1797 Bust Dollar with counterstamp

TheNumish

One thing I collect are foreign coins with counterstamps. Here is a US coin I'm going to put in my collection I bought today. It's a 1797 Bust Dollar counterstamped M. Mille. I wonder who this person was, why they did this and how the coin was used. I don't think it's listed in the counterstamp book. The placement of the hole is in a strange place but think it was put there for the purpose the coin was used for. Any thoughts how this coin was used?

lordmarcovan

While I doubt it's in the Rulau book, either, I would venture a guess that M. Mille was a merchant of some sort, in the early 19th century, and judging from the name (which is French-sounding), I'd take a wild guess that he was from New Orleans. Or Paris.

Mind you, this is all idle speculation and nothing but hot air.

The placement of the hole is not so unusual. Piercing at the 12:00 position was far more common, but holes occur in a variety of shapes, sizes, and positions. It was pretty common practice, and I think holed coins are overlooked as collectibles. Sometimes a tiny li'l hole in an otherwise beautiful coin can hardly affect its eye appeal.

Besides, "Holey" coins look snazzy on a vest. Or hat.



I don't have a holed Bust dollar yet, though I have some nice pieces (particularly on my hat, which is all gold coins). Everything on my vest is over 100 years old, and, of course, holed. But you might have seen it before.

Holed coins were used as ornaments, watch fobs, washers, and so on. Sometimes the hole was for practical use, like carrying coins on a string, or sewing them into clothing. I read somewhere that Civil War soldiers who had any silver would hole the coins and sew them into their uniforms so that they wouldn't "clink" while they marched. Certainly the finds I have made with my detector bears this out. Over half of the pre-Civil war silver coins I find with the detector here (on old plantation sites like the one in the picture) are holed. Sometimes the piercing was done with one of the old square-headed nails, resulting in a rectangular hole. I have a 1730's British halfpenny like that.

I have a nice EF-AUish counterstamped Trade dollar (lower left side of the pic, my right-hand side on the vest- the other big silver piece next to it is a counterstamped 1728 French ecu.) Some of the large cents on the back of my vest are counterstamped, also. If you ever decide to part with that cool dollar, let me know. That's a great piece you have, there. I'm envious.

EVillageProwler

I think ``M.Mille'' referred to a value. I think MILLE was a denomination, much like our DOLLAR. And, M probably means THOUSAND. So, I would guess 1 thousand milles...

EVP

TheNumish

A friend was telling me that on whaleing ships they would nail coins to the mast and would give them out to people for things like seeing the first whale, getting the biggest whale, getting the first whale etc., etc. He told me once he bought a whole purse full of these coins that a whaler saved. Though a bleeding heart liberal that hugs trees at every opportunity I would have loved to own that deal. It's history that is still alive.

TheNumish

EVP- I thought about that but what country would have used that? I looked in the Krause Coin Denomination index and didn't see anything for Mille.

keithdagen

I think EVP is right. Spanish dollars were referred to as Milled Dollars, and were more common in the US as legal tender at the time than the US dollars.

lordmarcovan

I thought about the "Mille = 1,000" angle, too. But I don't think that's it. While that is certainly possible, I am inclined to the merchant counterstamp.

(It is entirely possible I will be proven wrong later).

jmp81

Here is another one with the same counterstamp.. I also think the stamp is of French origin. Oops, just realized it is the same coin. Sorry.

keithdagen

Jackie,

It's the same piece Jay's referring to.

agentjim007

W. Carner has been trying to sell that forever. He bought it off e-bay for around $500 (and I thought he was nuts for paying that). Has attempted to sell it at $750 many times, $950 a couple times now it looks like he just trying to get out of it. Unless you really want it and don't mind being buried stay away.

TheNumish

I already bought it. He just hasn't had a chance to end the auction. I really don't care if I paid too much. Ask anyone who knows me and they will tell you I'm a very careful buyer so if I get stupid every once in a while I won't lose any sleep. In fact, I was stupid twice at the show for coins I plan to keep. I bought an 1885-CC Morgan $1 in fine for $240.

So agentjim007, have you ever overpaid for anything you liked and just didn't care or should I just put the dunce cap back on and sit in the corner. Haven't had to do that for a few weeks now so I'm due.

agentjim007

Yes, I often pay too much for stuff and I've done it several times lately. Sometimes its what you have to do. Enjoy the coin.

JimD

The Milled in Spanish Dollars refered to the process not a monitary value. The term originated when the Spanish started producing coinage with screw press technology as a replacement for the Spanish cobbs.

Gemini

I checked three resources for your counterstamp and came up with nothing.
I will keep it on file in my memory bank though.

BillJones

Hi "The Numish"

If it makes you feel any better the 1885-CC in clean Fine condition is a MAJOR RARITY. Most all of them are MS, and there are very few circulated examples. That's why the coin is so expensive in the circulated grades with no price spread.

BTW if one were to poll a large sample of advanced collectors, a hole would be viewed as the worst kind of damage. One should avoid paying big bucks for holed coins. The only way to really make them marketable again is have them plugged and re-engraved. That's expensive if you have it done right.

About the only places were holes are acceptable in numismatics is for coins struck on perforated planchets and 19th century political tokens and medalets that were holed for suspension (the catalogers’ short hand is jfs.).