Donn, please be aware of the fact that humor is NOT tolerated on this forum, especially if it involves modern coins. Modern coin collectors have endured being the butt of jokes for too long now, so any ribbing, chiding, or any other untoward action toward them will be immediately countered with vituperation. You have been warned.
I say that anyone even suspected of any crime should be tarred and feathered, hog tied and dragged behind running horses, hung by the neck until dead, and finally beheaded with an axe right in the center of the town square for all to see.
It is a chilly (and, of course, windy) 22 degrees in downtown Chicago, so I appreciate the WARM WELCOME from this forum. Thank you!
Now that I'm logged in, tuned in and plugged in, I'll be happy to participate or merely lurk on the sidelines, whichever the forum prefers.
Here is my New Year's Numismatic Prediction. Watch for movement in Congress next year on new designs for circulating denominations in addition to the quarter dollars. A former staff member of the U.S. Senate Banking Committee -- which under then-Chairman Phil Gram was interested in new designs -- now is working at the U.S. Mint as a congressional liaison. COINcidence?
So, how's this for a forum topic: Do you think the U.S. should produce new designs -- slightly diferent or complete revamping -- on other circulating denominations? (Guess I should start a new thread, heh?)
Happy Friday, -donn- Donn Pearlman
"If it happens in numismatics, it's news to me....
Donn, welcome to the forum. I really like your chosen moniker. There are more than a few days when a just half sense would make a lot of sense around here.
zerbe... this happens every minute of every day, its called business. The point is to buy low and sell high, the difference is called profit. ABC news did a little story last night about "unscrupulous antique dealers". The undercover reporter went in and sold a Carterier cigarette case for $25.00 and the dealer sold it the same day for $650.00. With great rightous indignation they confronted the dealer about ripping off the seller. SO WHAT! It is not only buyer beware, but also SELLER beware. I agree at some point crimes of confidence do occur. But if you think someone should graciously pay you 90% of the value of an item you want to sell in the name of pious honesty, you are living in a dream world. It just doesn't happen that way. If I offer you 10% of that value and you accept it, we just made a deal, honest and fair.
I have to agree with presley on this one - if the seller of an object doesn't know and isn't smart enough to take the time to find out out what they have, then they have no grounds for complaining when thier object turns out to be worth much more than what they get.
If on the other hand, the seller does now and the dealer tries to rip them off, then I will listen to thier complaints.
Cecil Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!! 'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
Let's debate the point for a moment, and not RG personally, i.e. business vs. fraud.
If you ask a dealer how much your collection is worth, and he tells you $25 when he knows he can turn it $650 very quickly, he obviously lied about the value. That is not business, that if fraud.
If a person comes in and says "what will you give me for this?" and the dealer says $25, has he acutally made a misrepresentation?
If you are selling an item and you have no clue about the value, GET MORE THAN ONE OPINION, and do a little research on your own. Don't sell it to the first person who you talk to. These are just common sense things people should do. Hell, I have probably thrown out things of value just because I didn't know there was a market for it. Looked like junk to me. If I threw out an old kids toy and read the next day that someone "found" this toy on my street and sold it for $650, do I have recourse?
If a dealer is approached by someone who has a probable incapacity, whether by age or other infirmity, then the burden should be on the dealer to not take advantage of this fact. It changes the playing field.
When I had an active law practice and someone came in for a Will, I had a series of questions that I went through to help me assess the mental state of the client prior to drawing up a will for them. For lawyers, it is a requirement. For others it is just a plain good old idea.
Just pondering here (on topic at least). The critical factor in the story that prompted this thread is whether the original owner was incapacitated or more suceptible to a scam than an average person and whether someone took advantage of it. Being 94 years old raises the question in and of itself.
Well said DMW JR. You just beat me to making that same point. It was not business, when the seller has an infirmity, to me it is fraud. I am not accusing anybody here, just using the circumstances, that were presented. If that was business as usual to you, presley, then I know of a great Coin dealer, on the west coast, who is looking for people like you, and it definitely is not Ron Gillio.
Welcome to the Boards, Halfsense! Thanks for the tip on the upcoming new coin designs. Any word on a return to the gold standard? ...or maybe the return of the gold that was nationalized in 1933 by FDR?!
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
The challenging thing about a description such as "incapacitated" (and terms like that) is that is a question of fact for the jury but potentially an unknowable for someone trying to engage in a transaction with that person.
I can tell you one thing, everyone should be careful about buying things from older people, say over the age of 45, because the older the seller is, the more likely it is that someone will later say that they were incapacitated at the time of the sale.
Strom Thurman just turned 100 and is still serving in the senate. Age in itself is not a disease. I am not really a bad person, but I have made a living and paid a ton of taxes based on buying and selling. I have a profitable business and have a good reputation in my community. I think it is very easy for people who don't buy and sell to critisize those who do. I don't have to cheat anybody to make money. There are three responses to my offer to buy. Accept my price, reject my price and walk away, or make a counteroffer and renegotiate the offer. I am not angered by any of the three. That is your right as a seller. It is also my right as a buyer. I would love to buy one of those new 350 z cars right now for about $5000.00. So far nobody has taken me up on that one. It is interesting that people seem to believe that a reseller should be bound by a code of ethics that limits the buyers profit. I am quite often the only buyer in town for the products that I deal in. If you have a model 1305 Lincoln pizza oven, I will pull 5 one hundred dollar bills out of my pocket on the spot and give them to you for the oven, in good condition. I can sell it for around $2000.00. Most people take the $500.00. Two people are in agreement on the price and both walk away, if not happy, at least with mission accomplished. That is business. If they walked in and said would you give me $100 for this oven, I would say yep and buy it. What is wrong with that?
Greg, I am saying something like that. I would encourage anyone who is unsure of the value of items they wish to sell to seek the advise of a professional in that field BEFORE selling their items. Banks and prospective buyers pay me to appraise equipment packages before and sometimes after deals are made. I am sure you would be qualified to appraise coin collections. Would that not be a better alternative than for your uninformed next door neighbor to take grandpa's coin collection to the nearest dealer and blindly sell it? Haven't we all at some time said "I wish I knew you were selling your (fill in the blank) I know someone who would have paid more."
It used to be that a contract with an incompetent was voidable.
Well, now, in California, a low ball offer which is accepted by a person who is later determined to be "incapacitated", will get you arrested and sent to prison.
And who do you think is responsible for this new law? Damned lawyers. Probably a bunch of personal injury lawyers who want a criminal finding so they can then sue for damages. Let the DA do all the work at taxpayers expense, then sue the buggers for every penny they have. "We were so distraught that Grandpa sold his coin collection. We've been getting psychological counseling and may eventually get back to normal but it's gonna take a lot of money for fix our pain......"
I can just hear it now....
"I'm sorry. You don't look as bright eyed as I had hoped. Oh, you're sixty years old? Wow. Can you fill out this profile so we can find out if you're qualified to sell this to us?"
adrian
The world is changing. Next thing we'll see is Russ buying something that isn't a Kennedy.....maybe a Walker.....we classic boys haven't had some kind of effect on the modern boys, have we......?
What!!! I am over the hill already? I can't even see the darn hill!
Please bump that age up like a decade or two!
On a serious note. I always explain 2-3x to those over late 60s what they are getting into when doing a transaction. Some times they get pissed too, like if i were talking to a child but at least my conscience is clear!
<< <i>Strom Thurman just turned 100 and is still serving in the senate. >>
presleyh,
Not the best example you could have chosen.
Fundamentally, I agree with you, though. Too many people seem to believe that profit, by it's nature, is automatically evil or somehow immoral. It is not. Nor is the amount or margin of that profit. The means by which that profit is acquired may, or may not be, depending on each unique circumstance.
Without the profit motive, we would be living in a third world country.
And all of this is one reason why so many people with a very conservative code of ethics cannot be dealers or at least highly successful dealers. They feel terrible selling something for too much or buying it too cheap. Their code gets in the way of their own profit and livelihood.
Presley, I said 94 "raises the question" but did not say it was conclusive. If a retarded person or a child came in and asked if you would buy the stove for $100, would that just be "business?" Of course not.
About the Will thing I spoke of earlier. I was always real suspicious of whoever drove mama to the lawyer's office to get their will drawn up. I always met with the client by himself or herself, and protracted the drafting over several appointments. Sometimes I think they thought I was just goosing up their fee, but I was really testing their decision making capacity and the ability to exercise free will. Of course I never insulted them by saying this to them. I also sued heirs sometimes for undue influence. You would be surprised by what some family members do to each other -- like property deeds from daddy which were allegedly signed by daddy in his dying days and recorded at the courthouse AFTER daddy died.
I know I got off topic, but this is one of the reasons that I feel strongly about dealers who "appraise" and then "buy."
<< <i>Well, now, in California, a low ball offer which is accepted by a person who is later determined to be "incapacitated", will get you arrested and sent to prison. >>
<< <i>I can tell you one thing, everyone should be careful about buying things from older people, say over the age of 45, because the older the seller is, the more likely it is that someone will later say that they were incapacitated at the time of the sale. >>
I am surprised that Gov. Davis is still around under these harsh conditions and secondly, my 45 years old plus California clients don't ever have to pay any of their (still) unpaid utitlities bills from 2000 year since they can claim age onset I-forget-whazzit. ?
<< <i>Big difference between asking what it is worth and asking what you'll give me! >>
That is true, but it's safe to say the general public isn't aware of the subtle difference. Beware, those who phrase things the wrong way!
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Comments
adrian
Obscurum per obscurius
dragon
Now that I'm logged in, tuned in and plugged in, I'll be happy to participate or merely lurk on the sidelines, whichever the forum prefers.
Here is my New Year's Numismatic Prediction. Watch for movement in Congress next year on new designs for circulating denominations in addition to the quarter dollars. A former staff member of the U.S. Senate Banking Committee -- which under then-Chairman Phil Gram was interested in new designs -- now is working at the U.S. Mint as a congressional liaison. COINcidence?
So, how's this for a forum topic: Do you think the U.S. should produce new designs -- slightly diferent or complete revamping -- on other circulating denominations? (Guess I should start a new thread, heh?)
Happy Friday,
-donn-
Donn Pearlman
I think it would be great to have all new, completely revamped US coinage, in fact, I think it should have been done years ago.
dragon
time to find out out what they have, then they have no grounds for complaining when thier object turns out to be
worth much more than what they get.
If on the other hand, the seller does now and the dealer tries to rip them off, then I will listen to thier complaints.
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
If you ask a dealer how much your collection is worth, and he tells you $25 when he knows he can turn it $650 very quickly, he obviously lied about the value. That is not business, that if fraud.
If a person comes in and says "what will you give me for this?" and the dealer says $25, has he acutally made a misrepresentation?
If you are selling an item and you have no clue about the value, GET MORE THAN ONE OPINION, and do a little research on your own. Don't sell it to the first person who you talk to. These are just common sense things people should do. Hell, I have probably thrown out things of value just because I didn't know there was a market for it. Looked like junk to me. If I threw out an old kids toy and read the next day that someone "found" this toy on my street and sold it for $650, do I have recourse?
If a dealer is approached by someone who has a probable incapacity, whether by age or other infirmity, then the burden should be on the dealer to not take advantage of this fact. It changes the playing field.
When I had an active law practice and someone came in for a Will, I had a series of questions that I went through to help me assess the mental state of the client prior to drawing up a will for them. For lawyers, it is a requirement. For others it is just a plain good old idea.
Just pondering here (on topic at least). The critical factor in the story that prompted this thread is whether the original owner was incapacitated or more suceptible to a scam than an average person and whether someone took advantage of it. Being 94 years old raises the question in and of itself.
It was not business, when the seller has an infirmity, to me it is fraud. I am not accusing anybody here, just using the circumstances, that were presented. If that was business as usual to you, presley, then I know of a great Coin dealer, on the west coast, who is looking for people like you, and it definitely is not Ron Gillio.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
I can tell you one thing, everyone should be careful about buying things from older people, say over the age of 45, because the older the seller is, the more likely it is that someone will later say that they were incapacitated at the time of the sale.
anaconda
Greg, I am saying something like that. I would encourage anyone who is unsure of the value of items they wish to sell to seek the advise of a professional in that field BEFORE selling their items. Banks and prospective buyers pay me to appraise equipment packages before and sometimes after deals are made. I am sure you would be qualified to appraise coin collections. Would that not be a better alternative than for your uninformed next door neighbor to take grandpa's coin collection to the nearest dealer and blindly sell it? Haven't we all at some time said "I wish I knew you were selling your (fill in the blank) I know someone who would have paid more."
Well, now, in California, a low ball offer which is accepted by a person who is later determined to be "incapacitated", will get you arrested and sent to prison.
And who do you think is responsible for this new law? Damned lawyers. Probably a bunch of personal injury lawyers who want a criminal finding so they can then sue for damages. Let the DA do all the work at taxpayers expense, then sue the buggers for every penny they have. "We were so distraught that Grandpa sold his coin collection. We've been getting psychological counseling and may eventually get back to normal but it's gonna take a lot of money for fix our pain......"
I can just hear it now....
"I'm sorry. You don't look as bright eyed as I had hoped. Oh, you're sixty years old? Wow. Can you fill out this profile so we can find out if you're qualified to sell this to us?"
adrian
The world is changing. Next thing we'll see is Russ buying something that isn't a Kennedy.....maybe a Walker.....we classic boys haven't had some kind of effect on the modern boys, have we......?
What is the guideline, legally, for a lowball offer? Is it less than 50% of wholesale? 50% of retail? ???
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
"older people, say over the age of 45"
What!!! I am over the hill already? I can't even see the darn hill!
Please bump that age up like a decade or two!
On a serious note. I always explain 2-3x to those over late 60s what they are getting into when doing a transaction. Some times they get pissed too, like if i were talking to a child but at least my conscience is clear!
<< <i>Strom Thurman just turned 100 and is still serving in the senate. >>
presleyh,
Not the best example you could have chosen.
Fundamentally, I agree with you, though. Too many people seem to believe that profit, by it's nature, is automatically evil or somehow immoral. It is not. Nor is the amount or margin of that profit. The means by which that profit is acquired may, or may not be, depending on each unique circumstance.
Without the profit motive, we would be living in a third world country.
Russ, NCNE
I would argue that your behavior showed that you suspected the person was incompetent. Sorry, but law school changes you.
adrian
that I was mentally incapacitated while I was in my teens. So, there you have it.
Now at 64 , I am so far out, that I have started to come back in.
Camelot
profit and livelihood.
roadrunner
Presley, I said 94 "raises the question" but did not say it was conclusive. If a retarded person or a child came in and asked if you would buy the stove for $100, would that just be "business?" Of course not.
About the Will thing I spoke of earlier. I was always real suspicious of whoever drove mama to the lawyer's office to get their will drawn up. I always met with the client by himself or herself, and protracted the drafting over several appointments. Sometimes I think they thought I was just goosing up their fee, but I was really testing their decision making capacity and the ability to exercise free will. Of course I never insulted them by saying this to them. I also sued heirs sometimes for undue influence. You would be surprised by what some family members do to each other -- like property deeds from daddy which were allegedly signed by daddy in his dying days and recorded at the courthouse AFTER daddy died.
I know I got off topic, but this is one of the reasons that I feel strongly about dealers who "appraise" and then "buy."
<< <i>Well, now, in California, a low ball offer which is accepted by a person who is later determined to be "incapacitated", will get you arrested and sent to prison. >>
<< <i>I can tell you one thing, everyone should be careful about buying things from older people, say over the age of 45, because the older the seller is, the more likely it is that someone will later say that they were incapacitated at the time of the sale. >>
I am surprised that Gov. Davis is still around under these harsh conditions and secondly, my 45 years old plus California clients don't ever have to pay any of their (still) unpaid utitlities bills from 2000 year since they can claim age onset I-forget-whazzit. ?
<< <i>Big difference between asking what it is worth and asking what you'll give me! >>
That is true, but it's safe to say the general public isn't aware of the subtle difference. Beware, those who phrase things the wrong way!
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.