Who was it here that spent $800.00+ on a 1982 Washington Commemorative half? Oh yeah, I guess it did sorta have cool toning... Oh- and WHO here spent $500.00+ (somewhat guessing, but the ask price is now $750.00 on their eBay store) on a 1964 PCGS MS64 ($7.00 coin, wholesale) Kennedy!? Ok, you got me- it too has some kind of what-some-would-refer-to-as "monsterous color on it. ??
Actually I suspect it was significantly more than $800.
Anaconda, Moderns are cool because they're so perfect... Give me a Proof 70 Kennedy any day of the week...
You're fitting my "generalizing moderns by the PR70 extreme example" nicely. Take a look at some 1972-P Ike dollars, for example. Perfect is not the word that comes to mind.
Just a footnote, but when was the last time any of you leathery old advisors overpaid for a coin? LOL I mean, how good could your advice be? Aren't you all paying more than face value for old change? Everyone selling classics for 200% greysheet is interested in saving newbies. When was the last time a newbie paid $2000 for a modern? BTW- If any of you know, do you know how i can contact them?
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Are you referring to this modern commem that I bought and then sold at a profit to two dealers?
(How many other moderns can you specifically recall in your mind's eye??)
With regard to newbies: there are, generally three kinds of people; Activists, conformists and escapists. Activists want to change the world. It's like peeing in the ocean to watch it rise. Conformists hand themselves over to the masses. Escapists. Well, that's me.
I figured the snake won. I did a google search awhile back for "Anaconda natural enemy" (that one still cracks up my wife everytime she does a search starting with "A" and the drop down window shows "Anaconda natural enemy") and found out the only natural enemy to the Anaconda is man, come to think of it I'm a man ( at least I play one in real life)
Some of you modern collectors might find that you get more respect if you learn to pronounce the word the way that the limp-wristed interior designors do. It's prononced "Mow Dairn"
I saw that Washington Half at the TNA coin show last year. GSAGuy had just gotten it from the ebay auction. I don't know how that coin toned like that but I don't think it was natural. Don't know if it really matters. The coin is amazing.
TheNumish: I don't know how that coin toned like that.......It is a sulfur containing compound. I saw it on Ebay once with a complete explanation on how to AT coins and a bunch of examples with the exact same colors. It is like advanced finger painting for adults. Then if you can find someone to buy your nice AT works of art... Your in business.
Nothing wrong with a Classic guy crossing over to the Modern side on occassion. Just know though that your act is noted and remembered when it appears, down the road, Moderns are being bashed by you.
Has anyone yet defined the modern and the classic. A 1969 coin is over 30 years old and thats a lot different that a 2001 state quarter. Whenever the CvM debate appears each group looks at the extreme to make thier point. Lets try to find areas that we agree. D Bowers is a top Numismatist and I doubt if he made any reference to paying a dollar for the the highest grade 1969 anything. Gem is defined as MS65 and you can get any lincoln minted in the last 30 years for 5 bucks or less. So lets stop trying to tweak the facts to create an arguement. Im sure he was much more in reference to the 2-3 year old coins that are selling for hundreds of $$.
David can tell a good coin and a good deal when he sees one just like I can tell a BS artist when he tries to start an arguement using false facts.
Has anyone yet defined the modern and the classic.
hey coyn
the definition hinges on the coin design for me. modern is any coin which ceases to use a representation of liberty and instead depicts an actual historical person. from that perspective, the "modern era" began with the introduction of the lincoln cent in 1909 and it completely dominated our coins when they stopped making those beautiful walkers. commemeratives don't count because by their nature they should depict an actual person/event. it follows that classic coinage uses designs which are representative of liberty.
I have no problem with moderns, as long as my son isn't spending too much of my money on them.
It's ideal if the buyer knows the risks. Coins are risky. Moderns are turbo risky but if it's just a hobby, and the buyer is savy, moderns are cool.
The moderns I buy are usually about 100 times sheet, and for a good reason -- it's because they're not just moderns. They're monster moderns. So, the moderns I buy really aren't moderns.
I hope anything I've said hasn't been construed as me looking down my nose at people who buy modern coinage. Anyone can collect anything they want. My Mom occasionally buys mint postage stamps at the post office simply because she likes them. My Mom can do no wrong. She can confirm that.
I must confess, though, that I do like to go fishing, using modern bashing as bait. And, as we all know, a wee bit of truth mixed in with the tease makes the tease all the more effective. So, bluntly put, I think if you're going to spend $500 a month on coins, you should try to develop an appetite for classic circulated (pre 1938 or thereabouts, preferably pre-1836) coinage, if at all possible. If no appetite is forthcoming, please feel free to squander your money on anything you want.
your reference to "risk" with regard to moderns is a good point and probably the perspective most so-called bashers are really looking at when they caution. most of the classic coinage has had the risk of a population explosion affecting value removed by the passage of time and are chiefly affected by demand. i recently purchased an old price catalog, i think it's from 1946, because i was interested in seeing how morgans were priced before the end of siver coinage and prior to most of the GSA releases. it should be interesting to see the values on all the "keys" in each series with a half century of hindsight.
This is why -- one of these days -- I will learn not to debate something with our resident lawyers. That's better left to the courtroom and the benefit of a judge to slap 'em upside the head when necessary.
More correctly, you're seeing two super coins. Naturally it's a bit shocking to a darksider such as yourself.
(I was using that coin as my icon when I sold it, then CarolJ cut us off from uploading new icons so I kept using it. Now I'm back to a coin I actually own.)
Shiroh- I know you DarkSiders have a tough time with U.S. Moderns, so here's one suggestion on how to tell all those "Gosh-darn,-all-those-Ikes-sure-enough-look-the-same" dollars: Check the DATE. The U.S. Mint was kind enough to change the date each year (but don't be looking for any 1975's). The Mint was even cool enough to place TWO dates on the 1976's making it even EASIER to spot these from the 1974's.
If I buy a modern, any premium that I would pay towards a modern is because I like the coin, not because I like the pop number of that coin. I will never pay premium for a modern coin just because it is at the top of the pop charts.
OK I am convinced! I am going to crack out my 1979P PCGS MS68 SBA$ and spend it tomorrow. Obviously in a hundred years no one will think there is any difference between my MS68 and all the beat up scarred MS SBA's in mint sets.
Year 2102:
Current thinking
Over 300 year old coins(1790's) in incredibly well preserved condition... Really cool!!!
Over 200 year old coins(1890's) in incredibly well preserved condition.... Really Cool!!
Over 100 year old coins(1990's).... Who cares?
Does this really make sense to anyone?
I guess it doesn't matter. It has always happened. The reason old things in beautiful condition are always prized is because no one ever thinks to save the common everday item. All those record players from the thirties are a great example. I mean really who would bother to keep one of those in pristine condition for their grandchildren? No one! That is why they end up being so valuable.
No one ever thinks common items will be worth anything. They use them and throw them away when they break. The Modern coins of today are no different. The majority will never preserve the present and the past will therfore be thinly preserved and prized by the future. It does not matter if we are talking coins or Hot Wheels it is all the same.
Last thought; What do you think is more likely? That it will be discovered that a certain Bust dollar is actually more rare then believed or that some modern was actually not saved in any quantity in MS condition? Which one do you think you could make more money on today if you were a savy collector? Not that collecting is about making money but all these warnings are about how you are going to lose money. I collect both moderns and classics, but the moderns I collected 6 years ago have made me a lot more than the classics.....Just my experience, not that I was looking to make money. I have always been a collector first.
Interesting thread; but the fact of the matter is that Bowers is dead wrong on this point. It boils down to these FACTS!!!
1. There are rarities among both moderns and classics. 2. There are bargains among both moderns and classics. 3. There are ripoffs among both moderns and classics. 4. I like both moderns and classics. 5. I collect both moderns and classics. 6. Collect what you enjoy!!! 7. If someone believes that moderns are a ripoff, please donate your PCGS-MS67 Sac dollars to me. 8. If someone believes most classics are cleaned and altered, please donate your corroded 1794 cent to me. 9. Why are we having this discussion if the above points make so much sense. 10.Accugrade still sucks!!
But there you go comparing apples and oranges again. You take a really great year for a classic (1794) and compare it to an ultramodern which may or may not prove to be a good year (2001). Why not compare it to some really great moderns. Then again, those 2001 nickels are neat!
In a hundred years 2001 may be considered the most important year in history. The year THE TERROR began, or maybe it will fade into obscurity. I doubt many people alive in 1776 thought that was an important year. History becomes clear as time goes by.
Anaconda; Your coin is a bit corroded and seems to have a bit of wear. Too bad no one was collecting MODERNS back then.
Your "in 100 years" is a wonderful example. Right now, none of your SBA's are worth more than $1 to me. And they are only worth that much because the US say they are. The key to your 100 year arguement for me is that, I probably will not be here in 100 years, so if the coin isn't going to be neat for 100 years, why should I change my opinion of it. (If I lived 100 more years, I still woudn't like them).
There will still be thousands of these moderns saved in Mint State, many more than any of the "classics" had saved. Just because I don't feel that they are worth any more in MS68 than in MS65 doesn't mean you shouldn't want them. Ultra condition rarity will never be the same as true rarity "to me" and nothing any one has ever said has given me any reason to change that opinion.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
Shiroh- I know you DarkSiders have a tough time with U.S. Moderns, so here's one suggestion on how to tell all those "Gosh-darn,-all-those-Ikes-sure-enough-look-the-same" dollars: Check the DATE. The U.S. Mint was kind enough to change the date each year (but don't be looking for any 1975's). The Mint was even cool enough to place TWO dates on the 1976's making it even EASIER to spot these from the 1974's.
I find it interesting that this thread starts out bashing classics, all the high IQ bashers leave and the classic lovers stay and have a party taunting the modern dudes.
(Relax, relax. In through your nose, out through your mouth. There, there. Much better. No one in their right mind thinks that one coin is cooler than another just because it was made in a particular year. I mean, compare the Capped Bust Half series to the magnificent State Quarter series or the ever popular Ike series. They're just the same and the same kind of people collect them. Why I was just over at Edward Willy Woodward's mobile home where he showed me his collection of Uncirculated Bust Dollars. They were Ok. And then I visited the Queen of England and she showed me her collection of proof Kennedys. Now that was a collection.......)
adrian Master Baiter (and for those of you with a good sense of humor, please, strike me hard....yeah baby! HARDER! OH YES! YES! YES!)
Anaconda: I am glad some poor sap saved that nice looking lady from a brutal life in circulation. I bet he didn't make any money on it in his lifetime and someone probably made fun of him for saving pocket change. So it goes for people that collect moderns.
Jim -- Well, that might be true. But, truth be told, I've lived more than most already.
Take my wife for example. Her motto is Carpe PM - seize the afternoon. By the time she's up I've already put in a full day.
Back to coins. Everyone should collect whatever they like and can afford. Not everyone can afford expensive coins. That's why moderns are ok - you can buy them by the ton for not much money. Just make sure your mobile home in on sturdy blocks.
"Anaconda: I am glad some poor sap saved that nice looking lady from a brutal life in circulation. I bet he didn't make any money on it in his lifetime and someone probably made fun of him for saving pocket change. So it goes for people that collect moderns"
Like spending money you don't have on things you don't need to impress people you'll never know.
DRG you make a good point about the guy that saved the 1836 Bust half or the guy that saved the 1794 Cent. He saved them without the payoff. Why he saved it will never be known. What I do know is that if the mentality then was like it is to day, that is to save those coins in mass amounts like the moderns are being saved those coins today would probably be as valuable as an 1883 No Cent 5C. Now that I think about it people in 1883 were thinking a bit like the modern collectors.
My mobile home is on very sturdy blocks thank you, and the old Maytag on my porch also doubles as an excellent coin vault as well as a secure storage area for my chewing tobacco and bait.
What I do know is that if the mentality then was like it is to day, that is to save those coins in mass amounts like the moderns are being saved those coins today would probably be as valuable as an 1883 No Cent 5C. Now that I think about it people in 1883 were thinking a bit like the modern collectors.
Ouch! So the bags of 2002-D half dollars I ordered won't triple my money in 2 months?
<< <i>My mobile home is on very sturdy blocks thank you, and the old Maytag on my porch also doubles as an excellent coin vault as well as a secure storage area for my chewing tobacco and bait. >>
You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
shirohniichan: If you find one minted on a 25c planchet like the 1999P SBA$ I recently found you can do a lot better then triple your money. Or you can just spend it, afterall it is just pocket change.
"My mobile home is on very sturdy blocks thank you, and the old Maytag on my porch also doubles as an excellent coin vault as well as a secure storage area for my chewing tobacco and bait."
Well from a newbie, still not sure by varying definitions even on this board what constitutes a modern or classic I live by a very useful piece of advice. "You`s pays you money, you`s takes your chances.
Comments
No, I take that back. This is a coin board.
anaconda
snake
Hmmm? Anyone?!
peacockcoins
Anaconda, Moderns are cool because they're so perfect... Give me a Proof 70 Kennedy any day of the week...
You're fitting my "generalizing moderns by the PR70 extreme example" nicely.
Just a footnote, but when was the last time any of you leathery old advisors overpaid for a coin? LOL I mean, how good could your advice be? Aren't you all paying more than face value for old change?
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
(How many other moderns can you specifically recall in your mind's eye??)
With regard to newbies: there are, generally three kinds of people; Activists, conformists and escapists. Activists want to change the world. It's like peeing in the ocean to watch it rise. Conformists hand themselves over to the masses. Escapists. Well, that's me.
adrian
and the Kennedy....
Why don't you put all of the information into a thread called "Blowing the cover on artificial toning"?
peacockcoins
David can tell a good coin and a good deal when he sees one just like I can tell a BS artist when he tries to start an arguement using false facts.
hey coyn
the definition hinges on the coin design for me. modern is any coin which ceases to use a representation of liberty and instead depicts an actual historical person. from that perspective, the "modern era" began with the introduction of the lincoln cent in 1909 and it completely dominated our coins when they stopped making those beautiful walkers. commemeratives don't count because by their nature they should depict an actual person/event. it follows that classic coinage uses designs which are representative of liberty.
al h.
It's ideal if the buyer knows the risks. Coins are risky. Moderns are turbo risky but if it's just a hobby, and the buyer is savy, moderns are cool.
The moderns I buy are usually about 100 times sheet, and for a good reason -- it's because they're not just moderns. They're monster moderns. So, the moderns I buy really aren't moderns.
I hope anything I've said hasn't been construed as me looking down my nose at people who buy modern coinage. Anyone can collect anything they want. My Mom occasionally buys mint postage stamps at the post office simply because she likes them. My Mom can do no wrong. She can confirm that.
I must confess, though, that I do like to go fishing, using modern bashing as bait. And, as we all know, a wee bit of truth mixed in with the tease makes the tease all the more effective. So, bluntly put, I think if you're going to spend $500 a month on coins, you should try to develop an appetite for classic circulated (pre 1938 or thereabouts, preferably pre-1836) coinage, if at all possible. If no appetite is forthcoming, please feel free to squander your money on anything you want.
adrian
peacockcoins
So, the moderns I buy really aren't moderns.
ANACONDA Been dipping into braddicks Kool Aide.
<< <i>ANACONDA said So, the moderns I buy really aren't moderns. ANACONDA Been dipping into braddicks Kool Aide.
Spiked?
peacockcoins
your reference to "risk" with regard to moderns is a good point and probably the perspective most so-called bashers are really looking at when they caution. most of the classic coinage has had the risk of a population explosion affecting value removed by the passage of time and are chiefly affected by demand. i recently purchased an old price catalog, i think it's from 1946, because i was interested in seeing how morgans were priced before the end of siver coinage and prior to most of the GSA releases. it should be interesting to see the values on all the "keys" in each series with a half century of hindsight.
al h.
This is why -- one of these days -- I will learn not to debate something with our resident lawyers. That's better left to the courtroom and the benefit of a judge to slap 'em upside the head when necessary.
peacockcoins
I'm seeing two supercoins! What's going on here?!
Obscurum per obscurius
(I was using that coin as my icon when I sold it, then CarolJ cut us off from uploading new icons so I kept using it. Now I'm back to a coin I actually own.)
Obscurum per obscurius
peacockcoins
Year 2102:
Current thinking
Over 300 year old coins(1790's) in incredibly well preserved condition... Really cool!!!
Over 200 year old coins(1890's) in incredibly well preserved condition.... Really Cool!!
Over 100 year old coins(1990's).... Who cares?
Does this really make sense to anyone?
I guess it doesn't matter. It has always happened. The reason old things in beautiful condition are always prized is because no one ever thinks to save the common everday item. All those record players from the thirties are a great example. I mean really who would bother to keep one of those in pristine condition for their grandchildren? No one! That is why they end up being so valuable.
No one ever thinks common items will be worth anything. They use them and throw them away when they break. The Modern coins of today are no different. The majority will never preserve the present and the past will therfore be thinly preserved and prized by the future. It does not matter if we are talking coins or Hot Wheels it is all the same.
Last thought; What do you think is more likely? That it will be discovered that a certain Bust dollar is actually more rare then believed or that some modern was actually not saved in any quantity in MS condition? Which one do you think you could make more money on today if you were a savy collector? Not that collecting is about making money but all these warnings are about how you are going to lose money. I collect both moderns and classics, but the moderns I collected 6 years ago have made me a lot more than the classics.....Just my experience, not that I was looking to make money. I have always been a collector first.
to these FACTS!!!
1. There are rarities among both moderns and classics.
2. There are bargains among both moderns and classics.
3. There are ripoffs among both moderns and classics.
4. I like both moderns and classics.
5. I collect both moderns and classics.
6. Collect what you enjoy!!!
7. If someone believes that moderns are a ripoff, please donate your PCGS-MS67 Sac dollars to me.
8. If someone believes most classics are cleaned and altered, please donate your corroded 1794 cent
to me.
9. Why are we having this discussion if the above points make so much sense.
10.Accugrade still sucks!!
Enjoy the hobby,
Brian.
"3. There are ripoffs among both moderns and classics."
Which classic do you think is a ripoff?
a
adrian
But there you go comparing apples and oranges again. You take a really great year
for a classic (1794) and compare it to an ultramodern which may or may not prove to
be a good year (2001). Why not compare it to some really great moderns. Then again,
those 2001 nickels are neat!
Anaconda; Your coin is a bit corroded and seems to have a bit of wear. Too bad no one was collecting MODERNS back then.
There will still be thousands of these moderns saved in Mint State, many more than any of the "classics" had saved. Just because I don't feel that they are worth any more in MS68 than in MS65 doesn't mean you shouldn't want them. Ultra condition rarity will never be the same as true rarity "to me" and nothing any one has ever said has given me any reason to change that opinion.
If you've seen one ugly Ike, you've seen 'em all.
Obscurum per obscurius
(Relax, relax. In through your nose, out through your mouth. There, there. Much better. No one in their right mind thinks that one coin is cooler than another just because it was made in a particular year. I mean, compare the Capped Bust Half series to the magnificent State Quarter series or the ever popular Ike series. They're just the same and the same kind of people collect them. Why I was just over at Edward Willy Woodward's mobile home where he showed me his collection of Uncirculated Bust Dollars. They were Ok. And then I visited the Queen of England and she showed me her collection of proof Kennedys. Now that was a collection.......)
adrian
Master Baiter
(and for those of you with a good sense of humor, please, strike me hard....yeah baby! HARDER! OH YES! YES! YES!)
In one hundred years the only thing you'll be thinking about will be the location of a fresh Depends.
Take my wife for example. Her motto is Carpe PM - seize the afternoon. By the time she's up I've already put in a full day.
Back to coins. Everyone should collect whatever they like and can afford. Not everyone can afford expensive coins. That's why moderns are ok - you can buy them by the ton for not much money. Just make sure your mobile home in on sturdy blocks.
adrian
Like spending money you don't have on things you don't need to impress people you'll never know.
adrian
Ouch! So the bags of 2002-D half dollars I ordered won't triple my money in 2 months?
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>My mobile home is on very sturdy blocks thank you, and the old Maytag on my porch also doubles as an excellent coin vault as well as a secure storage area for my chewing tobacco and bait. >>
Good one -- nuthin' but net.
DRG - tiny but cool coin.
adrian