is this $10 a fake?- NGC opinion is in

darktone

I got this in the mail yesterday and at first I thought it to be a late die state coin but after a closer look and talking to a couple forumn members I suspect this coin is a counterfeit. What are your thoughts from the pictures? I will post a few close up pictures a little later. Thanks mike

darktone

Here are some close up pictures.

picture 1

picture 2

picture 3

picture 4

picture 5

picture 6

DesertLizard

Looks OK by the scans. Stars 12 /13 look flat{strike bad}, otherwise no problem.

MrKelso

Do you have a scale you can weight it on? It looks ok from the scans. The surface texture does seem a bit ruff.

darktone

I used to have a couple of small scales but I took them to use at work in the garage one day and I think they lasted about a week before they were both broken. My plan is to pick up a new one when doing my Christmas shopping. mike

66Tbird

I'm certainly no expert, yet if I saw it raw,,,,,, well, I'll just say there was something in each of your pics. #5,,, the raised bump in the field was the one that did it for me. Then the undefined rim and denticals, consistantly pitted surfaces. If I'm wrong PLEASE tell me why

dorkkarl

appears genuine, but maybe a sea-salvage coin(?)

K S

relayer

There are a lot of fake gold coins - but some are even made of gold. I've gotten my Not Genuine results on gold coins.

I would say that's real, but you should wait for somebody who knows what they are talking about has to say.

darktone

anymore thoughts on this one.

MrKelso

I looked at a few books. I did find a ref to smaller s there were Minor positional Vars, other then that all the other comments i found say rare in UNC. I have one other book to look at if my brother ever brings it back to me today.

Mike31415

Hi Mike, the 1907-s $10 is counterfeit. The granular surfaces gives this coin away. I have handled a few high end S mint $10's recently and they usually have smooth lustrous surfaces. If the coin was real it looks like it would grade at least 63 and worth a few thousand bucks. I would return it if possible.

Mike

BillJones

Yea, I didn't really want to say anything because people don't like to read bad news, but the obverse on the big picture looked suspect, and the granular surfaces and chucks of metal on the surface in the close up photos close the deal.

I don't like the coin; I think it's bad.

darktone

Thanks guy's I know it would be nice if it is real but I have pretty much accepted the fact it is a fake. By the way I had it weighed today and it came in at 16.8 grams. mike

MrKelso

<< <i>Thanks guy's I know it would be nice if it is real but I have pretty much accepted the fact it is a fake. By the way I had it weighed today and it came in at 16.8 grams. mike >>



The weight sometimes can give away a fake this one should weight in at 16.718 grams according to a few sources but the source i have opened in front of me now is Red Book. Gee thats to bad
It certainly is a pretty fake. Hope all goes well for you on getting a refund.

mr1931S

66tbird>>I'm certainly no expert, yet if I saw it raw,,,,,, well, I'll just say there was something in each of your pics. #5,,, the raised bump in the field was the one that did it for me.

i'm no expert on gold either but the bump was the first irregularity i noticed...also,if this piece is a cast counterfeit it is probably underweight...

is underweight?...strike two...

if a casting,an excellent one...

i was reading a few years ago about some $10 Indians that were fooling even gold experts...

they were die struck...

MOrganMuncher

And it looks so nice to me.
i wonder if real gold was used to make it and how would one find out

darktone

I just weighed five more $10 coins and they all come in at 16.7 grams. The scale only goes down to tenths. Is this an accurate enough reading ? With this weight is it gold? mike

Bulldog

Tone I hope it is not "fools gold", But if there is any doubt in your mind, send it back. Lots more "Good Gold" out there for buyers. If you don't return it, you will never like it, cause you have doubts.

Happy Holidays!

Bulldog

coinkat

While the coin is suspect, it appears to have some die polishing on the obverse, however the bump is an issue. Could there possibly be a flaw in the planchet? I am not weighing in the the coin's authenticity without seeing it. However, here are just a few other suggestions... (1) Return the coin or perhaps the dealer will provide credit towards another purchase, (2) Talk to the dealer and make an agreement to extend the return period and send the coin to PCGS FOR AUTHENTICATION. Any reputable dealer should not object to that. If if is authentic and grades MS62 or 63, slip him him some extra bucks. Keep in mind, these are just ideas...

darktone

coinkat, thanks for your thoughts. I think this coin is gold by the weight and I would like to keep it for my collection if it is. It sure looks like real gold. mike

sinin1

Darktone - can you tell if it is die-struck? flow lines?

From the close-ups it looks like it could be a spark erosion counterfeit - lumps coming out of the field and on the letters 'TEN'

Weight usually has ranges that are acceptable - I would guess 16.8 g is probably close enough (don't know actual specs or how close your scale is -> could it really be 16.75001 that reads 16.8 on your scale? which then becomes lots closer to 16.718 grams)

Old gold had 10% copper that frequently did not mix uniformly -> are there any brown specs?

It is a funny date to fake, almost bullion value -> most fale $1 or $3 and use the real gold/copper ratio so specific gravity is the same.

mr1931S

i took a little more time and looked at the 5 pics a bit closer...i do see a good deal of granularity on the surface of the letters of "TEN D." but don't see this same granuality on "LIBERTY"...do see more "bumps" in various places in these close up images other than the one seen in the obverse left field on the first scans...

what does the edge look like? A casting always has a sprue or point where the molten metal went into the mold...this spot on the edge would have to be worked to appear as a normal reeded area...if there is a worn spot on the reeded edge that doesn't match with the rest of the reeded edge or evidence of tooling to make some reeds,that is indication of the point of entry into the mold of the molten metal alloy...

regarding the weight:a proper alloy would not be hard to make...the "underweight" of a casting comes from the very slightly reduced size of the cast piece...the weight under would be very slight and accuracy to tenth of a gram is insufficient to make a determination of whether a coin is within mint tolerances,mint tolerances which were very tight for gold coins...16.718 grams is the weight of a $10 gold piece as minted...if the piece in question is markedly underweight,by say, 8/1000 to 10/1000 of a gram,or more,i would definitely question it's authenticity...after all this piece has no wear to explain its being underweight if this is the case...i had a chart of mint tolerances for weight of coins but can't find it right now...8/1000 of a gram or more of being under the 16.718 value seems to me to be a definitely underweight $10 gold piece...

although this piece appears to be kind of flat strike if die struck at the mint,it does have pretty good detail...i think it's a mistake though to underestimate the quality that can be achieved by an expert using modern centrifugal casting techniques...

ANAAB was the first to detect the die-struck counterfeit $10 Indians that i referred to in an earlier post...the irregularities found on the counterfeit 10's were microscopic...

Unfortunately,they are no longer around...one of the major grading services should be able to tell you if your $10 piece is authentic,however...

Conder101

Diffenbacher shows a 1907 Philadelphia counterfeit eagle with a lump in the same place as the one on your coin but that die has quite a few other raised lumps and the lump in Diffenbacher is smaller than the one on yours. It does show the same granularity though.

At 16.8 grams your coin it too heavy and it is outside of allowable mint tolerances. The weight of an eagle of that time is 16.718 grams with a tolerance of +/- .032 grams. Unfortunately a scale that only shows one decimal place is not good enough. A genuine coin at the high end of the tolerance scale would weigh 16.75 grams which the scale would most likely round off to 16.8 grams. (Contempoary counterfiets would be low in weight but the fakes that started coming out of Lebanon in the 1960's were of correct or even slightly higher weight than the genuine coins.)

Diffenbacher also shows a fake 1901-S eagle that has a strong raised die line in the area between TES OF AM and the denticals. You didn't show a close up of that area and I mention it in case the counterfeiters may have combined the 01-S reverse with the 1907-P obverse after polishing it to remove most of the lumps to create an 07-S.

darktone

Thanks guy's, this is some good information. What do you think the gold content to be? mike

Conder101

If it is a 1960's Lebanese counterfeit (which it probably is if it is a counterfeit.) then it will be standard mint fineness .900 fine gold alloyed with copper. Contemporary counterfeiters made their profits by shorting the gold in either weight or fineness. Non-contemporary counterfeiters made their profit on the premium value of the coin over the bullion value. Shorting weight or fineness would make their products easier to detect and it wouldn't add significantly to the profits so it just wasn't worth it to short the gold.

jtryka

This is a great thread to illustrate what we should be looking for in gold, and bottom line, if it doesn't pass the gut check, pass on it. When I first looked at this coin, (not the close up shots), the mm just didn't look right at all. Looking more closely into the details, I am more convinced it's a high quality fake. But knowing mike, he probably didn't pay too much over melt for this one, so it's not a huge loss!

darktone

I will include this coin in my next submission to NGC and when it's returned I will make this coin available to forumn members for a look if interested. And Jeff is right if this coin is 90% gold I have less than a $20 loss. mike

darktone

NGC just posted my latest submission results and this $10 1907-S was listed as not genuine. mike

airplanenut

<< <i>NGC just posted my latest submission results and this $10 1907-S was listed as not genuine. mike >>

Why the smiley? Just curious.

darktone

I am happy I was able to detect it as a fake with the help of jtryka and that I have a very nice example of a well done forgery that I can share with fellow collectors also the gold content is worth close to what I paid for it. mike

coindaughter

In that case, congratulations!

Also, my condolences on the fake.

Glad you have a good outlook!

Outhaul

Well..Coingratulations...errr...I mean...My condolences....uh...errr...I mean...well...I'm so confused

SageRad

Wow, that's a pretty good fake, at least from the pictures!

It really reinforces my intention of purchasing only slabbed (NGC or PCGS) gold coins.

billiardmaster

That was one heck of a good counterfit. Way to good.
Rusty

jom

The close up shots looked like a cast counterfeit...is that what it was? Although, the weight you gave seemed good to me at first but Conder101 blew that out of the water...I didn't know it needed to be so precise.

Great thread!

jom

NumisEd

Darktone, please discard the notion of weighing the coin. Weight is usually a secondary or even tertiary means of authentication of gold coins. Here's my guess: The coin is a struck counterfeit. The surfaces, specifically the blemishes, give it away. It's hard to tell from scans, but I think that the luster seems "uneven" or blotchy.

Here's one final test that you can perform: LOOK AT THE REEDING OF THE COIN. Compare it to other $10 gold coins in your possession. Also, check the diameter. Stack the coins. Are they the same diameter and thickness? Is the reeding consistent?

Sorry.

Edited to say: only read first page, then I read the second. Duh.

darktone

jom, It really appears to be die struck to me as I can see metal flow lines but a good cast counterfiet I think could show these also?

NumisEd, yes I agree the weight alone can not prove a coin real but I think it can help identify a fake if the weight is way low. The reeding looks good.

When I get this coin back I will offer forum members in good standing a chance to view it in person. Just send me a PM. mike

dorkkarl

terrific thread & followup. i was wrong (had guessed sea-salvage), although it is very difficult to tell from a image. sea-salvage coins look just like counterfeits, imo.

FANTASTIC educational material here!

K S