BJ Wanted More Coin Talk: Here Goes... :)

wondercoin

Seriously, I believe the grading companies should consider recognizing CAMEO and DCAM copper coins even if they are graded "RB" or even "BN". Why should a Proof Indian Cent or a fabulous Proof Lincoln or even a Two Cent piece, etc. with exceptional color and wonderful CAMEO contrast not get a CAMEO designation simply because it is not graded as a RD" coin? Why shouldn't the coin be graded say PR66RB CAMEO"? I believe the CAM designation should have nothing to do with the color designation.

What do you think? Wondercoin

kieferscoins

I agree. I have seen a few cameo RB copper coins that should have the designation. I haven't seen any BN's though, but copper isn't my expertise. If anything, open it up to the RB designation and see the reaction.

Cameron Kiefer

dbldie55

Mitch, this can only mean you have one for sale, but want the designation first.

DAM

wc,

I don't know if they're gearing up to attribute CAM and DCAM for Two Cents, but they finally got around to weighting the series. Here's what it looks like.

Notice both CAM and DCAM are listed. By-the-way, the PCGS pop report doesn't show either for a Two Cent coin, as of today. Whether RB or BN will receive the attributation, who knows? I suppose an email to David might answer that question.

In my opinion, if a copper coin exhibits CAM or DCAM characteristics, whether RD, RB, or BN, it should be so designated. If not, why then can a deeply toned silver coin receive the same?

coinguy1

Mitch, I agree with you on this point!

NGC already recognizes certain RB and BN copper coins as Cameo's (I'm not sure about Ultra Cameo).

I made my feelings known to PCGS about this months ago, but shockingly, they did not immediately change their policy, based on my obviously wonderful, unsolicited feedback.

I do believe that their policy is quite arbitrary, as there are many obvious RB Cameo coins floating around (and some BN ones too). In many cases, these coins are as blatantly cameo or more so, than the silver coins which receive the Cameo designation. I know that I am not alone in my thoughts on this matter.

wondercoin

dbldie55: I thought the word "Seriously" at the start of the post might result in a 100% meaningful discussion. Why don't you try posting again and we won't hold your first post against you. Give it a try so we can get a 100% meaningful discussion on this post. I'd love to hear what you think of this issue. This is a free country you know!

Coinguy: That's interesting that you also raised the issue a short while ago. I'm glad to see you also agree with the concept. After others add to the discussion, maybe David Hall might give us his thoughts on the subject.

Wondercoin.

dbldie55

Sorry Mitch... I am at work and do not have time to be to serious. I will give a more serious answer this evening when I get home.

Better?

mdwoods

One of the prettiest Lincoln Proofs I have ever seen was a proof memorial that was toned. The cameo was a sort of cinammon color and the contrast was dramatic. The coin was not full red, but it sure was beautiful. mdwoods

relayer

Actually, PCGS already started doing that.

Joshua

Mitch, Mark,
There are too many subjective areas now without adding cameo or dcam to the mix. There are enough problems with grades and color designations already with copper coins. I was disappointed when I saw that cameo and dcam were being added in the first place.
Copper already has three color areas and now you want to add two more. In effect you will have nine different categories of proof Indians per date. Just too many.
What this accomplishes is to give dealers more of a price range among dates.

Joshua

wondercoin

Joshua: "A rose, is a rose, is a rose".

If the copper coins are Cameo, they are cameo. It is besides the point that they are RD, RB or BR. It is besides the point that they are PR65, PR66, PR67 etc. Doing the wrong thing for the wrong reason doesn't make it right

Wondercoin

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

I agree with Joshua.With Indian cents and to some degree Lincoln cents there are already (5) designations per date. If a dealer obtains an Indian with a r/b cameo he can sell it with a little sticker on the plastic which says cameo or d cam.

To the best of my knowledge NGC will not call a pretty silver proof coin cameo or d cameo if the toning covers the portrait

I also find many collectors including myself confused about what is a cameo vs a deep cameo.Just where is the dividing line?

If one wants to find out how confusing it can get just look at the teletrade prices realized guide.

Stewart

wondercoin

Thanks Stweart for those insights.

I'll tell you what bothers me - when dealers and collectors feel they need to "dip" out that incredible original rim toning off a coin in order to get the DCAM designation. IMHO, this is rediculous. If one can clearly see a coin is DCAM, it should not lose the DCAM designation because the coin naturally developed some beautiful rim color (do you disagree with this Stewart?). You point is well taken comparing RB to toned silver coins that do not get the DCAM or CAM grade, BUT, with all due respect, I do not like a rule that compels dealers or collectors to "dip" silver coins to try to do what it takes to get the DCAM designation by removing natural color.

Wondercoin

coinguy1

Joshua, you said:

"Mitch, Mark,
There are too many subjective areas now without adding cameo or dcam to the mix. There are enough problems with grades and color designations already with copper coins. I was disappointed when I saw that cameo and dcam were being added in the first place.
Copper already has three color areas and now you want to add two more. In effect you will have nine different categories of proof Indians per date. Just too many.
What this accomplishes is to give dealers more of a price range among dates."

I certainly agree that adding the cameo designations to RB and BN copper would be complicating things further. But, I don't think that would be any different from or more subjective than using those designations for RD copper coins. If they are going to do it for RD coins, they should for RB and BN, as well. The "price range among dates" that you mentioned, will most likely result, whether the cameo designations are used or not, anyway.

roadrunner

NGC has already graded proof 19th century coins as cameo with deep toning over the portrait. I have a seated half with bullseye type toning where only the center 2/3 of Miss Liberty and the eagle are in a white contrasting color. The rest of the figures are decidedly not cameo and covered with darker rainbow colors. The coin does look great however even if not technically CAMEO. I've seen them do this on other Liberty Seated proofs too.

roadrunner

mrpaseo

I have to agree with relayer, I think PCGS is allready working this into the mix with the PR69RD DCAM labels.

My suggestion, hold onto the RB and BR CAMEOS or DCAMS you might have until this is in full effect, then take advantage of the situation and sell, sell, sell!!!...lol

I agree that there will ba a new fluxuation in the Copper market, but hey, bring on the excitment. WHo wants a hobby that never changes? I say change is good (No pun intented) it brings in new markets (Note I am not a dealer) and keeps the hobby growing by attracting more collectors. More collectors means more knowledge.

Just my two Lincolns,
Ray