Can someone post an image of a MS 66 & MS 67 Liberty Nickel to compare them?

Elcontador

This year I've probably seen 50 MS 66 Liberty Nickels; 30 PCGS & 20 NGC.
I'd like to focus on the PCGS coins, as the PCGS 6's I saw were superior to their NGC counterparts.

I've never seen a 7, though. I know these are scarce coins. Still, a 7 would cost I am guessing a good 3X a six (and 6's aren't exactly cheap), assuming you can find a 7 in the first place

My question is what make them different? A 6 has excellent eye appeal (if it doesn't, IMO, it's overgraded). However, you might see one or two of the following problems:

1) a few carbon flecks or one spot
2) star 7 & the left corn are weakly struck
3) maybe three or four adjacent stars are weakly struck
4) there is one noticeable contact mark in a grade sensitive area
5) you may see a few much smaller contact marks in Miss Liberty hair or field
6) a patch of uneven toning / color change which is noticeable but not obnoxious.

On a 7, does the coin has the 6's eye appeal but none of the problems listed above? I'd like to know this sort of thing. I agree with Scott Travers re a type coin in 7 is a wonder coin, so I'd be suspicious of anything graded higher than that.

Placid

MS67. The label got cut off in the pic.

Placid

sinin1

Placid pulled up some good pictures - I would suggest going to Heritage or Teletrade sites and looking in their auction archives - you can search as specific as PCGS MS67 and get some pictures of some really good coins -

Personally, I find it difficult to tell much difference in these top end coins from pictures / I can't get a feel for luster and some nicks are not seen in one view but show up on rotation.

Elcontador - did you see all of those 66's in person? Just about any series looks cool at those top end grades.

Ronyahski

Sorry, can't do pics, but a couple observations:

I think 1) and 2) and 4), and most likely 3) automatically take you out of 67. Paricularly 1), I think PCGS grades down harshly for carbon spots.

All of the 67s I've owned or seen (I think 4 coins) all have that lustrous creamy look to them, and were definately not dipped.

I also think PCGS grades to a 68 scale for Lib Nicks.

I own a 68 proof but I'll be damed if I could tell you why it's a 68.

michael

well for me i totally disagree with you on the 67 thing for ngc

i think you have to buy the coin not the holder

i saw a ngc 67 ms coin that was a super monster 67 coin in the ngc holder

and was really super nice for the grade!!!!

but the above is based on sight seen and since i have not seen all the pcgs ngc ms 67 lib nicks i cant say for sure

but the ones i have seen have been monsters and real 67 coins!!!!!!

give me your e mail and i will send you a scan of a monster super nice 67 ngc ms 67 coin a real 67!!!!!!!!!!!

and this is a poor substtute for a sight seen examinatrion but i guess it is all i have!!

sincerely michael

michael

for me in 35 years of looking at superb gem ms 66 and 67 coins the 67 are few are far between super rare the difference between a 66 and 67 for waht i have seen in 66 and 67 holders the
difference will be the lustre and the marks

the 67 will be a monster eye appealling coin the 66 can be monster eye appealling also but waht separates the 66 from the 67 will be less marks the 67 will have virtually none and will have monster flash and lustre!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that is the biggest difference between a real66 and real67 ms coin the flash and lustre!!!!!!!!!

give me your e mail and i will send you a flashy super flashy monster lustre almost mark free 67 abet a ngc ms but still a real 67!!!!!!!

if you saw this coin in person you would pass out! but this is based on my opinion as such and my 35 years specializing in these coins!

i am also the one that got the proof 67 deep cameo 1901 in a pcgs holder ladt april and this 1901 proof 67 deep cameo pcgs is undergraded but at the time pcgs was not putting any 68 coins in 68 holders........lol

also this coin has the deepest mirros and contrast i ahve ever seen on a lib nick! i showed this coin to a top insider dealer in lib nicks and he told me he had just seen a proof 68 cameo lib nick and this 67 deep cameo was heads and tails wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy nicer!

well waht can i say i am a legend in my own mind.....lol

and i am unimonous in that opinion.........lol

anyway tell me your e mail!!!!!!!!!!

sincerely michael

michael

here is the ngc ms67 lib nick i think graded 3??? years ago

i hope i can upload this pic

sincerely michael the pic is crappy this coin needs to be sight seen but i guress this is all i got

this coin is not quite fully struck almost but not quite on the corn as all are in ms well99.9%..........lol one small super small mark on the reverse only seen under magnifyication



sincerely michael i guess i do not need your e mail after all!! and one top insider dealer looked at this coin and he is a specialist in lib nicks and he told me it was the best ms lib nick he has seen in terms of technical quality and he also said the eye appeal was exceptional !!

he is the one who photographed it for mee!! not that that matters or means anything as i am not going to tell you who it was.........lol and i will tell you this this coin has never ever been dipped or cleaned or soap and watered and the lustre on this coin is monster super blast!!!!!!!!!!! i mean monster blast................... WITH A THICK ORIGINAL SKIN TO IT WHICH STILL DOES NOT EFFECT THE LUSTRE

of any lib nick i have ever seen in superb gem ms this is one of if not the best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Trime

Michael,
Thanks for the pic. I think you have shown us this coin before (or did I dream this?).
I think all would agree with the inherent specialness of this coin. The luster is really incredible even with a scan. The eye appeal (to me) is a standout. I like this coin because there are no points added for toning that people could disagree about. It is simple but elegant beauty. I was reading your comments on your coin while looking at the scan. Is/are the reverse mark(s) you are referring to in the field by the wreath to the right of the V? I could not appreciate any softness of the corn at this magnification and this scan but there is a slight softness to the strike of the hair above and in front of the ear ( Not nearly as soft as Placid's 1904 but softer than Placid's 1889).

I will not reinter into the NGC vs PCGS grading threshold arguement except to say I lined up 60 or so slabbed MS and proof gem LSHD from both services and could not find a systematic difference to my eye between the two companies for my coins.

Incidentally, while I love Michael's monster coins, I am tiring of the term "monster" even from one who really knows quality; the descriptor is now used too much for too many coins ( This a monster issue is a personal thing and not requiring a response).

El Contador,
Your post is appreciated. Your observations represent the faults noticed a number of MS66 certified coins by one grading service. Sometimes faults are balanced by exceptional other qualities but as you get into loftier grades the tolerance for weaknesses dissapates. We talk a lot about coins of same grade and their differences in our haranguing of the grading services. It would be good to put up 20 scans of different coins of the same grade, same year, same service on the forum to view and discus the differences. Probably could manage this by borrowing from the Heritage Archives ( maybe with permission although we do it all the time). (Mark Feld, we didn't do this even in Colorado Springs).

Gilbert

Just my observation,

I really believe EL Cid qualified his choice of using PCGS coin as "of the ones he saw, the PCGS ones were better," NOT that PCGS MS66 Liberty Head nickels are better than NGCs. I only point it out because I'm sure he qualified it TO AVOID the inference that one company is better than the other, and thus, lead the thread away from his point: What is the difference between a 66 and a 67.

michael

hi there trime you are really smart yes that is a super smaLL tick NEXT THE V to the right of it ON THE REVERSE THE COINS ONLY MARK THE HAIR IS FULLY STRUCK BUT THE SCAN SHOWS IT weak BUT IN PERSON IT IS ALL THERE BUT not like deeply struck it is there and is much better than the scan

also you maked an excellent point about the use of the monster term for me even i am using it too muich.lol but i guess if someone has many monsters it is still disconcerting to see this used all the time

even though the coins from this eastern collection were bought over a really long period of time with much effort for lookiing years and years just to get a few coins from waht i was able to find out

where a n average dealer would buy this many coina in one day over the counter whereas these coins took many many years to accumulate

but i am going to have to use the term monster only when absolutely necessary

but it is overused all the time

sincerely michael

Elcontador

Thanks to everyone re your responses; it makes my day a little bit better. Three or four years ago, I became curious about Liberty Nickels.
Every time I'd see one, it was an incredibly streaky, ugly coin. I began to wonder if any with eye appeal existed.

Proofs of all grades seemed to be available if I looked (I finally picked up a PF 66 Liberty Nickel two years ago), but the MS 66 Nickels seem to cost about double the PF 66s, and none seemed to be around, except the 83 No Cents, which is really in its own category.I read pop reports & realized that PCGS or NGC, these 6s are scarce but given the rarity, to me they did not seem to be obscenely expensive.

Occasionally I'd see a really ugly one at a show; otherwise, as soon as one became available for sale, it was sold before I could get an answer to an inquiry. In June, Superior got probably the largest group of MS 66 Liberty Nickels assembled in the last 10 or 20 years. There were a good 20 or so PCGS & another 15 or so NGC Liberty Nickels. I viewed all of them & attended the live auction. Bidders went ape****. An ugly PCGS 6 ran $1,500 - $1,600, figure $300 less for the NGC coins which sold (prices include commission). These coins had the dip residue, carbon, contact marks, weakly struck stars, etc. The really nice PCGS material went for $1,900 - $2,100, with the most beautiful coin selling for $2,400......................

After that, I'd see 6s more frequently. Yes, I have personally viewed a good 50 of these coins in 6 & posted my observations about them. As Gilbert reminded everyone, of the particular coins I viewed, the PCGS material looked better to me. I was curious re what a 7 looked like, considering the steep price increment between a 6 & a 7.

Michael, you can't really see outstanding eye appeal from an image, but your coin "has the look." No carbon. I see no contact marks. The obverse appears to be fully struck except for Miss Liberty's lowest strand of hair. The toning adds to the coin's eye appea and the coin is definitely original.

I think the best place to "line up" a number of 6s would be the Superior auction of this last June. I don't think any 7s were available.

I have seen the only 69 graded Liberty Nickel. I think it was a 1911 NGC PF 69; a very helpful guy at Delaware Valley Coins (Mr. Rosenthal?) showed it to me at the May - June show in Long Beach this year. The coin's mirrors were second to none and there wasn't a mark on the coin. There was some light tan haze on parts of the obverse which didn't detract from the luster.

Maybe I'm too old school, but to me, even in light of the preceding paragraph, a type coin in 67 should be a perfect coin. I'm sure a number of people who collect moderns can take me to task and point out the differences between 7s, 8s and 9s from the various dimes, quarters, etc. But to me, a type coin in 5 should mean that it's in the top 10% of coins from that date & mintmark which have been graded, in addition to meeting technical standards. If a 5 does not meet that standard, I won't buy it.

Thanks again to everyone for your thoughts on this matter.
Feliz día de graça a todos.

1907Quarter

is the "0" in 1904 doubled??

Trime

Regarding doubling of 0 on the 1904 Nic:
Looks like the entire date is repunched but could be produced by shaddow if light from top.Note the last star near rt end of date also looks doubled. What do you see Placid?

Ronyahski

My take of the signifigance of the June Superior auction. Up until then, there were just not any high end Lib nickels on the market, only an occasional one. Nobody bid them up on the dealer boards and collectors were for the most part resigned, but demand was pent up. When this dealer hoard (notice I did not say collection) hit the market, which had been around for years waiting for the right time, the floodgates opened.

In an instant, there was a market for these coins. Higher prices were established. Supply begat supply, and now all of a sudden, the coins waiting on the sidelines hit the market.

Prices are going through the roof, but soon enough the pent up supply will wane, the demand will be satiated, and prices will drift downward. That is the way of the coin market.

roadrunner

While I think a 69 should have less marks than a 68, and a 68 should have less marks than a 67, the services seems to differentiate between these 3 grades more on the order of flash,
blast, eye appeal, depth of mirrors, strike, etc. than just marks or hairlines. The only proof NGC 69 seated quarter I have seen up close had scuffs on the high points and some field hairlines. But the frost and depth of mirrors were incredible. Hence the assigned 69 grade. Still, it would technically be a 67 based on marks alone.

roadrunner

Trime

Regarding the question of repunching of the 1904 date raised by "1907quarter". I returned home to check on references since I don't really collect Liberty Nics. Breen describes repunched 1904 dates as minor varieties. Still await Placid's review of the coin he posted (if his as he could have borrowed from a website).

Placid

Nope not mine. There was no mention of the doubling on the zero in the auction discription.

michael

i think thast as long as you have an extra special lib nick that is a real ms67 then you will be safe but if you ARE BUYING ms 66 67 proof 67 68 coins that are not real for the grade as most are not then it will be problematic for you as the market turns!

but the problem with most/some graded gem/superb gem lib nicks is that they are not waht they are stated to be on the holders

sincerely michael