!

Bulldog

supercoin

I generally don't send items of that price range with any insurance. Unless you're springing for the $100 kind (signature required) it doesn't make it any more likely to arrive.

Unless specifically requested otherwise by the buyer, I just "self insure" and if the buyer says he didn't get it, he gets a fast refund or replacement. Easier all the way around than filing a claim with the Post Office, and monetarily I've come out ahead in the long run vs. buying the bogus post office insurance.

That said, if you offered and he declined insurance, and you have proof not only that you mailed it but that it was delivered somwhere... I'm with the "too bad" votes. But be nice about it.

relayer

I only had 1 coin lost in the mail - A 1999 SBA PR69DC for $18. I had duplicates, so I just sent another.

If you have the delivery confirmation, just send that to the buyer explaining the post office states they delivered it. Since he didn't buy insurance, it's not your problem.

MWallace

The Post Office also offers a service called "Signature Confirmation". It's just like "Delivery Confirmation" except that a signature is required at the time of delivery.

Read about Signature Confirmation here.

Twowood

I'm sorry to say that I'll reluctantly vote with the "Too Bad" crowd.
You acted in good faith and should not be penalized because the buyer made a bad decision.
I wish ALL sellers would include insurance in their S&H charges to avoid these problems. Twowood

UncleJoe

You have proof that you sent the coin and that is all that the buyer required you to do.

IMO you owe him nothing. If there is some way to soften the blow, that might be nice but you are not obligated to do so.

As far as insurance is concerned, I agree that high ticket items (you decide what high ticket is to you) need to have insurance included in S&H.

As far as peronal experience, this last year I have mailed and received slightly over 200 packages. One was "lost" coming to me and one was "lost" that I mailed. The one coming to me was for $8. which the buyer required insurance in S&H . I told him not to file a claim as I didn't want to be bothered with the paperwork for $5.50 (you don't get the postage back).

The package that I mailed that got "lost" was for $12. and no insurance. I did not have proof of mailing because I put it in a bubble mailer with correct postage and drop it in my mail kiosk (which is how I handle most of my mailings with no problems except this one). For whatever reason, I decided to refund the money (low dollar amount helped) even though I don't think I was under any obligation to do so.

In danglen's case however, I would send the buyer a copy of the mailing receipt to show that you fulfilled your obligation to mail the coin and not refund his money.

Joe.

danglen

Thanks for all of your replies. I kind of feel like this is a microcosm of the US Congress, with opinions ranging from the far right to the far left. But good dialogue is healthy, and although I don't agree with everyone, I appreciate everyone's input. If nothing else, it balances my thought process.

As to the resolution of this problem, I have offered to sell the buyer another SE at half price, which he has agreed to do. I will take a bit of a hit on the second coin, but not enough so that it will spoil my Christmas dinner

For those of you who were of the opinion a buyer should never have to wait for the Post Office to process a claim, I agree. That's one of the reasons I shifted to private postal insurance. If a coin is insured and lost, I immediately replace the coin or refund the money (including postal charges).

And to everyone that took the time to post an answer on this thread, Happy Holidays and have a Great 2003.

Petescorner

King Solomon would have been proud!

BIGDAVE

Make sure you insure it and delivery confirmation.....................

darktone

Dan, you are much kinder than I would have been. If the roles were switched around and I refused insurance and the coin never arrived at my house I would not expect the seller to help out as I would have accepted the risk of a loss when I refused the insurance. mike

meos1

Lord Marcovan had it right... I would do what Darktone said, to prove I was not obligated in any way. But I would make a sympathy gesture of some kind; send him a raw Silver Eagle, maybe. Something worth around ten bucks or so, maybe (or whatever you decide is fair), with the unspoken message being,

"Here is a consolation coin. I didn't have to send you anything at all as I fulfilled my responsibilities in the matter, but this is to let you know I feel your pain."

Or something like that. But only if he's been polite and you feel like doing it. Otherwise, it sounds like you'd be within your rights to say, "Too bad, so sad."

From here forward require insurance, or allow them to decline with an e-mail from the buyer stateing the declination. Tell them no further assistance will be provided if the insurance is declined.

keets

..........i would realize that insurance is protection for the sender as well as the person receiving a package. you probably should have paid the $1.30 or whatever it was for insurance and protected yourself against loss. it seems that now your choice is determined by whether or not you think this guy is honest or not, but absent any proof to the contrary it seems also that you'll have to make it right or tell him too bad, he should have paid for insurance. difficult choice avoided by insuring yourself.

al h.

ARCO

I make insurance mandatory for this very reason. He declined the insurance, the coin is lost and it is his loss not yours.

Break the bad news and then rub it in HAH HAH, told you so!! Just kidding about rubbing it in.

Tyler

ms71

It's a little odd that a buyer wouldn't pony up all of $1.25 to protect himself on a $50 item he really wanted. If it was an eBay deal, I wonder what his feedback looks like? Personally, I'd probably eat it & learn from the experience that nothing over (say) $25 goes without the insurance, build it into the shipping charge & make that clear up front. In hundreds of items I've lost only one - I ate it. But then i didn't have deliv confirmation, it was only a few bucks.