Good things come to those who wait
Flying56eagle
Posts: 208
Ok short story on this coin..
I bought it from the collection I was selling awhile back for $40.00 Cause it looked like it had a glaz of some sort , cleaned, diped, or something did not look right. but I gave it a chance..
I sent it to Pcgs (Baged ) cleaned..
sent it off to Ngc (Baged) cleaned..
then I sent it to the spooly man, so he could work his magic.
I must say spooly you did a great job on it to get it were you got it.. Thank you..
I then sent it back to Ngc (Baged) *Stained rev.**
So I sat on her for about 8 months. Then I decided to send ot in at the balt coin show to (NCS)
And have them do some conservation work to it and it work..
I have about
$40 for the coin
$45 for baged submisions
$10 for the conservation work
$28 for the new home SLABED BY NGC MS60
$123 TOTAL
For a 1 of 17 graded ms60
and a coin worth about $650-$850
so remember
Good things come to those who wait..
PS:: Again thank you spooly
I bought it from the collection I was selling awhile back for $40.00 Cause it looked like it had a glaz of some sort , cleaned, diped, or something did not look right. but I gave it a chance..
I sent it to Pcgs (Baged ) cleaned..
sent it off to Ngc (Baged) cleaned..
then I sent it to the spooly man, so he could work his magic.
I must say spooly you did a great job on it to get it were you got it.. Thank you..
I then sent it back to Ngc (Baged) *Stained rev.**
So I sat on her for about 8 months. Then I decided to send ot in at the balt coin show to (NCS)
And have them do some conservation work to it and it work..
I have about
$40 for the coin
$45 for baged submisions
$10 for the conservation work
$28 for the new home SLABED BY NGC MS60
$123 TOTAL
For a 1 of 17 graded ms60
and a coin worth about $650-$850
so remember
Good things come to those who wait..
PS:: Again thank you spooly
0
Comments
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
Dang man, you are still alive. Been waiting for your rolly polley self to pull up my driveway. Happy Holidays to you and yours. (pssss my phone #s are still the same....LOL )
Bulldog
PS....Spoolster should get a pretty nice X-mas sumpin or tother from ya..LOL
No good deed will go unpunished.
Free Money Search
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
You acted as a dealer in a coin transaction where you liquidated the contents of a collection for someone less knowledgable and then bought an 1855-O with arrows half for just over F12 (just under VF20) dealer bid from this collection. You could obviously tell that it was quite a bit better than an F/VF coin even if it had some sort of glaze on it, heck, even if it bumped up to AU50 it was still a $200+ coin. The coin is then conserved and comes back MS60 and you value it at $650-$850 and everyone who has posted before me congratulates you?
So, my conundrum is this; why is it that it is okay for a Board member to act as a dealer or agent for someone less knowledgable and to buy a classic coin for hundreds less than it is actually worth while I am fairly comfortable in writing that had someone related this same story but said the coin was sold to a dealer instead of a Board member that the dealer would be vilified. Is there some inconsistency here?
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>For the record... I am not a Coin Doctor! >>
Now where have we heard a similar line. I did not have ...
Scott M
Everything is linear if plotted log-log with a fat magic marker
Ron said.... "$40.00 Cause it looked like it had a glaze of some sort , cleaned, diped, or something did not look right."
Do you pay retail for damaged/cleaned coins? Isn't this why we tell everybody not to clean coins.... because it makes it them worthless?
Now you know that.... "glaze(lacquer)cleaned, diped...something didn't look right".... coins are worth a fraction of the price of a good coin.
I am opinion this coin looked bad..... damaged big time..... it was a piece of junk worth maybe $40.00 tops.
The real story here is modern conservation methods saved a damage coin... removed Lacquer without damaging the surface of the coin and saved it!
I would have tossed this coin in the junk box and been done with it.
Ron spent the time and money trying to save this coin. Who in there right mind would spend a year trying to save a lacquered coin? Ron did a good thing in my opinion.
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
Think about it, how many times do we read threads about how horrible dealers are because they were able to obtain coins at far below market value from those members of the general public they are working with? How badly do you think a dealer would get mauled if he/she stated that this coin was bought at this price and what it really needed was an NCS treatment to make it worth 15-20 times more than what it was purchased at? In other words, is there a double standard in play here? If so, why is that?
As for what Flying56eagle knew or didn't know, I will state that I have a hard time believing that the coin was truly that bad when it was purchased. Why do I say this? Well, Flying56eagle admits that he sent the coin in for certification twice before attempting any rehabilitation of the coin. So, why do I think that that point is important? It tells me that if Flying56eagle thought the coin would be slabbed by either PCGS or NGC without any work being done to the coin that the coin could not have looked that bad. Therefore, if the coin looked good enough to submit to PCGS or NGC then it no doubt looked good enough to pay more than F/VF money to the person Flying56eagle was representing. That is a tough thing to wiggle out of.
No doubt Flying56eagle was very patient with the coin and most likely it is a positive change for the coin. However, doing right by the coin is not the same as doing right by the person who puts their trust in you when you represent them.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
This just really stinks!!!!!!
I see your point and I agree were it NOT FE56, he probably would have gotten flamed. I got lost following the conservation process and missed the correlation of how he acquired it. I also agree that I can see the transaction as "inappropriate" IF he thought that in the end it would be a substantially more valuable coin.
Merz2
Your edification of this acquisition "eases" or somewhat mitigates the negative perception one could draw from this experience IF FE56 did not buy this coin at $40 thinking he could substantially raise the value of the coin OR accepted it for "less than adequate compensation" under the premise that it may be of value but won't exceed the actual value of his work AS LONG AS HE WAS UPFRONT about it.
I'm kinda' on the fence because I can't know what the intent was; it could have been innocent happenstance. In that case, it could be a lesson for consideration in future transactions. If it was intentional, well, then it is just crappy.
BTW the coin is AU-58 cleaned IMHO.
Joe.
If the removal of the lacquer could be compared to the crackout of a slab, or a mylar 2x2, applied for protection for the long haul, what harm was done to the surface?
As for the ethical dilemma, I think the greater good was done by the one who went to the effort(s) to conserve and curate.
TomB's point is a different one entirely, and its human nature to want to malign the dealer who would use his knowledge and experience to his advantage.
Even predators have to eat, pay the rent and utilities. Doesn't make them evil, does it?
These people (the owners of the hoard he was dispensing) have since disappeared off the face of the earth (last I heard) leaving Ron with probably several thousand dollars worth of various coins which he refuses to do anything with. They have left him no working phone number, forwarding address, or anything!
There probably aren't too many people that would hang onto stuff nearly a year while trying to find the owners.
How is your search for them going Ron?
A festering evil who sticks to copper. If you have coins of any kind that need conserving, the best route is NCS.
was up front with them about their collection, this particular coin, and the details of how
he would be compensated for this work, I have no problem with what he did.
It isn't as if he saw one particular coin that he thought he could turn over,
take advantage of the seller's ignorance & make $ on the coin.
The only thing that bothers me about this saga is all of the 'work' which was done on
the coin to get it into its current holder. While I can't actually see the coin, the color
does not look right to me. More importantly, it shows ONCE AGAIN that just because a
coin get holdered by one of the 'majors,' it is NOT a problem-free coin. I must emphasize
this because too many people buy by "the numbers." I don't know how many times I've
called various auction houses and the person on the other end of the phone was happy to
speak with me because I was interested in the coin, and not just the number on the slab.
We all decide what is acceptable re 'work' on a coin. While I prefer original surfaces, I'll
accept a dipped coin where some suface residue was merely removed from a coin.
However, a dipped out coin, with its lack of cartwheel luster and numerous microscopic
scratches where the fields join the devices is not acceptable to me.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
That said I'm bothered that this coin, that was not just cleaned but coated in some type of material, could miraculously be conserved and be transformed into a mint state coin deserving life in an NGC slab.
Is MS-60 a code for "we slabbed it but it's a suspect coin", something like ANACS net grading without the details disclosed?
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
I have to agree with TomB....... submitting the 2 times was a little crazy in my opinion. When I saw the coin... I knew it would never grade/slab. I wouldn't have wasted my money in grading fees. But then again I don't do damage coins. I would have never given this coin a second look.
Removing lacquer off coins.... wow.... that is new one on me. NCS must have some great chemists!
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
glad to hear that they finally hooked up!
Now if we could get Ron to show himself on here a bit more!!!!
i mean there is room for improvement on how this was handled it could have been handled better in my opinion
i mean that is okie we are all human just do better next time!
we only learn from our mistakes
and i can understand the situation myself
but hopefully in the future
a lesson learned and corrected for the better and then not so much a guilty conscience
sincerely michael
I think what happened here, is that Ron gave us a blow by blow account, of how he rescued and conserved a coin that was destined for 2X2 and the back of a collectors book. This situation has been substatntiated and substained by another stand up board member, Spooly.
Some members of this board have treated this thread very harshly in my opinion, and condemned another fine member of the board. How unfortunate in my opinion.
If condemnation is forthcomming, it should be for the professional graders that did not detect the cleaning/conservation efforts. Not Ron.
I think that Ron should be applauded for his efforts, honesty and ability as a young collector to make this happen, as well as have the balz to share it with us. I believe that Ron did a service to the coin and to the board, by posting the details.
Last but not least, Ron did not pay an unsuspecting seller $40 for a coin and walk away with a condo on the Delaware shores. He had modest return for a great effort.
Thank you Ron and Spooly for this story of fact!
Bulldog
No good deed will go unpunished.
Free Money Search
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>do you have the balls >>
Shucks! Another thread that leaves me out!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
As one of those Members who congratulated Flying56eagle early on in the thread, I would like to say that my congratulations for hard work, long patience and perserverance would have been attributed to a Member whether he/she was a collector or a dealer. He put forth the effort and hard work and he was justifiably compensated for it.
You seem to feel there is some bias here on this Forum against dealers, such as yourself?
Take it with a grain of salt. A little spiked eggnog might help, as well.
Lucy- Great line! You carry other attributes. Your contributions are always welcome here.
By your request I am replying. I have stated "MY OPINION" as clearly as I chose to in my original post. As my original post was "MY OPINION", I do not feel that I need to respond or turn this into another personal thread that is only going to be flamable in nature and personal in content. Nor, do I feel a need to present a public review of my anatomy, to you or anyone else.
<"I'll respond to this post again because I have received more than one private message from other Board members who have defended Flying56eagle and his actions because they seem to believe that I am attacking him."> I do believe that these are your words. Not mine.
<"As for what Flying56eagle knew or didn't know, I will state that I have a hard time believing that the coin was truly that bad when itwas purchased."> Spooly says "I am opinion this coin looked bad..... damaged big time..... it was a piece of junk worth maybe $40.00 tops. " MERZ2 says "Way to go Ron.I was there when you sent it and am very happy for you!!!!!!!! ". I did not see this coin before it was curated, but these two esteemed board members did. What did it look like when you saw it before it was curated ,Tom?
Matter of error and omissions, Tom. <"Well, Flying56eagle admits that he sent the coin in for certification twice before attempting any rehabilitation of the coin." Actually it was 3 Three submissions prior to the curation . FE56<" sent it to Pcgs (Baged ) cleaned", "
sent it off to Ngc (Baged) cleaned", "I then sent it back to Ngc (Baged) *Stained rev.**" I am counting 3 submissions here with a stop at Spooly's once after the 2nd submission and before the 3rd submission.
Well Tom, I guess it is all what ones opinion is and if or not a person wants to go through life defending his or her opinions. I do not. But out of respect to you and your perceived standing on this board, and in the coin world, I don't mind.
I do not belong to any elitest coin group, I am not concerned about my status on this board, and I could care less about the hierarchy of the coin world ( although my guess, some of us have reached Maslows theory of "Self Actualization") nor do I consider myself much more than an honest guy, that will come to freinds aid, when I feel that he is being publicly riduculed and maligned without cause.
Tom, I have come to respect many of your threads over the years, as you can usually back them up with fact. Opinions are not always based on fact, but on general knowledge of the person or subject matter. Well, I stand by my opinion of Ron, based on my dealings with him in the past, social times spent together and general conduct that I have witnessed. My opinion of your posts, are that they are negative, inflamatory and just some more grand standing that goes on in here from time to time. Hey it is your opinion, not mine. You called me out, so here I am.
Tom, it does not take balls to reply to you. Just a sense of fairness to another board member and a desire of mine, to never let a friend burn in a fire that he did not set.
I am sure that my opinion of you, and your opnion of me have not changed. So be it. In the spirit of the Holidays, have a Happy!
Bulldog
No good deed will go unpunished.
Free Money Search
First let me say I haven't seen the coin in question but in general I don't think I've seen an MS-60 I've liked. Remember, MS-60 isn't usually a step up from AU-55 or 58. I think the $650 ~ $850 is a very optimistic estimate of value. Here are some Heritage Prices Realized on coins close in grade:
NGC MS-62 $661
ANACS MS-61 $575
ANACS AU-58 $282
I think a more accurate estimate might be $350 ~ $450 for this coin (even this might be a little optimistic). I'm not saying this to steal F56E's thunder but to provide a more realistic idea of the potential profit.
Spooly said the coin was not harshly clean (his judgement call) but both PCGS and NGC body bagged the coin as having been cleaned. Spooly does some work on it and it gets bagged again as stained. The coin was in bad enough condition to get body bagged even after an honest attempt on Spooly's part to help the coin. F56E says he thought the price he paid for the coin was reasonable "cause it looked like it had a glaz of some sort , cleaned, diped, or something did not look right but I gave it a chance." In hindsight it was a long shot (two conservation efforts and four submissions) and I wonder how many of us would have taken that chance (I'm too conservative so I probably would not). Since I can't read minds I'll have to conclude that F56E didn't look at buying this coin as a sure shot at making a quick buck at the expense of the Estate.
I do have a problem with NGC slabbing the coin MS after body bagging it twice. How does a coin go from cleaned to stained to an NGC Mint State holder? I think it's intellectually dishonest on the part of NCS/NGC to put this coin in an MS holder.
I'm not condemning the conservation efforts but I have a problem with hidding those efforts behind an MS designation on the holder. Given the stated the condition of the coin at the start my guess is a knowledgable collector could identify the fact that the coin was conserved. But what about the not so knowledgable collector?
I have no problems with you or anyone else having an opinion, and, certainly, they don't have to agree with mine. They're opinions, and that's cool. I'll go through your post and try to write in as clear a manner as possible so that there can be little chance of having something misconstrued.
To start, I only wrote about a portion of your anatomy because you had previously written that F56E had the "balz" to share his experience with us. If you read and remember my writing style you will note that I typically do not write things like "do you have the balls", however, I thought I would do so in this case since I was directly addressing you and the post where you had used the term. That's where that came from. It wasn't written in anger or as a personal afront, I was just using a word that you had used.
I'll stand by the quote of mine that you used
<< <i>As for what Flying56eagle knew or didn't know, I will state that I have a hard time believing that the coin was truly that bad when it was purchased. >>
because people typically do not throw their money away by submitting problem coins to PCGS and NGC. To me, the act of twice submitting the coin speaks volumes to how the coin must have looked to F56E. Of course, I have never seen the coin in person and never claimed that I had, but actions speak mighty loud and the actions said that this coin was submitted twice before any conservation. If you have read the entire thread you will note that even the esteemed Spooly agrees with my puzzlement on the submission issue when he wrote
<< <i>I have to agree with TomB....... submitting the 2 times was a little crazy in my opinion. When I saw the coin... I knew it would never grade/slab. I wouldn't have wasted my money in grading fees. But then again I don't do damage coins. I would have never given this coin a second look. >>
of course, Spooly is not agreeing with the notion that the coin might not have been that bad. In fact, Spooly is saying the coin looked downright nasty to him. However, Spooly is agreeing with the notion that it is difficult to understand how a problem coin would be submitted twice. Someone reading a statement by F56E that the coin was submitted twice prior to any conservation attempt could logically think that F56E thought the coin was not a problem coin, otherwise, why waste the submission fees? Wasting the submission fees does not make sense. The quote you use by the esteemed merz2 in the same paragraph leaves me questioning why it was incorporated since I don't see its usefullness in the discussion.
You then quote me again with
<< <i>Well, Flying56eagle admits that he sent the coin in for certification twice before attempting any rehabilitation of the coin. >>
and somehow consider this an error or omission. In truth, I am at a loss as to how a careful reading of the thread could generate that statement. After all, F56E wrote in his only post
<< <i>then I sent it to the spooly man, so he could work his magic. I must say spooly you did a great job on it to get it were you got it. >>
and this means to me that the esteemed Spooly did some rehabilitation of the coin. Even Spooly admits this with
<< <i>I just tried to remove spots/stains, the best I could do was 'lighten" the spots without damaging the coins surfaces. Glad NCS can handle these really tough coins. >>
and you note the esteemed Spooly stop-over also but do not comment on the purpose of the stop-over. Did you think the esteemed Spooly was using it to flip a coin to determine kickoffs at local high school football games? Of course not, the esteemed Spooly was attempting rehabilitation of the coin. I think your confusion arises because you think "any rehabilitation of the coin" is equivalent to "NCS rehabilitation of the coin" and these two statements are not the same and it was not written to be the same.
Please, you do not have to give an answer out of
<< <i>respect to you and your perceived standing on this board >>
since I, in no way, was calling you out because of my "respect" or "perceived standing". Rather, I called you out because of your statement
<< <i>Some members of this board have treated this thread very harshly in my opinion, and condemned another fine member of the board. How unfortunate in my opinion. >>
and I would have to surmise that I have been the person to question things the most in this thread and was the first to question anything. Therefore, I thought that you might be refering to me, and, if so, I wanted to explain the intent of the posts to you but did not want to insinuate myself into your statement if I did not belong there.
In my opinion, this part of your post is what this is all about for you
<< <i>I do not belong to any elitest coin group, I am not concerned about my status on this board, and I could care less about the hierarchy of the coin world ( although my guess, some of us have reached Maslows theory of "Self Actualization") nor do I consider myself much more than an honest guy, that will come to freinds aid, when I feel that he is being publicly riduculed and maligned without cause. >>
and I will address the opening of it first. The "elitist coin group", "status on this board" and "hierarchy of the coin world" are completely out of left field as far as I am concerned. As far as I knew, none of this was being debated by anyone here and, to take it a step farther, I don't know that I have ever debated, written or infered these things about anyone. Just to clear this up for me, am I wrong in my last statments? If so, please tell me where or give me a clue as to how so that I might be able to figure them out. I have never even heard of "Maslows theory" so I won't even attempt to go there. However, the part about you being an honest guy who will come to a friend's aid when you believe they are under attack, especially without cause is exactly what I thought this was about for you. To begin with, I do believe that you are an honest guy who will come to a friend's aid when needed and will go the extra mile for that person. Heck, I believe you would go the extra mile for people you don't even know or don't even necessarily care much about. I have no qualms with that, I have never thought that you were anything but a good person and one that would be good to have as a friend. This being the case, I would like to point out that I wasn't attacking F56E in my first post and that my subsequent post was as a Devil's Advocate. If you read my first post and can imagine that you don't know F56E, can't you see how the Board would likely have acted if someone had related this story as though a dealer had lived it instead of F56E? That was my point in my first post. Imagine someone posting this as a thread-
"I was in a coin shop and heard the dealer telling someone "I bought this coin from someone for $40 and had two bag submissions before I gave it to a friend who worked on it in his back room, then I had it bagged again and sat on it eight months before sending it to NCS for conservation and now it's worth $650-$850".
I would bet that members of this Board would be howling about that dealer! It didn't happen that way, though, and I think it had to do with the fact that it was F56E who had the experience. Obviously, we did not know the entire history of F56E with this coin, but neither would we know the entire history of some dealer with some fictional and similar coin. So, I was not berating F56E at all, I was questioning out loud what would have happened in the other scenario and wondering out loud if there was some sort of double standard. I invite you to read the post all you want and tell me if you read something else in it.
My second post was written because I had received private messages that thought I was perhaps attacking F56E so I addressed this in the thread for all to see. I posted to re-state that I was not attacking F56E and that I thought the reactions of the Board might be quite different had this story been related about a fictional dealer. That is the entire subject matter of the first two paragraphs. The third paragraph was about how I saw F56E's actions as being slightly at odds with how badly the coin was portrayed by the esteemed Spooly and esteemed merz2. It talks about the puzzling two submissions of this apparently previously-nasty coin and how I think that that is inconsistent with how bad the coin could have looked. I don't claim to have seen the coin and never did claim to have seen the coin and, if I had, I would not have had to write about this apparent inconsistency since I would have already known what it looked like.
You then go on to praise F56E as a person and I have no reason to argue this. You include
<< <i>My opinion of your posts, are that they are negative, inflamatory and just some more grand standing that goes on in here from time to time. Hey it is your opinion, not mine. You called me out, so here I am. >>
which can only mean to me that you completely misinterpreted what I was writing about. Again, this could be because I did not make it painfully clear from each post that I was really writing about the Board's reaction to this thread or it could be because you are friends with F56E and you were reading the posts superficially because you were angry or agitated that someone would, in your mind, attack your friend without cause. I try not to post in a negative tone, however, I try to also be honest in my dealings with people regardless of if I am speaking with them or writing on this Board. I do not write anything on this Board that I would not hesitate to say to someone's face in person and this thread is absolutely no exception. I also do not think I was being inflammatory as this was an honest question regarding how the Board might react if the thread author were a dealer or if the thread was about over-hearing a dealer's conversation. Lastly, I don't think I grand-stand often, point it out to me so I can see it. This statement
<< <i>Tom, it does not take balls to reply to you. Just a sense of fairness to another board member and a desire of mine, to never let a friend burn in a fire that he did not set. >>
just reiterates what I have just addressed. I was not attacking F56E, read this again with some thicker skin.
Feel free to post a response to the thread or to PM me over the issue if you are unclear and/or if you do not feel the need to post publicly again.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
My problem with the MS grade is that both PCGS and NGC bagged the coin for cleaning. How did they make that determination? Usually it's based on hairlines, scratch marks, impaired luster (a bad dip), etc. You can't conserve away hairlines, scratches from abrasive rubbing or restore impaired mint luster (well maybe our resident Ph.d chemist can
The answer to this may be in the ANA grading guide description of an MS-60 coin:
"MS-60. Unattractive, dull or washed out mint luster may mark this coin."
It goes on to talk about heavy contact marks or hairlines, scuff marks and eye appeal is very poor.
I'd be interested in hearing F56E's opinion regarding the eye appeal of the coin.
Mr Tomb
I see your point and agree with you in some point..
A dealer (Which I am Not) is in the coin buisness to make a profit. That is fair, some one has to do it...
The way I received this deal (not many would believe) was purely by chance.
and one of the best decisions I have ever made
First I must add some clarification to the post ..
I only purchased the coin after the first body bag...
As per the customers request the did not want to spend any extra $ on second submission's, so the only time I would purchase a coin from them during the sell would only be after a submission was completed, (baged or graded) then I was able to have first shot at any coin for 10% below the currant red book price of any coin, I also sold alot of coins from this collection to board members for the same deal.
As alot of some of the old members will recall, I was very much opposed to the curating of a coin, and believed that any alteration to a coin was considered (cleaning).....
The reason It took so long for the work and the finale decision to have the coin curated,
Is I spent about 6 monts reading,watching videos,and viewing documents of finished work on museum curating.. And with some of the new viewing tools I now have,That I didn't have when I purchased the said piece, I can now look at a coin under 100X in 3D and you could see that what ever it was on the coin had a layer to it..
Remember
To clean a coin you MUST touch it one way or another, Curating is done by never touching the item, (if it is done right) only lifting agents,chemicals are used to remove (build ups on that item)also when you DIP A COIN You Remove a layer of the coin each time you dip,,,
I am no curator or a chemist, And can not clearly describe to you the process,
of curating a coin..
"But I will say this, knowing what I know now about curating, I believe in the prosess And look forward to having some more work done..
PS::I want to take the time to thank all that have went to bat for me. And believe in me. You all know who you are... It means alot to me.
What is you opinion of the eye appeal of the coin (luster, scratches, hairlines, etc.)? The full description of an MS-60 in the ANA grading guide (a gave a partial description above) is pretty dismal.
"Environmental Damage" to "Stained" to "graded" makes sense.
N-7 Environmental Damage - Corrosion, coating (lacquer)
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
Could be. I'm interested to hear what F56E has to say about the overall appearance of the coin. The ANA description including "eye appeal is poor" leaves much to be desired.
Handshake!
Bulldog
No good deed will go unpunished.
Free Money Search
First, an MS60 coin is certainly a coin with problems, be they dings and marks or fine hairlines.
Second, all grades are essentially ``net'' grades. A PCGS PF69 is really a perfect coin that got net graded due to politics...
Third, a coin can have multiple problems (or so it seems to the graders), but they can only choose one to identify for BB purposes.
Fourth, a problem coin can be difficult for a grader to precisely specify the problem in the few seconds allotted.
Fifth, NCS is better suited (than the graders) to properly identify the nature of the problem.
Sixth, after conservation, the coin's net grade may have been bumped up and that the signs of cleaning -- if it actually was cleaned -- is less severe and the coin is now slabbable.
Seventh, all problem coins are a judgement call in terms of whether they get slabbed w/ no designated ``net'' grade.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
No problem, buddy!
TomB
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
appearance...
If the coin is graded MS60 by the grading service,it is deemed to be "strictly uncirculated" or has no wear...does it matter what was done to it to improve its appearance?...wear itself cannot be undone...none of the grading services would likely be able to tell whether a coin is "strictly uncirculated" if it has laquer or some other sufficiently thick substance coating it...remove the coating and they will be able to tell the amount of or lack of wear...
This coin appears to me to be "strictly uncirculated"...it also appears to me that it was cleaned without knowing a thing about how it appeared prior to its cleaning(s)...i've been reading that this particular coin was expertly cleaned...as a buyer,i really don't care how much the dealer paid...i decide whether i would want this cleaned MS60 1855-0 half in my collection at it's price as offered...i might try to negotiate for a lower price because,after all,it has been cleaned...
This is not a coin for the newbie or unexperienced collector to get involved with...if i owned this coin in its present not-at-all-unnatractive holdered state i wouldn't want to sell it to a newbie...
Put some rainbow tones on this coin and what would it go for?...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
the customer wanted me to just keep the coin, as it was not worth anything...
The reason I use $40 as a purchase price is there was a bill which the cust. owed $40 and told them I would just use the coin as payment on that bill...
This collection has over 137,000 pieces. More key date coins than most dealers will see in a life time.
And when I say key dates I don't mean one,I mean he had items like (9) 1877 indian head cents (9) 1909svdb and so on and so on..
a couple of the coin's in this collection was baged counterfit. They let me keep those coins also,
1856 $1 princess, 1909svdb lincoln, .
anyway was I wrong in not paying for the counterfit?
I keeped them for my learning library, *I have used them on this board for*(Guess the grade)
and sofar NOT ONE person has guessed it to be counterfit. It is that good, At the 2000 bailt coin show the ANACS Main grader,and counterfit detector (exp) Told me "it was one of the best he had ever seen"
Pretty much My opinion on this coin
Is what you see, the obv I feel maks the ms60. Seams as a week strike
but there is no wear, the reverse I feel is a strong 62 maybe a 63 just a great strike.
Is all I can say about the eye appeal is that the obv does have a very small amount of luster, but does have some, like I said a week strick towards the top of the coin the shield is in strong strike condition. all the line are therein the shield with no breaks at all. The Rev still has no luster at all, but very shiny on the high points. The strick (WOW) The olive leaves look like you could take them off the coin and replant them, The eagles talen and wings look as if he could take flight at anytime, and the eagles shield looks so strong and detailed, It look as if it could stop a 44 calibur bullet....
Like I said,
When they said I could have the coin There was somthing about it that I just needed to find out what it was. That is why all the submissions, All the Time spent on it. That is what the collectors family liked in me I guess, There father collected for 67 years and when the dealers came around (some of his friends) after his passing the wanted to buy his collection for penny's on the dollar, The Family new what there fathers collection was worth, Thay just wanted a collector to help sell his collection to the small collector, Not go to a dealer.
I now have been collecting for about 5 years and read for 2 years countless books on collecting and conterfit dectection, and all other fields buying selling.. Just learning before I bought my frist coin..so I guess it would be fair to say I have been in it for 7 years?
In that short time when you have looked at as many coins as I have , My gradeing skills, and genaral knowledge, has went from a scale of 2 to 8.5 I would say.
I have been published already on the true meaning of coin collecting in coin world, And hope to have a new book out in a couple of years on counterfit detecting. My Library is now up to over 250+ of old and new counterfited coins
As In my Sig. at and the end of each post and from the time I started collection I always say "Take great pride in what you buy sell or trade" I DO...
Each of them took considerable time and care in addressing the points/issues raised by the other. And, they did so, while speaking their minds in a straight forward and honest fashion. They could have flamed or ignored each other. That would have been much easier. Instead, through their efforts, the thread became much more informative and interesting.
My thanks also goes to others who posted here. Rather than taking sides and attacking, posters added considerable information and insight to the thread.
Good things do come to those who wait
I appreciate your efforts to have the coin restored to the best possible condition without resorting to artificial enhancements. I do echo the comments of those that said this coin is not for the novice collector. My concern with NGC's "net grading" of the coin (unlike ANACS net grading) is that it's left to the collector to know and understand the reasons for the net grade (although I'm not absolving the collector of his responsibility to educate himself). For the experienced collector the lack of luster and other physical evidence is there to indicate the coin has been "worked on." The experienced collector can factor that into his buying decisions and his assessment of value.
On the other hand the novice or newbie collector sees the coin in an NGC holder (one of the top two grading services) labeled MS-60, checks a price guide and based on that information alone determines that the retail price is X number of dollars without understand the problems that resulted in the net grading (I also have issues with pricing MS-60 coins higher that AU-55/58's but that another story
Anyway, that's for sharing your experience.