Does PCGS graders have a PREJUDICE toward crossing NGC coins?

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · December 3, 2002 2:48AM

I have many PCGS registry sets.I always buy the coin when acquiring a coin for one of my sets.Lately it has been an obstacle course getting an NGC coin into a PCGS holder.
Some of my experiences have been to crack out,write "cross at any grade" or downgrade a coin and then take sometimes a year or longer to get the grade at which I believe the coin should be holdered .

What have been other forum members experience? Does anyone think it will get worse when Rick (who) Montgomery starts to grade at NGC?

Stewart

Clankeye · December 3, 2002 2:55AM

I have never tried a direct crossover and I am sure that I never would. The few times I have done it, I crack the coin out and take my chances. One reason I was was willing to do this is because I thought that coin had a shot to upgrade, and at the very least I was confident it would be regraded the NGC grade. I've done this at least three times, and got the crossover grade each time. No upgrade. But, I actually can live with that very well. It gives me confidence that certain grading standards are being followed.

As to your question about prejudice... I can't help but believe the rivalry that exists between the services wouldn't make it harder to cross a coin when presented in the other's holder. I just wouldn't waste my time.

Carl

Russ · December 3, 2002 2:58AM

Last NGC coin I sent to PCGS went up a point. Of course, I cracked it out before submitting it.

It was a PR67CAM in an NGC holder, now a PR68CAM in a PCGS holder. I would also note that I think NGC was right, and PCGS overgraded it.

Russ, NCNE

Mark · December 3, 2002 3:17AM

Russ:

Are you going to crack that coin again to give PCGS another chance at getting the grade correct?

Mark

prooflike · December 3, 2002 3:19AM

Looking at it from a different perspective, if the coin was deserving of the grade, why wouldn't PCGS put an NGC coin in their holder? It would be one more in a PCGS holder and one less in an NGC holder.

Does anybody really think that PCGS graders say to themselves "Boy, this coin sure deserves to be crossed, but it's in an NGC holder so can't do it."

Russ · December 3, 2002 3:20AM

Mark,

I would do that, except that overgrade compensates for an undergrade that was on the same submission.

Russ, NCNE

gemtone65 · December 3, 2002 3:21AM

It seems clear from both experiences of forum members and comments directly from DH here that PCGS graders are instructed only to cross NGC coins that are in the top 20-25% for the grade using PCGS standards. That is, the goal of PCGS is not to objectively cross NGC coins that would receive the same grade if raw; rather, it is to "rape the best NGC coins" as DH so colorfully put it and leave only the lowest graded quality coins left in NGC holders.

Clankeye · December 3, 2002 3:22AM

<< <i>Does anybody really think that PCGS graders say to themselves "Boy, this coin sure deserves to be crossed, but it's in an NGC holder so can't do it." >>

No. But I can well believe that they see the coin is in an NGC holder and right out of the gate you have created another barrier to be overcome in dealing with the coin on it's merits alone.

Carl

prooflike · December 3, 2002 3:32AM

cross NGC coins that are in the top 20-25% for the grade using PCGS standards

Now this is a good policy from the perspective of PCGS. the good looking coins will be in PCGS holders and the not so nice coins in NGC holders, absolutely brilliant.

One must remember, PCGS grades by PCGS standards while NGC grades by ANA standards, they are different, a subtle diffrence, but different.

I guess the only true solution is that if you believe you have a certain grade but feel you can't get it in an NGC cross, crack it out. If you feel threatened that PCGS would bag it, etc. and don;t want to crack the NGC slab, obviously your convictions on the grade aren't that great.

Morganluver · December 3, 2002 3:50AM

gemton65's comment looks to be correct. Therefore, the best and least biased chance you have for your coin to be properly graded is to crack it out. PCGS would never admit being biased, although my belief is that they are, to the point of being unfair. How often have you heard the statement, "buy the coin not the holder"? PCGS, or any other service for that matter, should have this statement plastered on the grading room walls, "Grade the coin not the holder"

tjkillian · December 3, 2002 4:07AM

Stewart,

I have also recently tried to cross a beautiful MS-65 Red indian cent from NGC to PCGS. No luck. I feel for you as I know you have an eye for only the best indians.

Tom

osirisMMII · December 3, 2002 4:19AM

Stewart - to your three questions 1) YES! 2) VERY NEGATIVE! 3) YES - maybe unconsciously (to a point) but still definitely yes.

<< <i>Does anybody really think that PCGS graders say to themselves "Boy, this coin sure deserves to be crossed, but it's in an NGC holder so can't do it." >>

Another resounding YES!!

dragon · December 3, 2002 4:22AM

"from a different perspective, if the coin was deserving of the grade, why wouldn't PCGS put an NGC coin in their holder? It would be one more in a PCGS holder and one less in an NGC holder."

prooflike,

IMO, PCGS wants to make everyone believe that PCGS coins are superior and that only a very select few NGC are worthy to be in PCGS holders at the same grade. I also believe they do this in part to discourage people from buying NGC coins in the first place.

I think the last criteria they actually use is whether or not the coin really meets the grade, which is why most people won't play the PCGS crossover lotto these days unless they just can't live without their coin in a PCGS holder for some reason.

When you consider all the money people have completely wasted in the past playing the crossover lotto,,,,,,,,,,it would probably be enough to buy an 1804 dollar, and all just to have the 'right' holder.

dragon

prooflike · December 3, 2002 4:25AM

Every month we got to look at 2000 NGC coins and cream the best half to put in PCGS holders

There you go, try to cross in the beginning of the month when the quota hasn't been filled

RotatedRainbows · December 3, 2002 8:20AM

As was stated above if PCGS did cross all the coins that deserved it they would be telling people that NGC coins are just as good which would shoot down all the ad hype they have been paying for all these years.

tradedollarnut · December 3, 2002 12:10PM

I think they are searching for a real and smart business man-someone who Hall and crew will have to report to.

Sorry, I've already got a day job!

EVillageProwler · December 3, 2002 12:11PM

how much does this job pay?

evp

EVillageProwler · December 3, 2002 12:20PM

i guess it depends on how many shares!

evp

clackamas · December 3, 2002 2:29PM

I have had a 100% cross with NGC coins, BUT and a big one, I had to crack more the 70% of these to cross. I attempted a full cross on all coins and only coins that were PQ crossed at first try. I have a superb GEM 1910-S in a MS66RD NGC holder at PCGS right now and that coin had better cross because its 66RD all day long. I have a felling it will because its PQ for the grade and PCGS should be proud to have this coin in thier holder.

All in all I would say there is a chip on the PCGS graders about NGC coins and give at least a -.5 pt. grade just because. If its the grade and comes in Raw, in the end it will cross. With some coins, however its so hard to just crack it without giving a try in the current holder. I actually have had better results with ANACS coins crossing than with NGC. I even had an ANACS coin upgrade on a cross in the last 6 months. Shocked the heck out of me.

Brian

shylock · December 5, 2002 5:21AM

Interesting thread, especially the comments about PCGS reviewing their crossover attitudes. Find it hard to believe they didn't know exactly what they were doing all along, but no matter. If it becomes more accurate as the result of recent circumstances than that's a good thing.

Stewart -- since only one IH 67RD has been added to PCGS's pops in over two years I'm looking forward to hearing about your results.

Lakesammman · December 5, 2002 9:03AM

If only they would allow us to include ugly PCGS coins with NGC crossovers, the inconsistency would become obvious even to them!

Joshua · December 5, 2002 9:49AM

Stewart,
Over the past six months I have send in for crossovers over fifty NGC coins. Right now I am batting 0. Yes 0. It is almost impossible that not one of those coins would cross. They included almost all series that I collect. However, what was more disturbing was when I sent five Dahlonega gold pieces in for crossover at one grade lower and still had none cross. I know where these coins sit in the condition census and if I was to believe them then these coins wouldn't even be in the census. I wrote a letter to Rick about this and questioned how none of these would cross but he never bother to respond. And this after I allowed my indian set to be displayed with your tremedous set.
My Dahlonega's were sent in with other submissions of the same type and I received them back a week before the other ones leading me to belive that they never bother to look at them or see that I wanted them crossed at one grade lower.
I firmly believe that PCGS will not cross any high grade coins from NGC. Why would they? It increases low pop's and makes them worth less.

Joshua

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · December 5, 2002 11:10AM

Joshua,

Before I exhibited my Indian cents with your collection and the Richard collection,I went to Newport Beach and spent $1,000 for what I considered the best ten coins in my set and NONE of them upgraded.
If you bring coins to Florida, write on the invoice and speak to Sandy Locker at customer service, at what grade the coins will cross,Sandy will do it for you.Tell her I told you so.

GOOD LUCK
Stewart

Does PCGS graders have a PREJUDICE toward crossing NGC coins?

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