$5 Indian Gold Question

jom

Here is a rare thing. I'm actually starting a thread....not something I do often.

This is directed toward the dealers out there. Do any of you dealers notice the over-abundance of NGC graded $5 Indians (especially in low in MS and AU58) which all look dull and lifeless (very lackluster). PCGS coins in those grades (nice ones that is) are a VERY rare bird but NGC seems to have graded many of these for some reason. Again, the VAST majority of these are crap. See any Ebay list (or Heritage) and you'll see mostly NGC. I've always wondered why that is...any ideas? Any gold dealers in the know?

I may not get many answers on this but I figured I'd ask anyway.

jom

dragon

Hi jom,

I know the answer to that question.

dragon

jom

Dragon: That's great. Could you elaborate on that? lol

jom

MrKelso

<< <i>Dragon: That's great. Could you elaborate on that? lol

jom >>



Waiting with Baited breath to hear the answer. I wonder if it had anything to do witha specific collection or hoard flooding the market. I also remember reading about a Roman Gold finish but don't know what that is.

dorkkarl

mind if i (a non-dealer) chime in? of all the closed-collar gold coins, the incuse coins are my favorite, yet over the years i have had the most brutal time learning how to grade those puppies. 1 thing i figured out early on (but not as early as i should have): the coin is intended to have a rugged finish, ie. it should not be "lustrous", unless it is a later die state i supposed, & the matte finish of the dies is worn down.

on virtually an other series (buffalo's excepted) i rely more heavily on surface quality than most would, because for high grades (above xf certainly), it is a more reliable indicator than actual wear. but like i said, since the surfaces of the inc-indians is meant to be "poor" in the 1st place, it means i have to rely 100% on the other factors (wear, strike, eye-appeal) to grade these. for me, the inc-indians are not supposed to be flashy, they should be dull & lifeless where luster is concerned.

personally, i'd be a little leery of a highly "brialliant" inc-indian, but then again, i admit up-front that it is 1 of the toughest series to grade. i contend they are tougher than bust halves.

K S

jom

I should NOT have just included dealers there. Mistake on my part. I just don't know any other morons like myself who actually want to attempt a date set of these I figured that the dealer might have some info.

As far as "dullard" coins, yeah, it might be the design but I've seen lusterous $5 Indians (I wouldn't call them "brilliant" by any stretch, however) there just seem to be an abundant number of coins out there (even the better dates) that are: NGC graded and dull. Look thru Heritage's inventory sometime. ugh!

I'm looking for nice low MS grades and nice AU58s but there just aren't that many and PCGS just doesn't seem to grade them too often. Or, at least, I don't see them. I'm speaking of the better dates not the common issues such as 1909-D.

jom

BillJones

The Indian $5 gold is the most difficult 20th century gold type coin to find in strict Mint State condition. Since the fields and the Indian's cheek are the highest areas on the coin, those areas were very prone to marks and wear. The situation was made worse by the weight of the coin, which is why the $2.50 gold with the same design is a lot easier to find true Mint State. A lot of the nice sliders that you would expect to be in AU-55 and 58 holders end up on MS-61 and 62 holders.

And, yes NGC has put out a few too many unattractive and overgraded $5 Indian coins, but NOT all of them are that way. You just have to have the patience to wait for a good one, and when you find it you have to be willing to pay a fair price for it, which means more than "bid."

dragon

I could be wrong but it was my understanding that a huge hoard of $5.00 Indians and $20.00 Libs were uncovered several years ago, possibly from Switzerland(?). Many of these coins were submitted to NGC through a couple of large dealers. I saw one dealer last year with over 300 of the NGC $5.00 Indians (most AU58-MS62) and I noticed that many were graded from the same NGC invoice number. As for the $20.00 Libs, I have seen many of them in NGC MS64 holders that were barely MS62's IMO. I think that NGC is also terribly liberal and inconsistent on these large submissions as evidenced by the grades given to many of these gold coins as well as the grades assigned on the dollars from the recently graded Binion hoard.

dragon

dorkkarl

OT, but guess i'll jump on my usual soapbox here. i think gold coins are the most horribly, frequently & consistently OVERgraded slabed coins out there. yeah i know, their prone to bagmarks, impaired luster, blah blah blah, but when i see coins w/ enormous gouges on the cheek and so danged much chatter in the fields that it looks like swiss cheese, well, such a coin should NOT end up in a ms-62 holder, period. that inconsistency is just as prevalent w/ pcgs as ngc. such coins should be netted down to au-55 or even au-50.

maybe no other series is it more true, that a au-58 w/ minimal bagmarks is a way better find than a ms-62 w/ swiss-cheese fields.

guess it's the same old story - do not buy coins sight-unseen.

K S

jom

<< <i> think that NGC is also terribly liberal and inconsistent on these large submissions >>



What??!! You mean the micro-second the grader has to look at these coins in this situation isn't long enough? C'mon!

I believe Dragon's reason is probably the case here. I haven't looked at Lib gold too much but I too have noticed many of those hanging around also.

Karl is probably correct. I was told by Dave Bowers himself (in response to a letter I sent him about a similar subject a number of years ago) that he had noticed "gradeflation" in the Lib $20 series especially.

Bill, of course, is right on. I would add to his comments by saying you have to have super-human-like patience with the $5 Indian series. I'd say 95% of them out there are junk....

Funny story: The ONLY nice better date $5 Indian I saw at the June Long Beach show was in the Heritage "Bullet" auction. Can you believe that? It is mostly garbage coins in that auction but in there was the sweetest 1914-S I've seen in YEARS (PCGS 62). The coin didn't sell but so I called Heritage on it afterward and the owner wanted $4000 (normal MS62 money is about $1700). I felt it was a bit of a stretch but I said "OK". Then the person that was helping me then noticed I had to pony up the dough (20%) to Heritage! ARGH! I just couldn't do that so I passed. Damn Heritage..

jom