Who cares about designations like "full bands", or "full steps"?

BigD5

Do those designations REALLY matter? Let's take "full head" designations on a Standing Liberty Quarter. Are you willing to pay a significant premium for an SLQ with a full head designation that has a weakly struck center? So, your coin has a "full head", but the shield isn't complete. Does the "full head" designation mean anything at that point?
Similar arguments can be made for "4 diamonds" on Indian Head Cents, "full bands" on Merc's, and "full steps" on Jefferson nickels etc.........
Are we looking for nice coins, or coins with proper designations?

bohica268

Full Head? All this time I thought it meant "full hooter" and applied only to the type 1 SLQ.

UncleJoe

I DON'T.

But I don't do MS. I don't even like the idea of 63, 64, 65 splitting hairs with huge increases in premium.

If I did MS and also had to think about FSB, FBL, FS, FH, ABC, XYZ, Full Split Tail, Full Split Eagle Beak, Full Eyeball, Full of Sh..., well you get the idea. I think my head would explode.

I like holding the coins, I like knowing what they are and have a reasonable expectation of their value without whipping out a 100x loupe.

But that's me. If you really enjoy finding the best, then more power to you and I wish you success. It's just not my cup of coffee.

Joe.

LucyBop

BigD5, I am looking for both, a nicely fully struck Franklin half with bold Full Bell Lines and I will pay a premium for the FBL desgination. As far as a SLQ having a Full Head but a weak shield, I have to ask, do you really think all the Full Head SLQ are this way? In Mercurys, yes I want full split bands and in Jeffersons I want full steps, in most cases these coins tend to be fully struck, I can say that about the majority of my collection.



<< <i>Are we looking for nice coins, or coins with proper designations? >>



The coin can and often is both.

cladking

There is a high degree of correlation between fullness of any specific design
feature and fullness of strike. The design features selected for grading pur-
poses tend to be the last to strike up on a coin and/or the last to appear on
the die so that this correlation is even greater. While the fullness of this part
of the design may or may not be critical, certainly quality of strike is.

BigD5

Lucybop, I would never say "ALL". It does happen quite often though. I agree, most times you will find "nice and properly designated", but would someone be better off sticking to a 70% full head SLQ, with a full shield, or a full head coin with a weaker shield? I say the first coin, and save a boatload (maybe a rowboatload ) of money.
This should make for good Thanksgiving holiday banter......I hope.

IrishMike

The vast majority of IHC's were struck with full four diamonds, that is not the case with FH quarters,FB mercs, FS Jeffs or FBL Franklins. I wouldn't pay the premium that these coins are getting, but to each his or her own. The two major grading services don't even agree with what constitutes FB, FS or FBL. At least with FH Slq it is more easy to ascertain and the the two services are closer on the designation.

My personal thoughts are that these designations on the slabs are a negative on the hobby, not a postive. They tend to isolate one part of the coin and therefore skewing the value. I agree with BigD5 it's headed on a path of looking for designations, rather than nice coins.

LucyBop

I don't agree that it happens quite often, all though I am not a SLQ person, I simply love these coins and I dont pass up a chance to examine them. Hopefully some experts in this series will chime in cause I am curious if they will agree with your assessment. I choose to get the best fully struck FBL Franklins I can and if I spend a rowboat of money to do it then I will, now I am not saying I wont buy appealing coins that don't have these designations, but I look for the FBL, split bands, Full Steps, first. I find these type of coins to be of a overall higher quality. And I know there are always exceptions, I have a ms66 53s Frankie that is a sharply struck gem but has enough of a weakness to be FBL. This was a $300 coin. If it was a Full Bell, it could be a 50k coin. Would I spend that much? You betcha! You may not, but I would! The pop numbers are very low in this grade and desgination making this coin a huge conditional rarity.

kranky

There was a thread recently about SLQs slabbed with the FH designation that weren't FH. And I doubt anyone wants a FH that has a weak shield - and they are out there.

I guess I see these designations as interesting, but not compelling. Like UncleJoe said, it's like splitting hairs over a single point of grade difference. For me, I don't think I'd pay ten times the money for a coin with Full Whatever vs. a coin that's 90% full. And no one seems to care if it's almost Full Whatever - it's either Full or not. Of course, most people want well-struck coins (so do I), but there are a lot of those which don't carry any designation.

I boldly predict the best way to make a lot of money in coins is to sniff out the next Full Whatever designation to become widely recognized and buy them up while no one is looking. Until they put the designation on a slab, you might pay a small premium. Once they do, the Registry Set will drive up the prices. It won't be easy, though - you'll have to look at lots and lots of coins!

LucyBop

<< <i>I agree with BigD5 it's headed on a path of looking for designations, rather than nice coins >>



And I disagree and would say that one tends to find nice coins that have the qualities that warrant any particular desgination. I don't think its bad for the hobby at all, in fact in the Franklin series it creates some wonderful bargains in the ms65 or 66 non FBL coins. Which I am after those as well, but again, FBL is my first choice.

LucyBop

<< <i>sniff out the next Full Whatever designation >>



The next one will be the full Papoose or Full Baby Head on the new Sac Dollars! Are you listening HepDaddyHall?

IrishMike

LucyBop, this is the conundrum that you have avoided addressing in this thread, you collect FBL and FB's in PCGS slabs, NGC has the reputation for being tougher on these designations. So are you really collecting FBL and FB or coins that PCGS says are and NGC might not. This is the point that is being made. You are buying a coin that not even the services can agree on. But of course we are all better graders and smarter than the grading companies, right? I just choose not to play this game, its ok with me if you and others do, really it is. Frankly what you collect is only your business. I am just pointing out to you why I don't.

tjkillian

I really like a coin that has a full strike. For me, a full strike is more important than either full luster or lack of marks. To see a coin the way the designer intended is clearly the only way to go. I like indian cents with full feather tips and all four diamonds. Those other designations are a way of determining a full strike.

Tom

LucyBop

And I am simply pointing out why I do collect these desginations. I stick with PCGs slabs cause I am building a registry set in the PCGs Registry and guess what, when it comes to FBL Frankies I go after the ones that have all 7 bell lines fully struck. Now I will admit that I have some that wouldn't go FBL at NCGs, but I will say this, I have made many purchases of NCGs Full Bell Frankies that I plan on crossing over, but, I just may start a NGC Registry set as well. When it comes to Mercury dimes I look for dimes that have all three bands fully struck and split. Anyhow as you said, to each his own on what they collect, this is what the HepKitty collects, and if you think of it as a game cool, then the Kitty is a player!



<< <i>So are you really collecting FBL and FB or coins that PCGS says are and NGC might not. >>



Yes, in fact I am.

LucyBop

<< <i>But of course we are all better graders and smarter than the grading companies >>



These cats have been brutal with me in Mint State Frankies, however I have gotten the FBL designation every time. In Proofs I prefer the DCAM desigantion and again would and will pay a premium for, PCGs was more kind with me here, as I had two Frankies go pr68Dcam....
They is no way I can outsmart HepDaddyHall........... Unless they want to talk Vocal Group Harmony from the 50s!

1956Quarter

<< sniff out the next Full Whatever designation >>

Uh, that would be the full XXXX on the Peeing Minuteman State Quarter...

Fairlaneman

Will comment on the FB Mercs..... OVERATED !!

The FB for sure does not designate a fully struck coin. Probably the best example of this is the 25D which usually comes with FB's but is also almost always very weak on the obverse. So weak that at times a MS coin will look like a AU coin to the casual observer. Another good example is the 26D that has almost always weakness within the lettering at the edge.

The Just Miss coins are great bargins IMO and just as pretty if not more pretty.

No comment on how the grading services do or donot attribute these. Its been beat to death.

Ken

FC57Coins

<< <i>this is the conundrum that you have avoided addressing in this thread, you collect FBL and FB's in PCGS slabs, NGC has the reputation for being tougher on these designations. So are you really collecting FBL and FB or coins that PCGS says are and NGC might not. This is the point that is being made. You are buying a coin that not even the services can agree on >>



I'll take up for the Franklins in this question in part as it relates to a question that Gilbert addressed to David Hall. When you buy a coin, hopefully those of us who know a little more than the average bear about coins, will still inspect their coins before buying them. I think there are two questions being asked here - first do you trust NGC or PCGS implicitly, and 2 is the FBL designation good enough to guarantee a good coin. My answer the both of these is NO. All of us have seen coins graded improperly in slabs, and all of us realize that there are degrees of "PQness" in each grade. In addition, we know that the difference between one grade and another, at some point can be so infinistesimally small, that a headache, a bad day, or a good day on the part of a grader might make a difference (ie they're human) That being said, you HAVE to look at the coin regardless of the designation. If now you look at Franklins designated FBL, you don't just look at the bottom bell lines and say "yup - Im good" you look at the entire coin, the bell, the tressel, the bust, the lettering, the rims, the color, and in the case of Franklins, the crack on the bell, pass and stow, and the hair detail including the three wisps, to see if you have a coin that you deem appropriate for your collection and for your budget.

Having said all this I'll say that I've only seen a handful of Franklins in MS65FBL where the bottom three bell lines were there and the rest of the coin wasn't at an average strike. On notable exception was a 1954 S half that I ran into with beautiful bell lines at the bottom of the bell - but the rest of the coin looked as though it had been literally struck through a rag. It was an interesting piece and I wish I had had the $300 that to blow just so that I could keep it as a conversation piece but such is life.

To end I will say that as far as FBL Franklins, the bottom three bells are a good bellweather as to how the rest of the coin is struck. If you see weakness of the strike, generally you see it start at the three bell lines on the bottom and that's why I think PCGS has chosen to go that route as opposed to looking at all 7 bell lines like NGC does. We have to remember that what we're looking at is the entire coin, not just the bell lines, and lets face it - the more restrictive we get, the fewer coins meet the criteria, so to some degree that plays into the decision as well. Ideally we should have Full Bell Lines-Strong Pass and Stow-and Three Wisps as the proper designation for fully struck Franklins. But unfortunately as well, we'd have so few that people would lose interest in achieving such lofty heights for coins in their collection because there just aren't that many coins which meet this criteria, especially between 1956-59 when the master die was so worn that very little detail was coming through.

Frank

BillJones

Frankly the Full Head Standing Liberty quarter is the only one that makes any sense to me. That design is really attractive when it is well struck, and in that case strike does matter.

The rest of the designations range from the "that's nice but I won't pay for it" category to marketing foolishness that is meant to get more money out of the truly obsessed collector.

LucyBop

BillJones I guess it comes down to what series a collector chooses to specialize in, this Kitten happens to like Frankies, and I do want to collect GEMS with every detail possible, plus, I have the money to do it as well. When it comes to proofs, there is the cam and dcam desginations....I love the dcam! Most would be happy with a brilliant proof (and I have many that I love like my 54 Frankie!!!) But I love the desgination DCAM!!! And the black and white contrast with deep mirrors.....

CarlWohlforth

I will pay extra for full strikes. It makes a difference to me. Including Mercury dimes, Jeffersons and the others.

I did find a SLQ that had a very nice strike with a better struck shield, hands and toes than most with the FH designation. However the head was about %80 full so it didn't get the FH. I felt I got a bargain.

NIckelCollector

It gets worse. The same price list shows a 1955-D nickel in PCGS MS64 FS for $1,200. My Red Book shows a 1955-D nickel in MS65 for $0.25. Over 74 million were struck. Are the visibility of fully struck steps really worth $1,199.75 for the same coin in a lower grade?

Common sense tells me to buy a slightly lower grade and pocket the 99% difference to spend on other coins. I can either get all Jefferson nickels in uncirculated and proof condition to fill my Dansco or get one 1955-D in MS64 FS. Since the latter choice is the same price as the former, it leads me to believe that many collectors would choose the latter.

Common sense must be more than scarce. It must be rare.

Text

In my opinion, there is no question that a 1955D MS64FS is worth significantly more than a 1942 proof type 1 nickel. Here's why

The 1942 proof is common coin. I have been collecting Jeffersons for over 25 years and attended numerous coin shows. Almost every show has 1942 proofs available, many in grades PF64 and higher. In my opinion you just can't look at mintage #s. While only 29,000 1942 proofs were minted, many are readily available and over 2000 certified by PCGS alone.

The 1955D has a mintage of 74 million. I have located 1 in full steps in 25 years. This is a scarce coin in full steps with only 16 in total graded by PCGS. Many 1955D have poor strikes and appearance. Full steps are extremely difficult to locate. Are there more out there not found yet - yes. If you find one in MS65FS I'll pay more than $1200.

Full step collecting has been around for 25+ years. Is it a fad? I don't think so. Will prices continue to rise? Maybe, maybe not.

Common sense tells this collector to collect full strike and full step Jeffersons.

NBSQLGeek

On nickles Im always on the lookout for FS.

jom

People can and do collect what they want. I, however, do NOT bother with these strike designations most of the time. It does depend on whether there is a significant premium for whatever series it is (date dependent).

The bottom line really is whether the coins' STRIKE (or lack thereof) is seen as effecting the QUALITY of the coin. To me, paying a LARGE premuim for a FH SLQ without a full shield is a waste of money (and, yes, it does happen all of the time). Same with all the other designations. I constantly see FB Mercs with weak periferys. I'm sure the same can be said for FS or FBL or whatever. To think that these particular areas of the coin are the ultimate in strike is a severe mistake because it just isn't the case.

Fairlaneman's collecting habits should be used by all. You can save a TON of money (more coins!) and at the same time cherry-pick coins that many people seem to ignore. I mean, if you come by a nicely toned Jefferson nickel that doesn't have FS do you care. What will you see first? The toning or the electron microscope that's needed to see the full steps? lol

jom

shirohniichan

I look at my coins with the naked eye, so minor details that can only be appreciated with a loupe don't mean a whole lot to me. I like strong strikes, flashy luster, and everything else that makes up "great eye appeal," but I won't pay a great amount more for only a slight gain.

I collect trade dollars, and while I like to see Liberty's head struck up strongly, I won't pay two, three, 10, or 20 times the price of a strong strike for a super-strong strike. Full split toes are nice, too, but I won't pay a huge price jump for them, either. If the overall look of the coin is 50% better than a common one, I'll pay 50% more. I won't pay 1,000% more for a 10% increase in eye appeal, though.

smprfi

Full head! Is there any other kind?

dlshaw

This is a question where pride comes into effect. You want the best grade you can afford or available otherwise you could just collect any circulation coin.
The question about art was raised on previous post. If you bought a painting would you want a clear no problem painting or would you want a painting with stains,wear,smudges, etc? NO, you want a excellent painting.
You take pride in your collections so you want the best.

LucyBop

I have never needed a loop to see Full Bell Lines on a Franklin or split bands on a Merc! But the Hepkitty has eyes like a cat and see's everything!

UncleJoe

I take great pride in my collection and most of my coins are very far from the best.

A painting is one thing but coins were meant to circulate and accumulate wear. I enjoy looking at the coins and seeing the different amount and type of wear on the different coins.

I just don't have the need to say my coin is better than yours. I collect for my enjoyment and relaxation and not concerned if the "market" agrees with me.

When I see "buy the best" what does that really mean? Everyone writes about collecting but I feel they're really talking about $$$.

Joe.

MacCoin

<< <i>Who cares about designations like "full bands", or "full steps"? >>




At this time in my collecting career I don't care about a full anything, but if I could afford a mint state 1916 SLQ I would not mind paying a significant premium for a nice full sheild, breast, head strick.

agentjim007

nice full sheild, breast

forget the shield

coinrookie

I will pay extra for a fs or fsb. But you do need to look at the whole coin. In general when you have such designations the whole strike is "usually better". There are exceptions. Buy the whole coin not just the designation. I like to purchase coins that are as close in apppearence to that of the coin when it was struck.
Now the monkey wrench are the standards of the two major grading houses. As of late, I look at NGC for FS Jeffs. But the problem lies in the overall grade also. Is an NGC 66 FS = PCGS 65 FS. Does the tighter grading of the designation outweigh the perception that the overall grade is not as strict as PCGS. I do not think this question will ever be answered. So best thing to do is look at each coin as a whole. The NGC coin may cross to it`s equal in PCGS. It may not. That is why coin collecting can be frustrating and also the risk of the gambling aspect can be alluring.

LucyBop

Regardless of how FBL started, I'm glad it did and love searching for these raw and submitting them....

Mrpawn

Seems to me that these are deemed as determiners of a fully struck coin. Personally I like fully struck coins of many types. I also enjoy finding a good error coin, but I am not fond of mushy weak strikes. Even if the determinations are imperfect I appreciate the guides in determining a full strike on any coin.

Jr

oldcameoproofsguy

In the Franklin Half series strike makes a huge difference. I purchased a 1953-P PCGS MS65 non-FBL and when I got it in the mail it looked like mush. In fact, when I first glanced at it there was so little detail that I thought that it was an EF coin in a MS65 holder. I returned the coin and later purchased a monster 1953P MS65 FBL coin. The difference was staggering. It was like night and day.

In the Franklin series I will only purchase well struck coins.

In the SBA series all coins deserve the FU designation...
FULL UGLY.

LucyBop

BigD5

Ok, so all those in favor of purchasing coins with the appropriate designations (FH, FBL, FSB etc....) get in line. You should be happy to know we have sorted through THOUSANDS of coins to find nothing but the best in quality of full band Roosevelt dimes, Full hand Walkers, Full split tail Buffalo nickels..........new designations that arent officially recognized.....Wait a minute. If I lobby hard enough with a grading service and get them to recognize my new designations, collectors will be pounding on my door. Have to do that first. Get the services to recognize these designations. Of course, I'll have to line their pockets in order to do so.
Baseball hit on what I was kind of waiting for. Other series have "strike" designations that are just as important as the popular ones (Fh, FB, etc.) Why aren't they as popular? Is it because the grading services haven't recognized them as popular, or haven't DEEMED them as popular? Is the next cash cow for the services recognizing another "designation" on a new series? Roosevelt dimes perhaps? Hmmmmmmm..........enjoy the Turkey today

LucyBop

I have every year of the Roosie's Raw, All pulled from mint sets, and yup, keeping the ones that are full band just in case cause you never know and yeah it would be very nice to be ahead of the grading companys on this, but whether that would happen or not, I don't care. I love my Roosies and want the most fully struck ones I can find.

I could counter and say, "For those in favor of purchasing coins without the appropriate designations (FH, FBL, FSB etc....) get in line. and come up with something witty, but instead I'll say enjoy collecting the series you love, study that series, be very aware of the desginations and varieties, and as your searching through raw coins at a dealers inventory, seek out these gems. Whether that desgination be Accented Hair, Split Bands, Full Bell Lines, Full Steps, Full Head, Dcam, Cam, and the many varieties found in the Morgan dollar series and the list is endless.

And if the fact that grading companys don't agree with these desginations so be it. Very easy to find Franklins that would meet NCG's criteria for FBL. NGC seems to be looser with the CAM desgination on Franklins then PCGs, but I have seen some very awesome NGC cameo Frankies. I for one, don't buy a slab just cause it sez FBL, or FS, I still have to really love the coin and examine it everywhere.
Happy searching and collecting,

the HepKitty

leothelyon

Any mint state brilliant uncirculated coin that sports less than a full strike is a "misnomer" or is unsuitable for grading or collecting. But for some dates, unfortunately the strike fails miserably. And so whatever the grade of a particular date, usually plagued from minting problems became acceptable and neccesary to complete a set, especially if a collecter wanted to do so within his lifetime. Thanks to Adolf Weiss, founder
of the original PAK Full Step Jefferson Nickel Club in the 1970'S and a special thanks to Richard and Susan Sisti who took over the club in the 1980'S and if it were not for the 300+ full step collecters of that time, ANACS would have never began designating Jefferson nickels with full steps. As told to me by other collecters, this is how other denominations got there starts.
As for strikes, it's an impossible endeaver to collect EDS strikes for every date in a series. A coin doesn't need to be fully struck to be collectable for reasons I and others have stated earlier. On a scale of 1 to 10, coins with medium strong strikes to EDS strikes, off the top of that scale, 6 to 10 are collectable and this allows ample room for a variety of strikes that are acceptable to most collectors. Enjoy the hobby and learn along the way. You can gain many years of enjoyment from collecting with common sense.

Leo

mdwoods

Do those designations REALLY matter? Let's take "full head" designations on a Standing Liberty Quarter. Are you willing to pay a significant premium for an SLQ with a full head designation that has a weakly struck center? So, your coin has a "full head", but the shield isn't complete. Does the "full head" designation mean anything at that point?
Similar arguments can be made for "4 diamonds" on Indian Head Cents, "full bands" on Merc's, and "full steps" on Jefferson nickels etc.........
Are we looking for nice coins, or coins with proper designations?

I am looking for both nice looking coins that are fully struck. A Jefferson nickel have a little ding on the steps and be nice, but if the steps are not there, it is not a well struck coin. Same with the FB designation on the Merc dime. I look at all the areas of the coin to see the quality of the strike. I would settle for a coin with less luster, but a better strike. To me that is the number one factor for a nice coin. I do agree with you regarding FH SLQs. A FH coin with a weak shield is not a full strike either, IMO. Mark