i still think the rub present is insufficient to lower this piece to 55...would some rub on the upper part of the shield be the next point to look at for further evidence of handling or this coins having being rubbed a "little more?"
i see rub on the edges of the eagle's wings but i don't see any rub on the horizonal shield lines where the wings meet...or is the shield not a rub or wear point when considering the au number?
without factoring in "eye appeal" and "strike" and just looking at the numbers of the au grade having some meaning from the standpoint of a coin's rub or wear,once a coin is determined to be "not at least strictly uncirculated",or has a little rub,isn't 58 the proper grade?...slightly more than a little rub makes it 55...light wear (beyond the two degrees of rub) makes it 53...a little more than light wear of a 53,with luster still showing,makes it 50...
if no luster and,even with only the "wear" of 50,it's XF45...
am i all wet on this one?...
the reverse is a little nicer than the obverse mainly because of more luster...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Based on the fact that the majority of my grades in Mark's Advanced Grading Class at ANA Summer Camp were usually a hair on the low side, I would grade this an AU-55, which obviously means it resides in an AU-58 holder.
"Old" cleaning, subsequently toned over on edges. Wear on hair anatomically right of forehead, back of head, upper chest and left tittie. Reverse wear on clouds, wing tops and eagles head gives a technical grade of AU53. Despite the old cleaning, grade on slab (market graded) is AU55.
The forum's consensus grade, based upon 41 opinions, was 54.29.
Excellent! I say that, because although PCGS graded the coin AU 50, it is really an AU 55. PCGS was wrong and you were right - enough said! The coin is in an older holder, is actually far more lustrous than it appears in the images and its toning is more attractive and a bit more translucent in person, as well. I see no evidence of any cleaning, mentioned by one or two posters. You guys did great, without the benefit of true to life images!
I was really happy to find it for a couple of reasons. First, it is extremely difficult to locate coins of this type with the eye-appeal and originality of this one. Second, I have a potential want list for it and think that the client (who happens to be a great guy and a forum member) will be very pleased! He has not yet seen it, but might make an appearance here at a later time. If he chooses not to, his identity will be a well kept secret.
Bob - sorry, you don't get to keep it.
KlectorKid - you said "we need to remember that these coins where not the best struck. The 1796 quarter i believe was so weekly struck that u can hardly see the eagles head on the rev."
You're absolutely correct about 1796 quarters, though a number of these Draped Bust halves are well struck. This one has some nice detail in MS. Liberty's hair on the obverse and on most of the reverse, most notably the eagle's breast feathers, wings, claws and the leaves.
Pat - you said "AU53 is rarely used, but I'm going to agree with drsvenghali and go with it. If I had money on the table though and were playing the odds I'd have to then state AU55"
I counted your vote as an AU53 and will presume that you did not put "money on the table", though I like your thinking!
Clankeye and Gilbert - I don't recall seeing what appears to you, to be scratches in the left obverse field but will try to find out about that.
banknote1 - you said "It is hard for me to grade anything from a photo."
I agree, 100%, though I think it's less difficult for circulated coins - the lower the grade, the easier to grade from images, for me.
mr1874 - you said " luster is evident...makes this piece at least AU50...color-appears to be original toning to me,probably has not been recolored...old,old toning...has the "classic look"...we're on the way up from 50...surface quality-defect free....this coin was obviously appreciated and thus,carefully preserved...now at least 55...eye appeal...i'd be proud to have this coin in my collection...a very attractive piece...great example of the Draped bust design...and very close to uncirculated"
I like the way you did that - maybe because it reminded me of the way I discussed the grading of coins in the ANA advanced grading class that I've taught a few times.
nwcs - you said "Just watch, I bet it's really MS-60'
I wouldn't do that - it would be unfair and mean!
Michael - that was a very short analysis (by your standards) but not at all bad.
KS - you are right - the coin has a lot of "dirt" on it.
rkfish - you said "AU53.......mainly because Mark left a space between the AU and 53 only on this one.....message Mark?"
Interesting attempt at detective work, even if it didn't lead you to the "correct" result. .
Gilbert - you said "BTW Mark,
Thanks for letting me get in a word edgewise before revealing the details. Usually, I'm a day late and a Sacagewea short'
Glad you made it before the grade revelation deadline passed. I'd hate to see anyone out an additional Sacagewea.
Adrian, you said : " think the coin has been graded by PCGS and probably as an AU55, however I suspect that it currently resides in an NGC AU50 holder.
Mark is word meister and a law school graduate. Clankeye is right, count your fingers.
I think the coin is incompletely struck which counts against it more than technical grading should allow but NGC is moving away from technical grading and more towards what I call eye appeal grading.
I think Mark is trying to make a point that PCGS isn't always more conservative than NGC.
I also think he is currently wearing boxers and they are cotton with a blue paisley pattern.
Oops, lost the signal. Gotta go"
Interesting thought process. I think I put you down for an AU55 based on that, even if you guessed the wrong holder. Certainly the board members (with a few exceptions) already know that PCGS is more liberal than NGC in many cases - I need not point that out to them. I don't wear boxers so your video hook-up needs some major work.
Blade/Tom - good job grading it without checking the other opinions first.
Trime - it appears that I taught you well, even if we didn't review this type in the grading class.
Danglen - good thinking and good flexibility in your attitude!
Mark, Thanks for an interesting and informative post. I don't get to see a lot of bust halves, so its's great to get a chance to gauge my grading skills in an environment where I don't have big bucks on the line.
<< <i>i will guess pcgs market-grade of au-50 , grade by variety would be au-55 >>
SLAM-DUNK! in pcgs's defense, all the plasic co's do a horrible job of grading open-collar coins. above xf, MUST grade these more by surface quality , % of remaining luster than by details. that is why i say time & time again, never ever buy these coins sight-unseen! digipic's do not reveal the actual amount of luster.
mark, a most instructive thread, thanks for the great coin picture as well. i strive to make the core of my collection coins like that - great eye-appeal, very oriignal.
"I don't wear boxers so your video hook-up needs some major work."
Yes, but you didn't refute the "blue paisleys"..........and I got the PCGS grade right.
All this "rightness" ...........but in one hundred years people won't even know my name."
I had thought, once I pointed out to you that your video equipment was defective, you'd know that I don't wear "blue paisleys" either. For the record, I don't. You got the PCGS grade right, which made you wrong - sorry!
Better that you have all this "rightness" rather than "leftness", "wrongness" or "righteousness".
You need not fear people not knowing your name in 100 years. I am confident that the PCGS message board and/or Ebay will still be round then. And, that people will still be talking about/arguing over snakes, Anacondas and attorneys. You have all sorts of possibilities at being remembered 100 years from now!
I am glad that you enjoyed the thread, as well as the images. And, as I mentioned previously, I liked your thought process in arriving at the grade in the way you did. I felt like I was back in a grading room again!
It seems that this thread was much more popular than the previous one about the PCGS PR68 Barber Half dollar, though I'm not quite sure why - was it the "guess the grade" aspect? A cooler coin?
In any event, while I can't make any promises regarding being able to post upon request, if any board members have particular coin types they would like to see imaged and discussed here, please feel free to let me know. I will try, though I assure you, it is much easier requested or said, than done!
Comments
a "little more?"
i see rub on the edges of the eagle's wings but i don't see any rub on the horizonal shield lines where the wings meet...or is the shield not a rub or wear point when considering the au number?
without factoring in "eye appeal" and "strike" and just looking at the numbers of the au grade having some meaning from the standpoint of a coin's rub or wear,once a coin is determined to be "not at least strictly uncirculated",or has a little rub,isn't 58 the proper grade?...slightly more than a little rub makes it 55...light wear (beyond the two degrees of rub) makes it 53...a little more than light wear of a 53,with luster still showing,makes it 50...
if no luster and,even with only the "wear" of 50,it's XF45...
am i all wet on this one?...
the reverse is a little nicer than the obverse mainly because of more luster...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
My Website
"Everything I have is for sale except for my wife and my dog....and I'm not sure about one of them."
Greg
The forum's consensus grade, based upon 41 opinions, was 54.29.
Excellent! I say that, because although PCGS graded the coin AU 50, it is really an AU 55. PCGS was wrong and you were right - enough said! The coin is in an older holder, is actually far more lustrous than it appears in the images and its toning is more attractive and a bit more translucent in person, as well. I see no evidence of any cleaning, mentioned by one or two posters. You guys did great, without the benefit of true to life images!
I was really happy to find it for a couple of reasons. First, it is extremely difficult to locate coins of this type with the eye-appeal and originality of this one. Second, I have a potential want list for it and think that the client (who happens to be a great guy and a forum member) will be very pleased! He has not yet seen it, but might make an appearance here at a later time. If he chooses not to, his identity will be a well kept secret.
Bob - sorry, you don't get to keep it.
KlectorKid - you said "we need to remember that these coins where not the best struck. The 1796 quarter i believe was so weekly struck that u can hardly see the eagles head on the rev."
You're absolutely correct about 1796 quarters, though a number of these Draped Bust halves are well struck. This one has some nice detail in MS. Liberty's hair on the obverse and on most of the reverse, most notably the eagle's breast feathers, wings, claws and the leaves.
Pat - you said "AU53 is rarely used, but I'm going to agree with drsvenghali and go with it.
If I had money on the table though and were playing the odds I'd have to then state AU55"
I counted your vote as an AU53 and will presume that you did not put "money on the table", though I like your thinking!
Clankeye and Gilbert - I don't recall seeing what appears to you, to be scratches in the left obverse field but will try to find out about that.
banknote1 - you said "It is hard for me to grade anything from a photo."
I agree, 100%, though I think it's less difficult for circulated coins - the lower the grade, the easier to grade from images, for me.
mr1874 - you said " luster is evident...makes this piece at least AU50...color-appears to be original toning to me,probably has not been recolored...old,old toning...has the "classic look"...we're on the way up from 50...surface quality-defect free....this coin was obviously appreciated and thus,carefully preserved...now at least 55...eye appeal...i'd be proud to have this coin in my collection...a very attractive piece...great example of the Draped bust design...and very close to uncirculated"
I like the way you did that - maybe because it reminded me of the way I discussed the grading of coins in the ANA advanced grading class that I've taught a few times.
nwcs - you said "Just watch, I bet it's really MS-60'
I wouldn't do that - it would be unfair and mean!
Michael - that was a very short analysis (by your standards) but not at all bad.
KS - you are right - the coin has a lot of "dirt" on it.
rkfish - you said "AU53.......mainly because Mark left a space between the AU and 53 only on this one.....message Mark?"
Interesting attempt at detective work, even if it didn't lead you to the "correct" result. .
Gilbert - you said "BTW Mark,
Thanks for letting me get in a word edgewise before revealing the details. Usually, I'm a day late and a Sacagewea short'
Glad you made it before the grade revelation deadline passed. I'd hate to see anyone out an additional Sacagewea.
Adrian, you said : " think the coin has been graded by PCGS and probably as an AU55, however I suspect that it currently resides in an NGC AU50 holder.
Mark is word meister and a law school graduate. Clankeye is right, count your fingers.
I think the coin is incompletely struck which counts against it more than technical grading should allow but NGC is moving away from technical grading and more towards what I call eye appeal grading.
I think Mark is trying to make a point that PCGS isn't always more conservative than NGC.
I also think he is currently wearing boxers and they are cotton with a blue paisley pattern.
Oops, lost the signal. Gotta go"
Interesting thought process. I think I put you down for an AU55 based on that, even if you guessed the wrong holder.
Certainly the board members (with a few exceptions) already know that PCGS is more liberal than NGC in many cases - I need not point that out to them.
Blade/Tom - good job grading it without checking the other opinions first.
Trime - it appears that I taught you well, even if we didn't review this type in the grading class.
Danglen - good thinking and good flexibility in your attitude!
Thanks again, everyone!
Thanks for an interesting and informative post.
My Website
"Everything I have is for sale except for my wife and my dog....and I'm not sure about one of them."
<< <i>i will guess pcgs market-grade of au-50 , grade by variety would be au-55 >>
SLAM-DUNK! in pcgs's defense, all the plasic co's do a horrible job of grading open-collar coins. above xf, MUST grade these more by surface quality , % of remaining luster than by details. that is why i say time & time again, never ever buy these coins sight-unseen! digipic's do not reveal the actual amount of luster.
mark, a most instructive thread, thanks for the great coin picture as well. i strive to make the core of my collection coins like that - great eye-appeal, very oriignal.
GREAT JOB!
K S
Jay
Clankeye
I'd say AU 55.
Yes, but you didn't refute the "blue paisleys"..........and I got the PCGS grade right.
All this "rightness" ...........but in one hundred years people won't even know my name.
adrian
"I don't wear boxers so your video hook-up needs some major work."
Yes, but you didn't refute the "blue paisleys"..........and I got the PCGS grade right.
All this "rightness" ...........but in one hundred years people won't even know my name."
I had thought, once I pointed out to you that your video equipment was defective, you'd know that I don't wear "blue paisleys" either. For the record, I don't. You got the PCGS grade right, which made you wrong - sorry!
Better that you have all this "rightness" rather than "leftness", "wrongness" or "righteousness".
You need not fear people not knowing your name in 100 years. I am confident that the PCGS message board and/or Ebay will still be round then. And, that people will still be talking about/arguing over snakes, Anacondas and attorneys. You have all sorts of possibilities at being remembered 100 years from now!
Mark,speaking for myself only,this coin was great excercise for mr1874's tired old eyes...images are excellent btw...
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I am glad that you enjoyed the thread, as well as the images. And, as I mentioned previously, I liked your thought process in arriving at the grade in the way you did. I felt like I was back in a grading room again!
It seems that this thread was much more popular than the previous one about the PCGS PR68 Barber Half dollar, though I'm not quite sure why - was it the "guess the grade" aspect? A cooler coin?
In any event, while I can't make any promises regarding being able to post upon request, if any board members have particular coin types they would like to see imaged and discussed here, please feel free to let me know. I will try, though I assure you, it is much easier requested or said, than done!
sincerely michael