<< <i>stujoe, you asked "Next question is: Would you then go back to the person who you bought it from and pay them what it is really worth now that you know?" Yes, I would, as silly as that might seem. >>
Doesn't seem silly at all. In fact, it is a consistancy I admire.
Time sure flies when you don't know what you are doing...
Sorry, late to the thread. I must be a real scumbag. I don't even see the "ethical issue" here.
Like the squeezing one says, if it's a friend, do him a square and tell him. If it were a dealer at a show, I wouldn't think twice. I'd buy the sucker if I wanted/needed it. Kudos to David Hall, who appears to agree.
I have never had a dealer say to me: "are you sure you want to pay my asking price? Look at that ding, right there." Likewise, dealers seldom volunteer that their coins may be artificially toned, or cleaned (if they think they can get away with it).
A dealer I've never met is not my "best bud" -- he's in business. Presumably the price incorporates what he or she believes to be an appropriate mark-up. I am not about to second-guess how they run their business. On eBay, the goal is to get the coin as cheaply as possible, not to inform the seller what a great coin they have and try to make sure they pay "full value." Why does someone in the business deserve even greater solicitude? Scripture is wonderful, but there are situations in life where one doesn't bend over backwards to accomodate someone whose interests oppose theirs.
I think that telling the dealer might be useful if you want to develop a relationship with him or her over time, and this will buy you righteous "credibility" -- but even that is a form of self-interest, masquerading as "ethics."
THEY are the experts; the collectors -- nine times out of ten -- are the sheep. The vig remains with the dealers, even if they get "taken" in this manner every now and then.
In a field in which it is oh-so-easy to get ripped, I will not lose sleep for winning one, for a change. (Indeed, in practice, I can't recall an occasion where I did "put one over" on a dealer. . . .)
"The essence of sleight of hand is distraction and misdirection. If smoeone can be convinced that he has, through his own perspicacity, divined your hidden purposes, he will not look further."
BNE...I agree TOTALLY. While I would not do this to a friend, a dealer is fair game. He is the de facto expert and should be more careful. You can quote scriptures here all you want, but it just ain't gonna cut the mustard or make me feel guilty. Business is business and the dealer is not going to point out the shortcomings of his wares to you, the collector. To the contrary, everything they have is "PQ" (an overused term that I detest and holds absolutely no meaning) when they're selling it, but bring it back in a few weeks or months and try to sell it back. After months of sitting in its PCGS, et al, holder it has mysteriously become low end.
Stick it to them, I say! They don't hesitate ripping off some newbie when they get a chance.
I pay the price all too often and wouldn't hesitate to capitalize on a dealer's ignorance or laziness. I study, read, compile reference material, review auction prices realized, and arm myself with every bit of info I can to try and stay one step ahead. I do this for MY benefit, NOT the dealer's. BTW...the dealer has access to all the same info that I do if he'll just get off his dead ass and use it.
If we all had to even the playing field for knowledge and experience then the our entire capitalistic system would crumble. From the fisherman who sells his catch to the entrepreneur who sells his services. Why should everyone share their expertise and get nothing extra for it? This is truly the way to a lazy society where the go-getters pay the way for those who have no drive. It's one thing to turn the other cheek once in a while as a good deed, but if you did this in every transaction in life, you'd have a clear conscience but wouldn't have a roof over your head or a dime for a cup of coffee. Anytime you felt you got a good deal, be prepared to pay the seller/giver back until you feel you broke even or got cheated.
I'd buy it and walk away. I had a similar thing happen. A dealer had some silver Chinese coins. I took a look at them knowing they were worth more than the $4.oo he was asking. I bought all he had. that night I placed one on Ebay and sold it for $200.
My point, if yor a dealer you should know you inventory.
Mad Marty said in his post that he got some silver halves from the bank.Shouldn`t he be taking `em back and exchanging them for clads, as the bank clearly made a mistake when they released them at face?! The bank then should get a hold of the little old lady who brought them in so she could exchange them for money to buy some dog food or prescription drugs!
A dealer once asked me if I noticed any three-legged buffalos on the bourse,to which I replied,"...no,but I saw alot of two-legged jackasses..."
I told a dealer one time about a mistake and he said if I was so sure I should just buy it .It was a 1918-D half he said was bad I told him it was real paid$50 sold it for $12,500
Hi all. Isn’t it so that a good transaction can ONLY occur when the parties “know” and are informed about what they are doing? If I profit from a transaction where I’m informed but the other party has made an error or mistake, then aren’t I taking advantage of him? Does it matter if the person is a "friend" or a "stranger?" Does integrity have boundaries?
It should be obvious that a good transaction is only worthy to be called good if it is honest and 100% on the up and up. The very heart and soul of numismatics (and true capitalism) is to keep an honestly balanced scale. Integrity lasts a lifetime while the lack of it leaves behind a trail of discouraged and demoralized participants.
I’d rather have one honest hand empty than two dishonest hands full.
One decent and kindly action towards a neighbor can bring a lifetime of good will and joy. Every man is my neighbor whether I “know” him or not. Isn’t that what real "brotherly love" is supposed to be?
Last thought: for me integrity is priceless – especially so in the very immoral times we find ourselves in. Integrity is rarer than an 1802 half dime! I’d rather emotionally invest in the RARITY of integrity than in the “common date” manipulating of another man’s ignorance or error.
Wow this is getting melodramatic. In both instances given as examples, the buyer did not know the seller, one seller does this for a living. Do we owe everyone in the world the time we have spent getting know this hobby. I think not. This is one hobby that is fairly easy to become literate in. Attorneys aside, both of these examples were entered in by people who had that opportunity. If someone shuns that opportunity then the ethics becomes moot. You can preach from the Bible all you want, but in the end we make the choices and if you choose to sell something without knowledge then either hire a professional to do so or suffer the pains of your own ignorance or laziness. People need to quit blaming others all the time and take responsibililty for themselves.
I want to thank the two of you for your willingness to re-examine people's positions (and, after all, these are only opinions/views where there isn't necessarily always a perfectly clear right or wrong) and for your courtesy in posting follow-up messages. Whether we end up agreeing about things or not, I think it's great that we can express our opinions/viewpoints in a forum such as this. Everyone can benefit and learn here. Happy holidays to all.
<< <i>Hi all. Isn’t it so that a good transaction can ONLY occur when the parties “know” and are informed about what they are doing? If I profit from a transaction where I’m informed but the other party has made an error or mistake, then aren’t I taking advantage of him? Does it matter if the person is a "friend" or a "stranger?" Does integrity have boundaries?
It should be obvious that a good transaction is only worthy to be called good if it is honest and 100% on the up and up. The very heart and soul of numismatics (and true capitalism) is to keep an honestly balanced scale. Integrity lasts a lifetime while the lack of it leaves behind a trail of discouraged and demoralized participants.
I’d rather have one honest hand empty than two dishonest hands full.
One decent and kindly action towards a neighbor can bring a lifetime of good will and joy. Every man is my neighbor whether I “know” him or not. Isn’t that what real "brotherly love" is supposed to be?
Last thought: for me integrity is priceless –
Integrity and capitalism. INTEGRITY. If said neighbor asked me,I would be glad to help him.I would volunteer my services if I thought he could use a hand.If he asked me about coins or anything else I may know more about, I will give an honest opinion, and even refer him to another dealer/knowledgable person so my "neighbor" can get a second opinion if warranted.I would tell him his proof set was worth more without the 'S'.If the "neighbor" was a coin dealer and he asked me if this proof set was worth more without the 'S', I would tell him.To me, this is integrity.
CAPITALISM and INTEGRITY. On the other "hand", if a coin dealer "neighbor";claiming to be an expert on coins and bought and sold them for a living; offered to sell me coin(s) that I think are worth more than his asking price,I will buy them with no remorse.Many times,if I feel he/she MADE a MISTAKE, I will ask for a price again, repeating strongly the price he/she quoted,and handing them the coin back and giving them a final chance to reevaluate said coin(s).Not seeing a variety or grade disparity does not,in my mind, make it a MISTAKE on their part. "You want $100 for THIS coin?" In a free market(capitalism) you owe it to yourself to know that which you are getting into.If you don`t, you should hire someone you can trust(lawyer,broker,dealer,etc.)to get you through what you seek to accomplish. It is not up to ME,in an open and free system, to make sure YOU or YOUR hired help,are up to snuff on that which you are getting involved with. It seems that more and more,in this society, that everything should be FAIR and EQUAL. Life isn`t always fair. If you are lazy and lack integrity,and expect others to do everything for you, I certainly DO NOT want to be your equal.
"The Lord helps those who help themselves."
A dealer once asked me if I noticed any three-legged buffalos on the bourse,to which I replied,"...no,but I saw alot of two-legged jackasses..."
Someone mentioned if the shoe was on the other foot: and if it was MY cherry that was being picked? Anyone who can pick a cherry-pick from me really deserves any added compensation they recieve, and I would congratulate them on their find.(Boast,Boast ) I would question the INTEGRITY of any dealer who would be MAD if they were the innocent victim of a cherry-picking that was NOT an ERROR or MISTAKE on their part.I have dealers "Jack-Up" prices on me because it is ME, and they suspect I`m cherry-ing them, even when they can`t figure it out HOW I`m cherry-ing them.Two-legged Jack-asses.
A dealer once asked me if I noticed any three-legged buffalos on the bourse,to which I replied,"...no,but I saw alot of two-legged jackasses..."
Unfortunately, outhaul is right. A dealer will rarely tell you that you've left money on the table, rarely, if ever. The buyers discovery is his alone, in this case. Knowledge is king. If you found a used car with a larger engine than described, better condition than described, better tires... Would you complain about the lower price?????
I think it depends on the situation and you'll never know until you are exactly in that situation.
Legend took a clients coin on memo and after examination discovered it was a rare variety worth tens of thousands more. They told the client, which is the right thing to do.
I've been at the blackjack table and had the dealer make a $1000 error in my favor. I told him. I've been at the table and thought maybe the dealer had made an error in my favor but wasn't 100% sure - I said nothing.
I'm certain that if the dealer was a friend, I'd tell him. If the dealer was unknown to me, it'd depend on so many variables that I couldn't state with any certainty how I'd react at that time.
The closest I ever game to an ethical dilemma such as this was during the great silver buyback of the early 1960s. I collected fifty one-dollar silver certificates and brought them to a coin dealer in New York City who at the time was paying $1.25 for each. He counted my fifty silver certificates incorrectly and came up with 51. No big deal -- just an extra 1.25. However, I immediately pointed out the error to the dealer. He said thank you. He said he appreciated that I pointed out the error. I didnt get a "reward" for my honesty but I felt my own "reward" knowing I did the right thing. I think I was 11 or 12 years old when that happened. Frankly, I never "stole" so much as a stick of gum in my life -- and I sleep better. Yes, I would tell the dealer. cheers, alan mendelson
I was talking to a dealer at a coin show in Colorado Springs last summer when Bill Fivaz walked up. He picked out a nickel from the dealers "junk box". The dealer, who had no idea who Fivaz was, quoted him $5.00. Fivaz responded, "I would rather pay you $100.00", and explained to the dealer it was a rare variety. The dealer was floored, told me it was the first time ever someone had done that. I was ecstatic when Fivaz was chosen as the Numismatist of the Year.
Thank you all who have been responding. Everyone has had some interesting insights to contribute and enlarge our understanding. I think it is when we question ourselves that we find a piece of ourselves that we never knew was there before.
I wouldn't even consider telling the dealer about a no-S proof set. These sets were mixed in with all the others and there is a small statistical chance of finding one. It's almost as though the set isn't even special until someone discovers it. Why should the dealer reap the reward for my knowledge and alertness? The only exception would be if the set were identified as a rare variety in that dealers handwriting and he just forgot. This has actually happened to me before and I did not get the coin!
<< <i>Heres one of those questions where you wonder how many are telling the truth when they say I would do the right thing! >>
He-he...I guarantee I'm telling the truth about what I would do...if the person on the other side of the deal claims to know what they are doing and has a nice variety out there for a fraction of its value and I know about such variety because of the years I spent reading and researching to learn about them...well, that person is fair game, and I wouldn't think twice (and haven't ever) about buying it at their price and walking away with it.
A minor footnote to my previous posts regarding this subject...even though I would buy a nice variety as a "normal" coin from a dealer, the last thing you will see me do is try to talk them down on the price marked on the holder. I always buy the coins I want at the full price marked because I know they are worth more, often times much more, than the price marked. If the dealer offers a discount, I take it...but never ask for it.
As the coin turns, if the person selling were unknowledged, perhaps selling an estate of a deceased relative, of course I would tell them what they have, and if I wanted the coin would offer a fair price for it...there's a difference, and I think there's a chance people are offering opinions regarding different situations. It's like apples and oranges - each situation is completely different requiring a completely different attitude and action. Dealer - shut your mouth and take advantage of the situation. Unknowledged seller who is counting on your expertice - tell them what they have and make a fair offer if you want it. In all cases everyone should come out happy.
True story:
I received a bag of cents from a man who's brother died. The cents (about $15 face) were mainly circ. wheats, a few earlier memorials. Anyhow, my job was to look through the coins and see if there was anything I wanted out of them, then to tally the value of the remainder of the lot. In the bunch of coins, I found one really nice 1951D repunched mint mark...probably a $5 coin. What I did with that coin suprised him...I knew his son was a scout, a good kid, and interested in coins. I photographed the coin, made a microphotographic collage showing the variety, printed the photo, put the coin in a flip marked with the variety number, and gave the package to the man to give to his kid. Normally I would charge $20 for such service, but this one was gratis. I wanted the kid to have something interesting as a momento of his uncle's life. Now...I could have easily just took the coin out and bought it from the guy for 2 cents, I even could have offered $5 for the coin - but what I did will last longer and be more important to the recipient. A lesson to be learned for those who are cut-throat about making a buck at anyone's expense...this hobby is about sharing - about learning. I did what I did because I may just have created another collector, it made me feel good, and I didn't need the coin anyway. If I hadn't done what I did, the coin would have gone to the first dealer at 2 cents or less, and they may or may not have found the variety...but now that kid has something special. Just chew on that for a while.
Dealers are fair game. They are in the business to buy and sell, not to hunt for varieties - not to cherrypick rolls, bags, estates, etc. They have too much on their plates to bother trying to look at every coin with a 16X loupe...and I can guarantee the majority don't care if you're cherrypicking their stock. If you make a purchase, that makes them happy. They make their profit, and you walk away with something nice to put in your collection. It's really no different from hole fillers, set builders, etc.
How about this? You go to the local Wal-Mart, go back to the toy section looking for that Treasure Hunt Hot Wheel worth $50, or that action figure from Star Wars with the oddity worth $75...do you take it to the manager and tell them they are selling the item for too little because it has a collectible value that's much higher than their retail sticker price? Heck no...what makes a coin dealer any different?
If i don't know what i have then why should i be upset if some one does and buys it at my price. someone here posted about some 1990 no s proof sets that he got from a dealer for s proof market price...shame on the dealer for not checking the estate stuff he bought....and lastly for not not checking it at the point of sale
File me with the crowd that doesn't even see an ethical question encountered.
Say you go to Walmart and see a big sign that says "16oz Coke 5cents". Do you walk back to the manager and make sure that he meant to put that sign up? Do you call all the shareholders and make sure they know the price that's being offered? Do you make sure that this is some sort of promotional campaign and that the poor, uneducated entrepreneurs are making money in other areas? No, you fill up your cart and appreciate the deal you found. Not only can you buy it for that price but BY LAW Walmart has to sell it to you at the advertised price.
With the no s mint set as others have said, it was thrown in the the others. You're not making money on the backs of others. My guess would be the dealer paid "with s" money for it. Why should he get the benefit of your detective work.
I can just see some of you guys in a job interview..."Well sir I do like what you've shown me of the company and I would like to accept your offer of $150K a year but I feel I'm really worth more like $83K. Yes sir, I wouldn't pay more than $83K for my services." Pu-lease.
Also all you people talking about fraud, here's the definition: A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain There's no deception. You told a dealer that you're interested in his merchandise, he gave you a price, you said you would be happy to buy at that price.
The only time I would consider anything of the sort being discussed here is if I was almost certain the dealer correctly identified the coin but mispriced it (his price was a factor of 10 off). Then I might think he looked in the MS64 column when pricing his MS65. Otherwise maybe he's just trying to move something that he has had in stock for a long time. Maybe he needs money for something more than I need the coin he has. I've often seen coins priced 50% too high, what's wrong with 50% too low. In this case it would depend on my mood (and a host of other factors including the attitude of the dealer).
Final word, if I start telling dealers that their prices are too low then I demand the power to tell them they are too high and force them to lower it to what I think is reasonable.
As I'm writing this, there are 86 messages in this thread. I have not read them all, so I apologize if someone else has brought this point up. The following scenario doesn't necessarily reflect my opinion. I'm simply asking the question. I have discussed this very subject with people for years.
If you find a coin in a dealers stock that is worth much more than he's asking, in this case a 1968 No S Proof Set priced as a regular 1968 PS, and you tell him, is he then obligated to go back to the person he bought it from, and then that person go back to the person they bought it from, and so on, and so on. This is of course assuming he knows who be bought it from. If not, why not.
Second scenario: You purchase a coin off eBay and then discover 2 months later that it is a rare piece, do you then go back to the seller. They sold it as a regular coin,,,,, you bought it as a regular coin. If you do go back to the seller, is there a point in time that you are no longer obligated to? 3 months? 6 months? 1 year? 10 years? If you aren't obligated to go back to the seller, then why not?
A kid in a sports memorabilia store - he waits until the dealer leaves on an errand and leaves the store in the hands of a helper who doesn't know much about cards and their value. The kid pounces having the lady pull out a 1968 Nolan Ryan rookie card which sells at that time for $1,200.00. The lady sees the price tag and thinks it's $12.00 so that's what she charges the kid for the card. Nobody can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the kid knew it was a $1,200 card and knew he was more or less stealing it due to lack of knowledge behind the counter, but that's basically what happened. Smart kid or deception and fraud? Stupid dealer or simple oversight?
The case ended up in court. I don't remember the final outcome of the case, it was over ten years ago...1990 or 1991 as I remember it. What ended up happening, however, is that the card went up for auction and the proceeds donated to charity, so neither party won. Was that right? The dealer shouldn't have left an unknowledgeable person behind the counter, and the kid shouldn't have taken advantage of the situation, so both were wrong in one way or another. So how does ethics fit into this one? BTW the kid was roughly 14 years old.
Awhile back I was in a shop plinking through the junk box on the counter. Had a bunch of dark side stuff, war nickels, etc, the usual ten to fifteen cent stuff. I saw something that interested me and asked how much he'd take for the entire box. "Twenty bucks", he said, so I paid the man. Got the box home and pulled out a Nova Eboracs in VG. I had no problem with this. I searched, I studied, I made out. The dealer? He wanted $20.00 for the lot and he got it. Done deal. Now...I didn't march back into the store and stick his face in it, but I did ask him the next time I was in if he minded people cherry-picking him. He said, "I really don't have time to do it myself. I usually look for the obvious, but hey, if you make out a couple of buck then good for you." Good for me indeed.
> The kid pounces having the lady pull out a 1968 Nolan Ryan rookie card which sells at that time for $1,200.00. I don't see the kids pouncing on the lady hoping she'll make a $1200 mistake. I see him lying ("hey can I see that card marked $12.00) but I just don't see him waiting for the owner to leave so he can hope against hope that the person left will make a mistake (without him helping with the mistake). If we misled I say he should give the card back. If he didn't mislead than I don't see how he can lose the card.
The dealer is stupid for not telling the help where the $1200 cards are kept. If I told my help one thing before I left it would be that anyone wanting something out of this cabinet better have a gold card at least.
Where do you draw the line? I'm not a big buyer or a big seller. I looked at a 1964 Kennedy today at my local dealers and he had it listed for $7.50. I thought that it was an Accented Hair Kennedy, but I wasn't positive. I posted a photo today on this forum and it was confirmed it was the AH Kennedy. Because of this and depending on the grade the difference in value could be anywhere from $25.00 and up. What do you all think? Did I screw this guy? I wanted to point out that I also bought a proof set 1955 for $80.00 which I felt may be a little high and have bought from him on several other occassions.
If the mint sends you the no-S proof set, do you send it back saying "I think you made a mistake. . . ?" What is the difference if it is a dealer, who is simply a jobber?
"The essence of sleight of hand is distraction and misdirection. If smoeone can be convinced that he has, through his own perspicacity, divined your hidden purposes, he will not look further."
How many of us who said "tell the person" would really do it? THERE is the question. I'm not so sure I would. If they price something a certain way, then they are obviously selling it at a profit, so they win in a small way and the buyer wins in a big way, and is rewarded for his knowledge. What the seller does not know won't hurt him.
If I faced this situation (and I have, once or twice), I would buy the item and keep my mouth shut as much as possible (not an easy task for me, as you probably know). However, if I got pangs of conscience, I could always contact the seller afterward and say something like,"hey, that was a really nice item you sold me, and I did very well on the deal. Here's an extra $(insert amount here) to show my appreciation." Then it's win-win. The buyer's conscience is assuaged, he's still sitting pretty, and the seller has just gotten an unexpected windfall.
Now, if I were the SELLER, and found out somebody had royally cherrypicked me because of my own shortsightedness, I would chalk it up to experience and take my medicine (although I'd probably grumble about it). Lesson learned. But if the person behaved in the manner I suggested above, and came back with a small, unexpected bonus for me, I would certainly not begrudge him the fat profit he made; after all, he wasn't obligated to come back and tell me anything! If somebody did that, I would have a much higher opinion of him.
People who behave like Bill Fivaz reportedly did, in the story above, where he paid $100 for a scarce coin the seller was unknowingly asking $5 for, are the exception to the rule. My hat is off to them. Not all of us can afford to be so magnanimous all the time, though. If Mr. Fivaz did in fact do that, then he was certainly deserving of the award(s) he later received.
Man, some of you people have ethics the size of Everest! How do you expect to ever cherry pick? I guess im unethical, because this weekend I cherry picked a local dealer. Im a bad man!
Sean J Re-elect Bush in 2004... Dont let the Socialists brainwash you.
Comments
<< <i>stujoe, you asked "Next question is: Would you then go back to the person who you bought it from and pay them what it is really worth now that you know?" Yes, I would, as silly as that might seem. >>
Doesn't seem silly at all. In fact, it is a consistancy I admire.
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Like the squeezing one says, if it's a friend, do him a square and tell him. If it were a dealer at a show, I wouldn't think twice. I'd buy the sucker if I wanted/needed it. Kudos to David Hall, who appears to agree.
I have never had a dealer say to me: "are you sure you want to pay my asking price? Look at that ding, right there." Likewise, dealers seldom volunteer that their coins may be artificially toned, or cleaned (if they think they can get away with it).
A dealer I've never met is not my "best bud" -- he's in business. Presumably the price incorporates what he or she believes to be an appropriate mark-up. I am not about to second-guess how they run their business. On eBay, the goal is to get the coin as cheaply as possible, not to inform the seller what a great coin they have and try to make sure they pay "full value." Why does someone in the business deserve even greater solicitude? Scripture is wonderful, but there are situations in life where one doesn't bend over backwards to accomodate someone whose interests oppose theirs.
I think that telling the dealer might be useful if you want to develop a relationship with him or her over time, and this will buy you righteous "credibility" -- but even that is a form of self-interest, masquerading as "ethics."
THEY are the experts; the collectors -- nine times out of ten -- are the sheep. The vig remains with the dealers, even if they get "taken" in this manner every now and then.
In a field in which it is oh-so-easy to get ripped, I will not lose sleep for winning one, for a change. (Indeed, in practice, I can't recall an occasion where I did "put one over" on a dealer. . . .)
William S. Burroughs, Cities of the Red Night
Stick it to them, I say! They don't hesitate ripping off some newbie when they get a chance.
I pay the price all too often and wouldn't hesitate to capitalize on a dealer's ignorance or laziness. I study, read, compile reference material, review auction prices realized, and arm myself with every bit of info I can to try and stay one step ahead. I do this for MY benefit, NOT the dealer's. BTW...the dealer has access to all the same info that I do if he'll just get off his dead ass and use it.
Cheers,
Bob
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>"For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
Mark 8:36 >>
Who was it that said:
"The Lord helps those who help themselves."
roadrunner
My point, if yor a dealer you should know you inventory.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
It should be obvious that a good transaction is only worthy to be called good if it is honest and 100% on the up and up. The very heart and soul of numismatics (and true capitalism) is to keep an honestly balanced scale. Integrity lasts a lifetime while the lack of it leaves behind a trail of discouraged and demoralized participants.
I’d rather have one honest hand empty than two dishonest hands full.
One decent and kindly action towards a neighbor can bring a lifetime of good will and joy. Every man is my neighbor whether I “know” him or not. Isn’t that what real "brotherly love" is supposed to be?
Last thought: for me integrity is priceless – especially so in the very immoral times we find ourselves in. Integrity is rarer than an 1802 half dime! I’d rather emotionally invest in the RARITY of integrity than in the “common date” manipulating of another man’s ignorance or error.
matteproof
I want to thank the two of you for your willingness to re-examine people's positions (and, after all, these are only opinions/views where there isn't necessarily always a perfectly clear right or wrong) and for your courtesy in posting follow-up messages. Whether we end up agreeing about things or not, I think it's great that we can express our opinions/viewpoints in a forum such as this. Everyone can benefit and learn here. Happy holidays to all.
<< <i>Hi all. Isn’t it so that a good transaction can ONLY occur when the parties “know” and are informed about what they are doing? If I profit from a transaction where I’m informed but the other party has made an error or mistake, then aren’t I taking advantage of him? Does it matter if the person is a "friend" or a "stranger?" Does integrity have boundaries?
It should be obvious that a good transaction is only worthy to be called good if it is honest and 100% on the up and up. The very heart and soul of numismatics (and true capitalism) is to keep an honestly balanced scale. Integrity lasts a lifetime while the lack of it leaves behind a trail of discouraged and demoralized participants.
I’d rather have one honest hand empty than two dishonest hands full.
One decent and kindly action towards a neighbor can bring a lifetime of good will and joy. Every man is my neighbor whether I “know” him or not. Isn’t that what real "brotherly love" is supposed to be?
Last thought: for me integrity is priceless –
Integrity and capitalism.
INTEGRITY.
If said neighbor asked me,I would be glad to help him.I would volunteer my services if I thought he could use a hand.If he asked me about coins or anything else I may know more about, I will give an honest opinion, and even refer him to another dealer/knowledgable person so my "neighbor" can get a second opinion if warranted.I would tell him his proof set was worth more without the 'S'.If the "neighbor" was a coin dealer and he asked me if this proof set was worth more without the 'S', I would tell him.To me, this is integrity.
CAPITALISM and INTEGRITY.
On the other "hand", if a coin dealer "neighbor";claiming to be an expert on coins and bought and sold them for a living; offered to sell me coin(s) that I think are worth more than his asking price,I will buy them with no remorse.Many times,if I feel he/she MADE a MISTAKE, I will ask for a price again, repeating strongly the price he/she quoted,and handing them the coin back and giving them a final chance to reevaluate said coin(s).Not seeing a variety or grade disparity does not,in my mind, make it a MISTAKE on their part.
"You want $100 for THIS coin?"
In a free market(capitalism) you owe it to yourself to know that which you are getting into.If you don`t, you should hire someone you can trust(lawyer,broker,dealer,etc.)to get you through what you seek to accomplish.
It is not up to ME,in an open and free system, to make sure YOU or YOUR hired help,are up to snuff on that which you are getting involved with.
It seems that more and more,in this society, that everything should be FAIR and EQUAL.
Life isn`t always fair.
If you are lazy and lack integrity,and expect others to do everything for you, I certainly DO NOT want to be your equal.
"The Lord helps those who help themselves."
Someone mentioned if the shoe was on the other foot: and if it was MY cherry that was being picked?
Anyone who can pick a cherry-pick from me really deserves any added compensation they recieve, and I would congratulate them on their find.(Boast,Boast
I would question the INTEGRITY of any dealer who would be MAD if they were the innocent victim of a cherry-picking that was NOT an ERROR or MISTAKE on their part.I have dealers "Jack-Up" prices on me because it is ME, and they suspect I`m cherry-ing them, even when they can`t figure it out HOW I`m cherry-ing them.Two-legged Jack-asses.
This is and continues to be a tough topic.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
If you found a used car with a larger engine than described, better condition than described, better tires... Would you complain about the lower price?????
"The more I know, the less I understand"
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i couldn't bring myself to read through the entire thread. buy the proof set and reap the reward of your numismatic knowledge.
al h.
Legend took a clients coin on memo and after examination discovered it was a rare variety worth tens of thousands more. They told the client, which is the right thing to do.
I've been at the blackjack table and had the dealer make a $1000 error in my favor. I told him. I've been at the table and thought maybe the dealer had made an error in my favor but wasn't 100% sure - I said nothing.
I'm certain that if the dealer was a friend, I'd tell him. If the dealer was unknown to me, it'd depend on so many variables that I couldn't state with any certainty how I'd react at that time.
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
My Website
"Everything I have is for sale except for my wife and my dog....and I'm not sure about one of them."
were mixed in with all the others and there is a small statistical chance of finding
one. It's almost as though the set isn't even special until someone discovers it.
Why should the dealer reap the reward for my knowledge and alertness? The
only exception would be if the set were identified as a rare variety in that dealers
handwriting and he just forgot. This has actually happened to me before and I did
not get the coin!
<< <i>Heres one of those questions where you wonder how many are telling the truth when they say I would do the right thing! >>
He-he...I guarantee I'm telling the truth about what I would do...if the person on the other side of the deal claims to know what they are doing and has a nice variety out there for a fraction of its value and I know about such variety because of the years I spent reading and researching to learn about them...well, that person is fair game, and I wouldn't think twice (and haven't ever) about buying it at their price and walking away with it.
A minor footnote to my previous posts regarding this subject...even though I would buy a nice variety as a "normal" coin from a dealer, the last thing you will see me do is try to talk them down on the price marked on the holder. I always buy the coins I want at the full price marked because I know they are worth more, often times much more, than the price marked. If the dealer offers a discount, I take it...but never ask for it.
As the coin turns, if the person selling were unknowledged, perhaps selling an estate of a deceased relative, of course I would tell them what they have, and if I wanted the coin would offer a fair price for it...there's a difference, and I think there's a chance people are offering opinions regarding different situations. It's like apples and oranges - each situation is completely different requiring a completely different attitude and action. Dealer - shut your mouth and take advantage of the situation. Unknowledged seller who is counting on your expertice - tell them what they have and make a fair offer if you want it. In all cases everyone should come out happy.
True story:
I received a bag of cents from a man who's brother died. The cents (about $15 face) were mainly circ. wheats, a few earlier memorials. Anyhow, my job was to look through the coins and see if there was anything I wanted out of them, then to tally the value of the remainder of the lot. In the bunch of coins, I found one really nice 1951D repunched mint mark...probably a $5 coin. What I did with that coin suprised him...I knew his son was a scout, a good kid, and interested in coins. I photographed the coin, made a microphotographic collage showing the variety, printed the photo, put the coin in a flip marked with the variety number, and gave the package to the man to give to his kid. Normally I would charge $20 for such service, but this one was gratis. I wanted the kid to have something interesting as a momento of his uncle's life. Now...I could have easily just took the coin out and bought it from the guy for 2 cents, I even could have offered $5 for the coin - but what I did will last longer and be more important to the recipient. A lesson to be learned for those who are cut-throat about making a buck at anyone's expense...this hobby is about sharing - about learning. I did what I did because I may just have created another collector, it made me feel good, and I didn't need the coin anyway. If I hadn't done what I did, the coin would have gone to the first dealer at 2 cents or less, and they may or may not have found the variety...but now that kid has something special. Just chew on that for a while.
Dealers are fair game. They are in the business to buy and sell, not to hunt for varieties - not to cherrypick rolls, bags, estates, etc. They have too much on their plates to bother trying to look at every coin with a 16X loupe...and I can guarantee the majority don't care if you're cherrypicking their stock. If you make a purchase, that makes them happy. They make their profit, and you walk away with something nice to put in your collection. It's really no different from hole fillers, set builders, etc.
How about this? You go to the local Wal-Mart, go back to the toy section looking for that Treasure Hunt Hot Wheel worth $50, or that action figure from Star Wars with the oddity worth $75...do you take it to the manager and tell them they are selling the item for too little because it has a collectible value that's much higher than their retail sticker price? Heck no...what makes a coin dealer any different?
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
Say you go to Walmart and see a big sign that says "16oz Coke 5cents".
Do you walk back to the manager and make sure that he meant to put that
sign up? Do you call all the shareholders and make sure they know the price
that's being offered? Do you make sure that this is some sort of promotional
campaign and that the poor, uneducated entrepreneurs are making money in
other areas? No, you fill up your cart and appreciate the deal you found. Not
only can you buy it for that price but BY LAW Walmart has to sell it to you at the
advertised price.
With the no s mint set as others have said, it was thrown in the the others.
You're not making money on the backs of others. My guess would be the dealer
paid "with s" money for it. Why should he get the benefit of your detective work.
I can just see some of you guys in a job interview..."Well sir I do like what you've
shown me of the company and I would like to accept your offer of $150K a year
but I feel I'm really worth more like $83K. Yes sir, I wouldn't pay more than $83K for
my services." Pu-lease.
Also all you people talking about fraud, here's the definition:
A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain
There's no deception. You told a dealer that you're interested in his merchandise,
he gave you a price, you said you would be happy to buy at that price.
The only time I would consider anything of the sort being discussed here is if I was
almost certain the dealer correctly identified the coin but mispriced it (his price was a factor of 10 off).
Then I might think he looked in the MS64 column when pricing his MS65. Otherwise
maybe he's just trying to move something that he has had in stock for a long time.
Maybe he needs money for something more than I need the coin he has. I've often
seen coins priced 50% too high, what's wrong with 50% too low. In this case it would
depend on my mood (and a host of other factors including the attitude of the dealer).
Final word, if I start telling dealers that their prices are too low then I demand the power
to tell them they are too high and force them to lower it to what I think is reasonable.
-KHayse
If you find a coin in a dealers stock that is worth much more than he's asking, in this case a 1968 No S Proof Set priced as a regular 1968 PS, and you tell him, is he then obligated to go back to the person he bought it from, and then that person go back to the person they bought it from, and so on, and so on. This is of course assuming he knows who be bought it from. If not, why not.
Second scenario: You purchase a coin off eBay and then discover 2 months later that it is a rare piece, do you then go back to the seller. They sold it as a regular coin,,,,, you bought it as a regular coin. If you do go back to the seller, is there a point in time that you are no longer obligated to? 3 months? 6 months? 1 year? 10 years? If you aren't obligated to go back to the seller, then why not?
A kid in a sports memorabilia store - he waits until the dealer leaves on an errand and leaves the store in the hands of a helper who doesn't know much about cards and their value. The kid pounces having the lady pull out a 1968 Nolan Ryan rookie card which sells at that time for $1,200.00. The lady sees the price tag and thinks it's $12.00 so that's what she charges the kid for the card. Nobody can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the kid knew it was a $1,200 card and knew he was more or less stealing it due to lack of knowledge behind the counter, but that's basically what happened. Smart kid or deception and fraud? Stupid dealer or simple oversight?
The case ended up in court. I don't remember the final outcome of the case, it was over ten years ago...1990 or 1991 as I remember it. What ended up happening, however, is that the card went up for auction and the proceeds donated to charity, so neither party won. Was that right? The dealer shouldn't have left an unknowledgeable person behind the counter, and the kid shouldn't have taken advantage of the situation, so both were wrong in one way or another. So how does ethics fit into this one? BTW the kid was roughly 14 years old.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
I don't see the kids pouncing on the lady hoping she'll make a $1200 mistake.
I see him lying ("hey can I see that card marked $12.00) but I just don't see him
waiting for the owner to leave so he can hope against hope that the person left
will make a mistake (without him helping with the mistake). If we misled I say he
should give the card back. If he didn't mislead than I don't see how he can lose
the card.
The dealer is stupid for not telling the help where the $1200 cards are kept.
If I told my help one thing before I left it would be that anyone wanting something
out of this cabinet better have a gold card at least.
-KHayse
Ogden
If the mint sends you the no-S proof set, do you send it back saying "I think you made a mistake. . . ?" What is the difference if it is a dealer, who is simply a jobber?
William S. Burroughs, Cities of the Red Night
If I faced this situation (and I have, once or twice), I would buy the item and keep my mouth shut as much as possible (not an easy task for me, as you probably know). However, if I got pangs of conscience, I could always contact the seller afterward and say something like,"hey, that was a really nice item you sold me, and I did very well on the deal. Here's an extra $(insert amount here) to show my appreciation." Then it's win-win. The buyer's conscience is assuaged, he's still sitting pretty, and the seller has just gotten an unexpected windfall.
Now, if I were the SELLER, and found out somebody had royally cherrypicked me because of my own shortsightedness, I would chalk it up to experience and take my medicine (although I'd probably grumble about it). Lesson learned. But if the person behaved in the manner I suggested above, and came back with a small, unexpected bonus for me, I would certainly not begrudge him the fat profit he made; after all, he wasn't obligated to come back and tell me anything! If somebody did that, I would have a much higher opinion of him.
People who behave like Bill Fivaz reportedly did, in the story above, where he paid $100 for a scarce coin the seller was unknowingly asking $5 for, are the exception to the rule. My hat is off to them. Not all of us can afford to be so magnanimous all the time, though. If Mr. Fivaz did in fact do that, then he was certainly deserving of the award(s) he later received.
What comes around goes around.
The Auction Centre
Re-elect Bush in 2004... Dont let the Socialists brainwash you.
Bush 2004
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KK 2016