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GAI Grading
lapremidi
Posts: 12 ✭
Just curious as a new member. . . does anyone put any stock in this company for grading? I know a bit about their history but rarely ddo I see their material in the market place or for sale on e-bay. I have actually purchased a couple of cards they have graded and have been really pleased.
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Now -- here is my question about them. I can *swear* that at the Ft. Washington show, I saw GAI cards graded 8.5 and 9.5. I have *absolutely no clue* what those grades are -- and what they represent. They never had the half grades before -- so I was quite surprised to see that. Anyone else at the show confirm...?
Marc
GAI 8.5
54 Red Hearts
and now 64 Stand ups
I think they went to the half point a couple of months ago at most...
As for GAI love them nice holders, actually have purchased some
very nice vintage in the past month all but 1 has pull the grade..
Matt
Thinking with head instead of heart and in my humble opinion, they are already a first tier service and will be considered in the top three services by this time next year, whether we PSA heads like it or not.
A number of "name" dealers seem to be displaying their cards at the shows. My observation is that these are not selling well.
While I am only one buyer, I am trying to avoid doing business with those dealers that are pushing the gai product.
Davalillo
1. No written grading criteria.
2. Perception of conflict of interest with their head authenticator being the leading wax dealer.
3. Inconsistent grades.
That said, they have not (to my knowledge) slabbed a high-profile fake, and have rejected a good portion of the packs submitted. In my experience their customer service was unparalleled.
I don't trust them for singles, yet. PSA has occasionally made a mistake and slabbed some Broder's, but take a look at this. Yikes!
Joe
Half-points...It's brand new. Less than a month old. They'll take their time in getting the word out (see my earlier post). They spread themselves a little thin sometimes. It's been almost a year since they started working on getting a registry up and running. Still notta. They've put a substantial amount of energy and money into their PEOPLE to ensure the top-level grading and consistency we're seeing. They are authenticating evrything from signatures and unopened material to women's designer handbags. It appears that they will stop at nothing to hire the industry leaders of any and all fields to authenticate these items. There's a television and radio show they do as well. Paul echoed one point of mine in particular--their holder is the hobby's best. It brings up a question: How would we feel about PSA re-designing their holder. I realize we all have oodles of cash locked up in these "chicklet cases", but going forward it seems to be necessary. One of the first things people talk about when stating reasons for submitting to anyone besides PSA is "great looking holder". PSA's holder is, relative to the other two solid companies (SGC & GAI--spare me the Beckett stuff), far inferior at least aesthetically. Quite frankly, appearance means a lot when you're building a set you really love. I must say that '71's in the GAI holder get lost a bit for obvious reasons. But jumbo white bordered cards really pop.
Davalillo, Where's the love? You seem militant. Someone let the air out of your tires? You almost sound threatened. I know you assemble some heavyweight sets--that's nice--I wonder if this is just an honest loyalty to PSA or an old wound rearing it's ugly head. Please enlighten us if you'd feel comfortable and you haven't already in another thread I may have missed. You stated they "know how to grade cards", so this sounds personal.
Gaspipe, The registry has killed everyones business. Our collecting ego's require that we "celebrate self" on a daily basis. It's a shame I'm guilty of this. However, I have holdered quite a few HOF cards from the 60's and 70's with GAI--including a dozen of my best 77's. PSA is so inconsistent with the sets I'm doing it makes me nuts. I can't even get a handle on their standard anymore. We've beaten that idea to death, however.
Everyone, Have a safe and happy holiday season with emphasis on the safe. We have our differences throughout the year, but we all love the hobby and let's all meet back here ready to argue again next year!!! All the best to ALL!!!.....and the over/under on my weight gain the next two weeks is 6 pounds
I think they have had momentum for a long time -- but it is unclear to me where that momentum will go. Much like many promising baseball players -- potential fizzles out if it does not turn into something realizable and measurable.
I think the pack grading is a wonderful initiative -- but at some point, the submissions will drop off. I read that there were 400 vending boxes????? encapsulated recently -- at some point, the number of vintage packs to grade and encapsulate will fall. Right now, that is the strongest thing that GAI has going for it, and that is more Mark Murphy's baby than anything else.
Finally -- I think if they ever have a path to long-term success, they need the "buy-in" of some major graded-card collector. The names that pop into my head (Marshall, Branca, Louchios, Davalillo and others) all seem to be pretty happy with PSA. Charlie has a PSA-collection but seemed to be the closest one to being on the fence. But until there are major collectors pursuing high-grade and high-dollar GAI collections, then GAI still has a significant uphill battle.
You can certainly point to specific cards like the T3 Turkey Red Cobb GAI 8 that recently sold -- but many of those type of cards would sell for a premium as long as any verified them as authentic, unaltered and high-grade. I have no ill spirits for GAI cards -- but I do not think they have made much of a foothold in the place of one year.
Finally -- I am still disturbed by the GAI 9.5 grade. I know what a MINT card is, and I know what a GEM MINT card is. I have no freaking clue what a MINT+ card is. I have always disputed the sense of the difference between a GEM MINT and a PRISTINE cards (a la Beckett Grading) and I do not understand how any grading company can consistently differentiate between a MINT, a MINT+ and a GEM MINT card.
Marc
<< <i>Much like many promising baseball players -- potential fizzles out if it does not turn into something realizable and measurable.
>>
Mike Schmidt had one of the worst first seasons ever for a HOF player. Sometimes a slow start ain't all that bad.
<< <i>I have no freaking clue what a MINT+ card is. >>
Marc, haven't you stated before that some 10s in the 55 Bowman are weak? I am paraphrasing, but haven't you said that these are decent or strong 9s, but not really 10s? I guess my point is people often speak to a weak 10 or a strong 9. A 9.5 just states this by a number.
<< <i>I do not understand how any grading company can consistently differentiate between a MINT, a MINT+ and a GEM MINT card. >>
Some grading companies are having difficulties consistently differentiating between 7/8 or 8/9. So a 9/9.5 is no different than the status quo I guess.
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
The biggest obstacle for GAI, just as it is for SCD, and to a lesser extent SGC :
Until DEALERS can make MONEY by submitting their cards to these services,
they will remain mostly a curiosity.
Also, I'm not talking about grading a bunch of cards for free just to get the slabs out in the market,
I'm talking about the way it needs to work,
where BOTH the dealer and the grading company actually make a profit from the grading.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
<< <i>where BOTH the dealer and the grading company actually make a profit from the grading. >>
True.
I just noticed the general positive tone (or should I say not-negative tone) to GAI on this thread. Are people frustrated with PSA or seeing the better side of GAI?
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
My feelings about GAI reflect:
1)They were not very friendly to collectors(at least to me) during Rocchi's tenure. With Joe Orlando its like night and day. Strange as I may be the largest owner of psa cards in the hobby(in terms of numbers of cards).
2)As I have 85-90 graded sets vthat I am trying to build in 8 or better on the registry, the last thing I want to do is find cards I need in a GAI holder and then have to break them out and send them in. I simply do not have the time or desire to do this.
3)I have a huge vested interest in supporting PSA because of the financial investment I have in their cards.
4)There are many in the hobby who claim(there have been threads about this) that dealers would take cards that graded 8 to Baker personally for his review and get them upgraded. I have no knowledge personally of this.
So, there are dealers that I have regularly spent five figures with in past years that I am not doing any business with now. We'll see what happens here. I certainly do not get the impression from the Ft. Washington show that their cards are jumping off the tables.
Davalillo
<< <i>Finally -- I am still disturbed by the GAI 9.5 grade. I know what a MINT card is, and I know what a GEM MINT card is. I have no freaking clue what a MINT+ card is. I have always disputed the sense of the difference between a GEM MINT and a PRISTINE cards (a la Beckett Grading) and I do not understand how any grading company can consistently differentiate between a MINT, a MINT+ and a GEM MINT card. >>
My understanding is that GAI 9 is MINT, GAI 9.5 is GEM MINT, and GAI 10.0 is Pristine/Perfect (I think they call it a "Perfect 10").
S
GAI has in the past called their 10 grade GEM MINT. Various Mastro auctions confirm this -- here is one example:
Lot of 1968 Topps GAI 10 GEM MINT cards
Doug
<< <i>Sol:
GAI has in the past called their 10 grade GEM MINT. Various Mastro auctions confirm this -- here is one example:
Lot of 1968 Topps GAI 10 GEM MINT cards >>
I understand, but I think they changed the terminology...
Now I get your point. Well, at least there process isn't confusing and inconsistent!!
When graded cards became popular, PSA was the only real choice that people had. Everybody who did graded cards bought, sold, traded, and collected PSA graded cards. You had a lot of confidence in what you were collecting or dealing with because everybody else was collecting and dealing in the exact same thing. One nice big strong hobby "pie" with 100% support from everyone else in the graded card hobby. As the interest in graded cards increased, it benefited everybody involved. New grading companies started springing up, not from a desperate cry from the hobby for an alternative, but attraction to the scent of money to a businessperson desiring a piece of the pie. He wasn't grabbing a piece from a pie of limitless size and potential. He was adding another pie to choose from to the same amount of hobby interest and funds. With each new grading company the potential for a stronger, growing, and united hobby was being spread out thinner and thinner. As "waitilltheytrytosell" implies, when it comes time to liquidate your chosen pie, it is very important to you that there are other people out there who share your taste in pie. Where are your pie salesmen hiding? Why don't they want back the pie they've pushed to you? It is very easy to find people wanting to buy PSA. PSA has remained strong because of the support it has from the majority of the top collectors and dealers in the hobby. PSA product is liquid at a price. Some of the other products appeal to a much smaller market at a less competitive price. Many of the other products aren't liquid at any price. Widespread hobby loyalty to one product only makes it better for all involved. When you want to sell, you want everybody's attention.
Here's why I collect psa cards:
1. The set registry makes collecting 10x more fun.
2. Availability - try and build a 1965 from sgc or gai cards
3. Liquidity - they will bring more on resale and the demand is greater for them.
Things that I don't really like.
1. The holder - it's ugly at best.
2. Consistency - I believe that sgc and gai are probably just as good as psa if not better. I like the .5 point system that they offer also. I'm not saying psa is bad - just that the others are at least as good.
Psa has such a huge marketshare of the 1960's cards that it would be difficult to build a set in any other holder.
wayne
<< <i>Why don't they want back the pie they've pushed to you? >>
Money is made on the buy, not the sell.
The best time to consider the sale is BEFORE the buy.
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
Without the new companies and services coming in, we'd still be dealing with the draconian customer service and turnaround times that existed back in '99. I was one of the largest submitters, and some of my stuff took 2-3 months - I can only imagine what "Joe collector's" turnaround time was back then...
Competition is good.
As I've been nearing completion on my 75 set, I've been turning my attention to my 78s and 79s. The 78s will stay in PSA holders since I have a significant start on them (35%+). But. . .I can be convinced to move my 79s to another grading company, but so far PSA is the only grading company which will allow me to build a graded set on my terms. There are two main components which need to be in place for me to build a graded set.
1) When I submit my own cards, I almost always include a certain percentage of cards that I already have. This allows me to upgrade and/or trade off these duplicates for cards that I still need. With PSA-graded cards, I know there are other collectors willing and able to trade for these duplicates. So if another grading company wants me to build a set with them, they will have to find a way to entice enough collectors of the issue I'm building to make trading feasible.
2) About a month ago, I won several auctions for 1979T SGC96s. In all, I won 52 cards - AT AN AVERAGE OF $3.25 EACH! Now. . .there's absolutely no way a dealer can continute to sell at this price for very long. From a dealer's standpoint, they have to be able to at least break even or they'll just sit on their cards. If they do that, then the supply of already-graded cards dries up. And if I have to rely ONLY on my own submissions, I'd just as soon keep them in Card Savers.
I have already addressed these same concerns in an e-mail to Sean at SGC about 3 weeks ago asking how SGC plans to create an evironment where building an SGC-graded set makes sense to me. I don't expect a solution right now, just an explanation on how SGC plans to attain a solution. That Sean has not replied to these concerns tells me that either SGC doesn't care about these problems - or - SGC is not particularly interested in my business. I suppose it's possible that both could be true. When I'm ready to get serious about my 79 set, I would definitely be interested to listen to what GAI has to say on these concerns.
Mike
As yet, neither SGC nor GAI meet any of the two stipulations I require for building a graded set. I don't believe it's impossible for them to get to a point where it makes sense to build a set in the way I do it, they just aren't there yet - and may never be, who knows.
A bit more disturbing to me is when I asked SGC how they plan to meet these stipulations, I waited three nearly weeks got no reply. If they don't want my business, I'm cool with that. If they can't answer fundamental questions that any advanced collector should be asking them, then they don't deserve even a chance at my business. Based on my VERY limited conversations with people from GAI, I would be very surprised if they make the same mistake. But at the same time, they will be held to the same standard before I'd consider them for a set.
Mike
Please don't take offense to my remarks, as I'm not into collecting as an investment, except in the long-term sense that I don't want to pi$$ my money away on a card or set that won't at least break even. Many on this board have tens of thousands at stake, and (seems to me) are into a certain percentage return in the short-term. I look at it a little differently.
I think the questions for the moment are: 1) do you really believe that a graded 1978 or 1979 topps set will offer much return anytime in the next 2-4 years? 2) Do you believe SGC or GAI will be viable and flourishing in that time? Your post indicates that you are in tune to these issues.
I believe SGC is clearly here for the long haul, that there are multitudes of lurking SGC set builders out there, and that while there registry is puny looking at this time, it will grow and succeed. If you were to start a '79 set with SGC, by the time you complete it and admire it, the prices will approximate what PSA brings now for that issue, and that by the time you sell it, you will be happy with the return. The only sticking point I see is the huge amount of product out there for that issue, which is an issue no matter what grading company you choose.
I personally think it makes sense from a diversification standpoint alone to try a 1979 set with SGC, and the risk is not substantial. The overall appearance of the set will be nicer because of the holder and the grading consistency, and, granted this is speculation, I believe SGC will out perform PSA in the mid to long term (5-10 years).
Good luck, howver you choose to approach it. Todd
ebay id: nolemmings
When you are buying MINT 9's at substantially LESS that the cost of grading, the upside is huge, especially if you can find someone to just pay the grading fees for those particular items.
1. The set registry makes collecting 10x more fun.
2. Availability - try and build a 1965 from sgc or gai cards
3. Liquidity - they will bring more on resale and the demand is greater for them.
Things that I don't really like.
1. The holder - it's ugly at best.
2. Consistency - I believe that sgc and gai are probably just as good as psa if not better. I like the .5 point system that they offer also. I'm not saying psa is bad - just that the others are at least as good.
Psa has such a huge marketshare of the 1960's cards that it would be difficult to build a set in any other holder.
wayne
This is right on the money. Will GAI (who has the best holder AND half grades) become/be around in the next 5-10 years? I believe they will and if they came out with a registry, I would consider moving my cards to them.
I do not have nearly the graded collection as a lot of you have, but with my recent experience with PSA I have lost a little faith. I do not know if it is better on the other side, but I will be talking to GAI at the next show. Mary and Steve were good to me when they were at PSA.
Of which, who would you guys switch to if you had to - GAI, BVG or SGC?
Raw !
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
BVG =192 hits
GAI =531 hits
SGC =1390 hits
BGS =4634 hits
PSA ~ 12000
Groucho Marx
psa 1580
sgc 228
gai 13
bvg 42
bgs 28
Almost all of the gai cards are from one specific auction of 1960 leaf cards. As for the 60's there is no competition for psa other than a small amount from sgc.
Wayne
To answer your questions. . .
1 - No. . .I'm realistic in what resale value will be on the 78 and 79 sets in the next 2 to 5 years. The cost of the cards for those issues is low enough that any difference in price between comaines on cards of equally-graded cards SHOULD be relatively small. The difference is that right now, PSA9 commons tend to actually sell in the $7-$15 range. On the other hand, SGC96s are only a 50% bet to get a single bid if the minimum bid is set at $7.
2 - I do believe that SGC and GAI have the potential to be around in in the next 2-5 years. I'm not a fortune teller, so anything can happen. Both seem to have a sound business plan and an appropriate following with potential growth.
Perhaps I can explain better. . .
I think liquidity is crucial, but there's more to liquidity than resale value. Liquidity also means there's a market for trades as well. With my 75 set, I would say that about 40% of the cards came from trades. Almost always, these trades involve my sending cards I submit myself. This helps keep the costs down and rewards me for finding good raw examples and having a good eye in submitting them. Without people to trade with, my costs go up to a point that's almost prohibitive to me.
I think dealers' submissions are important because it provides an alternate source of cards that my trading partners may not have. And equalizes the supply and demand relationship a bit.
As I mentioned, neither SGC nor GAI can offer me either of my criteria at this point. My 78 set is my priority right now, so I'm taking something of a wait-and-see attitude on the 79s. To this point, I'm ready to exclude SGC on the basis of their lack of interest in answering or discussing my concerns. That can change, but to this point they haven't seemed interested in addressing how I can build an SGC set on my terms.
Mike
I too share your SGC comcerns, but I have taken the plunge and began to work on a 76 set with them as well. I believe they will be around for the long haul, I love the holder, have great customer service, and I think they are a little more consistent. I am looking at graded set building in the long run. Now, I can and have bought SGC 96 1976 topps commons for less than 5 bucks. My thinking is that in 30 years if I want to start selling off or even pass them on to my son the worst thing I am going to have is a mint card that is 46 years old. When I look at truely mint examples of 1957 Topps (graded or raw) they demand a significant premium. I know that our hobby will always be around and as I said the worst I will have by using SGC is a Mint card in a beautiful holder. I recently got back a submission of 76's from SGC and was quite pleased with the grades ( a 96 Bench and a 92 Brett) and have one I am waiting for at PSA.
I have and will continue to use both ( PSA more) and from my economic standpoint if I can buy a SGC 96 for 30-50% less than a PSA 9, I will buy all day, but then again this is not my business or full time profession, I am strictly a collector who buys cards to keep for many, many years.
Happy Holidays to everyone and hopefully I did not offend anybody with my views.
Bill
<< <i>My thinking is that in 30 years if I want to start selling off or even pass them on to my son the worst thing I am going to have is a mint card that is 46 years old. >>
Bill,
Actually, it would be even better. You'd have a 56 year old mint card!
Good point though. It reinforces the concept of buying the card not the holder (actually it suggests buying the holder as well!)
What if GAI or SGC had come first? Would we all be contemplating the future of the "newer" PSA grading service? Maybe it's just a case of being in the right place at the right time. Only time will tell.
JEB.
<< <i>
<< <i>My thinking is that in 30 years if I want to start selling off or even pass them on to my son the worst thing I am going to have is a mint card that is 46 years old. >>
Bill,
Actually, it would be even better. You'd have a 56 year old mint card!
JEB. >>
Well now we all know that I was not a math major in college!!!!
In all of these posts for anti/pro SGC, BVG, GAI for the past year plus I have been on this board, I have not heard that statement. That is an excellent point.
Did GAI take some of the top PSA graders with them? Have any defected since? I know that at shows, more and more dealers have them.
GREAT holder and apparently very consistent grading. Take that along with the bad taste I have in my mouth from 82 year old American Caramel
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
Neil,
I feel your pain and I may say for one that they are covering their backside...
I'm not sure if gai is the answer but the holder is awesome and the image
is always perfect and clean...
Mantlefan,
I don't see what your point is for psa has thousand of 9's with stains and
sometimes a corner touch to boot....In my opinion for what you paid thats
a awesome card for I missed the auction or I'd be the proud owner...Why
don't you post the others you won...
Matt
SCD has vouchers in their magazines and SGC has those annoying email spams. PSA has their many popups on this website. Just wondering whether GAI is trying to be competitive.
Here's a GAI card, on the right, that I got off eBay graded an 8.
When I got it, I noticed the discoloration on the cheek, but, hoping for the best, broke it out anyway.
The spot turned out to be a fairly bad surface flaw, but once again, hoping for the best,
submitted it to PSA, but it came back a 5. Now it's in my "sell raw" pile.
Generally have had decent luck with GAI cross-overs,
but they do seem a little too "eager to please" sometimes when grading cards
for the dealers that they're trying to woo.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
<< <i>1. The holder - it's ugly at best. >>
Personally, for the B&W Play Ball set that I collect, I find the GAI holder to be disgusting. I don't like a "shiny-new modern" holder, encasing a 60+ year old B&W card. Repulsive. I think the plain PSA holder is the best, and allows the card to be the focal point and not the holder. However, I do like the small label on the top of the GAI case, so when storing them, it would be easy to retrieve a particular card.
What is the point of "first graded" and "first issue"? Does anybody really care?
Currently collecting.....your guess is as good as mine.
Matt
That's the only GAI card I own. Certainly it's the last! I've been collecting PSA cards for 6 years, and I've yet to see very many of the "thousands of 9's with stains..." that you allude to. Nevertheless, this is a "first graded" GAI Mint 9 which was botched. A "1" of "1" and they can't get it right. As for the price, if I bust this card out it comes back a PSA 8 st, which is worth about 10 bucks. Real bargain. $152 for a PSA 8 st. If you'd like to be the "proud owner", send me a check and this turkey's yours. GAI = Go Away!
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
<< <i>What if GAI or SGC had come first? Would we all be contemplating the future of the "newer" PSA grading service? Maybe it's just a case of being in the right place at the right time. Only time will tell.
In all of these posts for anti/pro SGC, BVG, GAI for the past year plus I have been on this board, I have not heard that statement. That is an excellent point.
Did GAI take some of the top PSA graders with them? Have any defected since? I know that at shows, more and more dealers have them.
GREAT holder and apparently very consistent grading. Take that along with the bad taste I have in my mouth from 82 year old American Caramel
1420:
Virtualized card's comment was an excellent point. I am not sure how the rest of your post follows that logic, though. I take his point to mean that PSA has such a head start that no one else has much of a chance of succeeding. GAI has been around only a year now, but even with lots of dealer support, a better holder, and what people seem to be saying is excellent grading, they have hardly made a dent in PSA. They are a blip on the screen. Could they turn it around? Possibly, but it seems unlikely. Once a company has a market share that gives them a huge competitive advantage, it is almost impossible to break in. The set registry was like the icing on the cake for them, further solidifying their lead. A possible breakthrough place would be new cards, I suppose, and that is where I would focus if I was trying to compete w/ PSA.
I can give you four example off the top of my head where market share has beaten better product, but there are lots more. 1) Ever notice that your keyboard has the letter keys all mixed up? (QWERTY system) Thsi is an inferior system to ABCDE system, but it was originally started so that the commonly used keys wouldn't be next to each other and and have the "hammers" stick when they were struck simultaneously on the old typewriters. Even though studies have shown that typists can type faster on a ABCDE system, it will never happen do to the huge "crossover cost of converting. 2) Metric vs English system of weights and measurements Obvious case of inertia over simplicity. 3) Macintosh vs DOS 4) Sony betamax vs. VHS
So PSA's head start gives them a huge advantage which they can continue to exploit, and barring any major screwups, can continue to beat back the competition. Why would anyone logically send cards they plan to sell to any other company when they will get more money for PSA cards?
As for your cards, if you are grading them to keep for years, it really doesn't matter, because selling them is not a concern. If you are grading to sell at some point, though, then it is very likely that you will do better with PSA.
Hey, I'm not saying that this'll happen with everyone, but it certainly gave me a better feeling that I wouldn't be stuck with a lousy submission. I wish PSA would have done this at times in the past, though I have to say I'm very impressed with PSA's current service as well (especially compared to times past).
<< <i>Hey, I'm not saying that this'll happen with everyone >>
Crazysc,
It's good to see that they take care of some people. I'm sure some of the dealers that
bought in to them so quickly from the time of their start-up could share similar experiences
as well.
aconte
I took it as If GAI had come first, then we would be on the GAI Registry Fourum right now posting to and reading the thread "PSA Grading".
Buckwheat - I see your analogies, but is GAI that much of an inferior product? In terms of market share they are, but what about people crossing over to GAI with PSA slabbed cards that are not on this thread? It happens and from what I have been hearing, the blip known as GAI is getting a little bigger each month. There could be a time when GAI really starts gathering momentum and more collectors and dealers start using them.
Would the PSA pop report become smaller? If that happened ...