Ethical question time
nwcs
Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭
We've discussed this one before, in the mid summertime. But since I read a letter in The Numismatist on this topic, I thought it would be interesting to raise the issue again.
Let's say you are at a table in a show or coin shop or whatever. And you're flipping through the 1968 proof sets. You find one without the S and the dealer didn't notice and marked it as $9. What do you do?
Or, let's say you are on ebay and you see that someone is selling a rare morgan variety but do not know it. They have a buy it now for $19.95, but the coin is worth well over $1000 because of the variety. What do you do?
Let's say you are at a table in a show or coin shop or whatever. And you're flipping through the 1968 proof sets. You find one without the S and the dealer didn't notice and marked it as $9. What do you do?
Or, let's say you are on ebay and you see that someone is selling a rare morgan variety but do not know it. They have a buy it now for $19.95, but the coin is worth well over $1000 because of the variety. What do you do?
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and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
If he's something less than your friend, you fulfill your fiduciary duty to your family and pick him off and keep your mouth shut.
adrian
Lanlord - is that lady "yours"? My posture improves and I unconsciously hold in my stomach when I see her. Great waist.
I am the dealer. The customer told me and I thanked them, but since I missed it in the first place and didn't have to pay for it I congraulated them on thier find and all were happy.
What if we were talking about a dealer going through your old box of proof sets, noticing such an item, and paying you the chump amount without pointing out the what you had?
If you could come away with the 1968 no S proof set under the circumstances described here and consider yourself ethical, I don't see how you could blame the dealer in a reverse situation.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
I have, on more than one occasion, been quoted an obviously incorrect/low price on a coin by a dealer and have let each of them know. Sure, you can rationalize and say "he's a dealer and should know what he's doing so it's his tough luck, etc." but that doesn't work for me. I'm not imposing my morality or ethics on others, but merely stating what is "right" for me.
Why would the Cherry Pickers Guide sell if everyone would alert every dealer to their every mistake. I would tell a dealer I had an established relationship with, but not a dealer I'm not familiar with. I'm guilty of the behavior noted by nwcs, I've picked up 3 or 4 SBAs Type IIs at several small shows. I even asked one dealer if $9 was the best he could do on the coin and he lowered the price by a buck.
Did I feel bad, sure, but if it wasn't going to be me then it would be someone else. And isn't that what really makes this hobby fun - finding the rare coin, die variety, toned peace dollar for a great price.
As far as it being a deception, it isn't. Deception only occurs when you are dealing with an uneducated participant. If you were buying your friend's dead grandfather's collection and you found a rare coin and told him that his collection wasn't worth much and then offered to buy it cheap. Now, you have a decpetion. A dealer who doesn't know his profession, should be more careful.
Michael
MW Fattorosi Collection
Michael
MW Fattorosi Collection
Cherrypicking someone who is not a knowledgeable coin person is not right, in my opinion. In other words, if it was my neighbor who knows nothing about coins, I would not pay him $9 for it but would tell him what it is really worth.
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I like the above statement by Frattlaw.
considering the cherrypickers guide, would you go back to a dealer and tell him you found a rare variety and pay him more for the coin? doubt it.
if the dealer found the variety I bet you he would price it becuase he found the variety.
"The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD GOD Almighty."
<< <i> If you could come away with the 1968 no S proof set under the circumstances described here and consider yourself ethical, I don't see how you could blame the dealer in a reverse situation. >>
I wouldn't blame the dealer at all because I am knowledgeable enough to have checked the set myself and, if I didn't, shame on me. I would kick myself if I found out but I wouldn't blame the dealer. I'd blame myself for being lazy, unobservant, or whatever my case might be.
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Just my two-cents (U.S.)
Cheers,
Bob
<< <i>I would also hope that someone would do the same for me if the situation were reversed, but would not necessarily count on it. >>
Next question is: Would you then go back to the person who you bought it from and pay them what it is really worth now that you know?
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Mark 8:36
Is it up to me to educate the coindealers that I frequent in my quest to actually be able to make a little money from my hobby? A resounding NO. He makes money, I make money. The whole world is happy and dancing in the streets.
*******************************************************************************
To those who don't see a distinction I would like to offer a couple of alternative scenarios to make my point. If you go to a church sponsored thrift store and you happen to see a piece of furniture that you would really like to buy because of your superior furniture knowledge you know it to be a valuable antique. The shop owners have priced it as common used furniture. Do you tell them? If you said yes...good for you, hopefully so would I. They don't know what the he** they are doing, and I would like to hedge my bets with regard to the afterlife. Now what if you see the same thing in an 'Antique' store where the owners hold themselves out to be knowledgable in the area of antiques, they hold themselves out to be buyers and sellers of rare and valuable antiques... but they've obviously missed this one piece. Do you tell them?
The distinction I'm making has to do with whether the percieved (as opposed to real) bargaining field is equal. If you go as a buyer into a coin store or show, the percieved playing field is equal. Everyone is presumed to be knowledgable about what they are buying or selling. In actuality, some participants are much more knowledgable than others, but everyone is competing under the same set of rules.
I'd also make this point. The dealer obviously did not PAY fair value for the inventory, because he's got it marked at $9. For those of you who think you should tell the dealer, let me ask this follow up question. Suppose the dealer just bought the set, and he knows who sold it to him 2 days ago. If you alert him and pay him fair value of the coin do you expect him to contact the original seller and advise them that the coin they sold him was actually worth a lot more than he paid for it. Do you expect him to share his windfall with the person who sold it to him? If so, how far back in the chain do you think the previous sellers should go. What if they can trace owners all the way back to the mint. Do we expect the first owner to share a portion of his windfall with the US Mint?
Those of you who would really inform the dealer, congratulations...and I mean it. Your a credit to the human race and you restore part of my faith in humanity. But I'm with Anaconda on this, if it ain't family, friend or business associate...I make the deal and NEVER tell the guy about what he had.
See you at the shows!!! LOL
Greg Hansen
Melbourne, FL
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
Yeah,Right.
For example, I had a dealer who got a nice lot of world sets that he didn't care about... randomly quoted prices since he wanted to get rid of them... I had no problem taking them a little cheaper than they could have gone for- his choice. As it was said, he didn't lose money on the deal, so all the better for me
A dealer should know what he has- if he doesn't someone else will... might as well be the winner...
The only time I hear about a coin on eBay that was listed by an innocent and known to be valuable is because the person who snipped it bragged about it here.
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since 8/1/6
I told him about it and he pulled it out of his case.
A couple of years later at our mini show I set up with some of my coins. I had a 1921 S marked about $1.50. It was nice but quite frankly looked like it had some help. I did mark it a little high though because it was nice.
A dealer came along (bet you can't guess the dealer) andbought it.
I later overheard him telling another dealer about the awesome 1921 S that he bought so cheap.
The fact that he bought it did kinda bother me but after hearing his remarks to the other dealer I really felt bad about for the person that was going to end up buying the coin, and getting the shaft, INMO
If the person holds themselves out to be an expert too bad. If I buy a coin from them, get an upgrade, it's just the way the game is played.
If the dealer is a friend of mine I'd tell them everytime even though I don't expect the same from them. Many of my friends say friendship is friendship and business is business and the two don't cross. I don't agree with that but accept that they feel that way. I can call them in the middle of the night if my car breaks down somewhere but if I price a rare date as a common than it's my loss.
Coinguy- I have a question for you. If you buy a coin, break it out and get an upgrade are you going to tell the person you bought it from. What's the difference between using your skills to do that and using your skills to pick off a no "S" proof set. And don't give the argument you are buying the coin and taking a chance it won't upgrade. I bet your percentages of winners is so high it isn't a factor.
Non-dealers are a different matter. I personally would never buy a mis or un attributed rare variety from a collector for a bargain price.
Auction story...At the 1978 ANA convention the auction had a 1921 Peace dollar described as "MS60 sharply struck, but cleaned." John Dannreuther and I "split" the coin, paying $225. Every major buyer saw the coin and didn't catch what we did. Kevin Lipton was the underbidder at $210.
After we bought the coin we took it to Walter Breen and got a letter of authenticity for it which stated it was a proof. We sold it the next morning to Fred Sweeny for $6500.
Did we do anything wrong???
Different story...a coin dealer in the early 1970s ran ads in the LA Times offering to buy silver. An elderly couple brought in an original roll of cherry BU 1930 Standing Liberty quarters. The dealer paid them melt for the coins. Did he do anything wrong???
Greg, great question, and who knows if they'd share the windfall, or if I'd even buy the set, but the issue to me is intent. The dealer obviously didn't intend to underpay for the no S set since he mislabeled it at $9. If I buy it because I know it is mislabeled, my intention is different.
Vam, Relayer, as for coin auctions, you're right. We all have larceny in our minds when we bid. I'll add though that in a public auction, odds are pretty great that you won't be the only one who sees the no S. If I buy a proof set run "sealed" that includes that set, it belongs to me, and I owe the seller nothing IMO. I bought it and took my chances. I just wouldn't want to buy the set after looking at it and feel bad every time I looked at it in my collection. I sold a coin on ebay once that was purchased by a dealer, (who later became a fellow board member). I sent him the wrong coin by mistake, and sent another buyer his coin. The two coins were very different values. He contacted me when he received it and informed me of my mistake. When I told him what I had done, and who the other buyer was (2000 miles away), he told me the other buyer was a customer of his, and that he would call him and arrange the exchange. I paypal'd the postage. I really appreciated his honesty, patience, and assistance. There are some good guys out there.
Mr.Hall - Just like the public auction, at the show, if everyone has the same shot, you're entitled to profit. IMO
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>"For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
Mark 8:36 >>
This post by dragon sums it all up for me. Thank you dragon.
"The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD GOD Almighty."
The bad part is when the dealers think they have something and want ten prices for it, but actually have junk...machine doubled 1955 cents they want $50 for that are worth a dime on a good day, and PCI slabed crap they want $500 for.....then they skip right over a 1911D/S cent in VF and I nab it for $6....only about two dozen of those known. That's when cherrypicking is at its best.
I have also told a few dealers at different times what I'm picking...they like to receive the education. Others simply don't care...I picked a 1942S DDO#1, RPM#1 from a dealer once, told him what it was, and he shrugged his shoulder while taking my ten spot for a two hundred dollar coin. Others know me by first name, know what I do, yet don't ask at all when I pick two dozen varieties and buy them. They make theirs, they are happy that I am getting what I want, thus everyone is happy.
I think the whole "honesty" thing is a bit much in this case...knowledge is king, and if you know more than the dealer, your gain. They are selling a coin at its market value for date and grade, and you are purchasing it just like anyone else would, whether they knew the variety was there or not.
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
One of the beauties of ebay is the opportunity for the seller to realize full value. Roughly a year ago a person listed a rare IHC variety. Several people recognized it and it went for almost 3k instead of $150. Both parties were happy.
Knowledge IS king in this racket! And you guys can BS yourselves all you want, but there are more crooked dealers out there than there are ethical ones. Just look at all those ads in your favorite rags for a start. And I don't know too many dealers that WOULDN'T jump at the chance to get your stuff for next to nothing no matter how honest and upstanding they profess to be, IMO. That's business and that's making a buck. I've seen it a million times.
Why should I expend my time and energy cherry-picking only to bring it to the attention of the guy behind the table/counter who was too damn lazy to do it himself to begin with?
Cheers,
Bob
<< <i>Why should I expend my time and energy cherry-picking only to bring it to the attention of the guy behind the table/counter who was too damn lazy to do it himself to begin with? >>
It couldn't have been better said. I spend YEARS learning and studying so I know all the nit-noids...the dealer buys and sells, that's their racket. They buy from X for X price, sell it to Y at Y price....as long as Y exceeds X, 99 out of a hundred couldn't give a crap, ragardless of what booger is hanging out of Washington's nose. That kind of attention is for the student of a series to pick out...not for the dealer who has thousands of coins a week to holder and mark, and really couldn't care less about 99% of the varieties. Why should I waste my time studying them to no end if my job is to point all the goodies out to the dealers so they can profit from what I know?
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
I recently had an experience along these lines. I was browsing Walking Liberty halves and came across a 38-D in fine-ish among a bunch of 38 - plains in 2x2's. The 38-D was labeled and priced as a plain 38. I though about it for a bit but eventually decided it was simply mislabeled so I let the dealer know.
I was pretty darn happy when the dealer told me that one just slipped by and I could have it for the marked price - about $20 below what I would consider a fair price.
I think what made the difference for me was that it seemed like an honest mistake rather than the product of my superior knowledge or patience to look through the inventory. If I’m willing to educate myself or invest the time where the dealer is not then keeping cherry picks to myself is fair game!
A friend who is not a professional dealer I would tell in any case, but any pro I’m willing to out and out rip off is someone that I probably wouldn’t be doing business with anyway.
-JamminJ
Kudos to all those bargain hunters!! We spend enough on coins that every once in awhile (and its not often) we get a break!!
Not easy friends!
To point: Homerunhall, what you did at the auction - Great Call -you guys deserve your cherry-pick.
What that dealer did to that elderly couple - WRONG.
IMHO. Joe.
Yes, I would, as silly as that might seem. Several months ago, we bought a coin from a knowledgeable client and subsequently learned it was worth more than we had realized (the date was worth a premium and we had missed that when we had made our offer). We wrote him a check for the extra value. On another occasion, we bought a PF Indian Cent from a client and weeks later, learned that it was a very rare variety, which neither of us had been aware of at the time. We wrote him a check for the difference in value - $10,000 plus!
As others have said, I do agree that whatever ethical duty we owe, is greater and different when we are doing business with a non-professional.
TheNumish, you asked "Coinguy- I have a question for you. If you buy a coin, break it out and get an upgrade are you going to tell the person you bought it from. What's the difference between using your skills to do that and using your skills to pick off a no "S" proof set. And don't give the argument you are buying the coin and taking a chance it won't upgrade. I bet your percentages of winners is so high it isn't a factor."
I would not tell the person about the upgrade in your example above but to me, that is a very different situation. In the original hypothetical, we were talking about a mistake, something that the seller had missed, not a difference of opinion about a grade on a coin. And, contrary to what you must think (based on what you said above), my "percentage of winners' isn't all that wonderful.
It's a bit hard to swallow how magnanimous some people are. I guess I should believe that they go through life paying FMV for everything.
"You are only asking $175K for that house? I won't have that, surely its worth $200K!"
"Well now obviously you aren't staying abreast of the market. Surely one can make $XX dollars on this widget. I'll pay nothing less!"
etc, etc.
Why doesn't this same magnanimity come into play when you realize a substantial profit for any other coin. It doesn't matter that YOU applied your marketing skills, be it research, market-base, timing of sale, .... Isn't it essentially the same: You made yourself aware of the full potential of a piece, when the dealer had not. Surely these ethics extend beyond identifying a "non-attributed" variety. Why does it not apply to auctions. It's got to eat at you every time you win an item for less than its FMV. And lurking in the background to place your bid at the last second; what really is the purpose of that? ANd, by God, that piece I paid through the nose for but no longer desire; well, I know it isn't really worth that amount to collectors in general, but I've got XX dollars in it, so you're just going to have to compensate me for MY really wanting it.
I could be wrong, but I feel a little bit of hypocrisy goin' on.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
The knowledge I have gained from collecting and studying over many years, is to my advantage. I have no obligation to tell someone that what they are selling is worth more than their asking price.
I buy coins and collections from individuals and I always offer a fair price.
Dealers are a different story.
Dealers have no business being in business if they don't know their business. They're fair game.
When I was young and lacking knowledge in this field, I was cheated by dealers. None ever came back and said they were sorry they beat me.
Ray
I concede. I went off the deep end and apologize. I guess this issue is close to my heart, as I spend a great deal of time, effort, research and money at locating un-attributed, un-recognized or otherwise undiscovered varieties. To me, it is one of the benefits of numismatic study and a valid and recognized collecting discipline (cherrypickin')and I guess I got downright defensive.
Thanks for callin' me on that.
If this was a delaer I did know, and particularly had a good relationship, I would handle it a bit differently. Because I know my two local shop owners so well, my dialouge would go something like this:
How much?
15.00.
What have you got in it?
fill in amount
how about we do this? SInce you don't have much in it, let me pay you the difference between the common set and the rare set, since you must have overlooked the fact that this is the rare set.
Both the dealer and I are going to be happy guys - my honestly is reconfirmed to him, and I picked up a nice find at a bargain price.