Classic bashing... (text added 9:35)
cladking
Posts: 28,651 ✭✭✭✭✭
This has been pointed out many times before, but why is it that when the
slabbing services started and Morgan dollars were all the rage that no one
warned newbies or anyone else that few coins had been graded yet and
that as the populations grew there would be a concommitent collapse. In
the November 25 Coin World Q David Bowers again warns that populations
on the moderns will continue to grow but the old rare coins will always be
old rare coins. This is becoming a near weekly warning to newbies that they
are likely to lose money if they buy such coins. Humorously he goes on to say
that one may need to buy gem specimens of numerous modern cents for less
than a dollar to complete a Lincoln collection. I definitely need to find out where
he's buying his 60's and 70's gem Lincolns for less than a dollar. He really needs
get into the business, he could mark up his coins 100 fold and make a killing.
It would hardly take much effort to come up with dozens of equally sound reasons
to avoid the classic coins. The reason this isn't being done is that the bashing has
always worked only one way. Moderns get bashed. They get bashed because
many collectors have an emotional reaction to them. They get bashed because
many collectors got burned on the BU silver rolls when they were current and then
crashed in 1965. They get bashed because they are new and represent change.
They get bashed because some collectors feel they've already missed the boat. They
get bashed because their collectors tend to be easy targets since they are new and
less knowledgeable than other collectors. And they get bashed because it just gulls
some people that coins they've spent for years and were made in the many quadrillions may
not be as common as blue in the sea.
So if it sometimes seems as though modern collectors are thin skinned, try to remember
that it may be from having a few layers flailed off.
edited to add text. edited to amend title.
slabbing services started and Morgan dollars were all the rage that no one
warned newbies or anyone else that few coins had been graded yet and
that as the populations grew there would be a concommitent collapse. In
the November 25 Coin World Q David Bowers again warns that populations
on the moderns will continue to grow but the old rare coins will always be
old rare coins. This is becoming a near weekly warning to newbies that they
are likely to lose money if they buy such coins. Humorously he goes on to say
that one may need to buy gem specimens of numerous modern cents for less
than a dollar to complete a Lincoln collection. I definitely need to find out where
he's buying his 60's and 70's gem Lincolns for less than a dollar. He really needs
get into the business, he could mark up his coins 100 fold and make a killing.
It would hardly take much effort to come up with dozens of equally sound reasons
to avoid the classic coins. The reason this isn't being done is that the bashing has
always worked only one way. Moderns get bashed. They get bashed because
many collectors have an emotional reaction to them. They get bashed because
many collectors got burned on the BU silver rolls when they were current and then
crashed in 1965. They get bashed because they are new and represent change.
They get bashed because some collectors feel they've already missed the boat. They
get bashed because their collectors tend to be easy targets since they are new and
less knowledgeable than other collectors. And they get bashed because it just gulls
some people that coins they've spent for years and were made in the many quadrillions may
not be as common as blue in the sea.
So if it sometimes seems as though modern collectors are thin skinned, try to remember
that it may be from having a few layers flailed off.
edited to add text. edited to amend title.
Tempus fugit.
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and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I took alot of ribbing about collecting 1800's English ironstone china for 40 years - "what's that", most would say...now that Martha Stewart is promoting it, you can't find it anymore....costs up to $1400 per item....stick with what you believe in....the rest will catch on some day!
<< <i>It would hardly take much effort to come up with dozens of equally sound reasons
to avoid the classic coins. >>
if it would be that easy, why were there only reasons to bash moderns listed?
just curious.
z
I see no reason to try to disuade someone from persuing his dreams. There
can be no gain to me or anyone from pointing out possible pitfalls in the classics.
Apparently most feel the same way.
I can't speak for anyone else, so I won't.
I can speak what I think.
So,
If low pop (1-3) coins hold their value, great. But what happens when a pop 1 coin that's been selling for a few hundred or a few thousand gets about 10 more added to the grade level? Will the prices hold? What about 30 more? There are thousands upon thousands of coins yet to be searched, in bags and rolls. Who knows what's there.
That would be my message to newbies. Not unlike that of Bowers, be careful.
I'm merely observing that this is the first time that these warnings have taken up large
segments of all media involving coins; that Q David Bowers is turning his weekly column
into a warning for newbies; that these warnings are obviously emotional in nature and
usually accompanied by inaccuracies about modern coins; that these warning never ex-
isted at all until people started getting interested in moderns.
Go back and look at some of the reasons cited for bashing moderns. Not one of them
constitutes a contributing reason to bash moderns much less a sufficient one.
I haven't read your post, but I guess it's a moderns vs classics post...
Anyway, I think one of the fears that classics collectors have with paying big money for moderns is that we're not quiet sure how stable the pops are for those coins. Some issues are fairly obvious, like an 1969 25c in gem, but many others are not.
Also, classics collectors rarely have to worry about the 69 vs 70 debate. They don't have to learn how to tell the difference because there is no 69 or 70 classics material out there. But, this is applicable to the moderns market, yet the criteria for 69 vs 70 are still a moving target.
Finally, I think there is an emotional aspect as well. There is no one alive who can remember spending a bust dollar as a youth. It is something wild and special to us. Our current coinage has been with us for so long that it's become played out. And, many of them were/are poorly made. For many, it is difficult to have much affection for coinage that is that familiar to us and yet so unattractive.
I am speaking in generalities. There are, of course, classics collectors who simply are butt-holes!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>if it would be that easy, why were there only reasons to bash moderns listed? >>
Newbies, please avoid the so-called 'classics'. Unless you are very experienced in coin grading, you will likely get burned paying large sums of money for coins that wind up being harshly cleaned, damaged, or even counterfeit. Indeed, all of these problems run rampant with the 'classics'. If you think buying slabbed coins will protect you from this, think again. Even the experts can and do often make mistakes, slabbing coins that should have been bodybagged and vice versa. This problem, in fact, has been a constant source of complaint and criticisms from this board as well as many others.
You will find it tough to complete satisfactory sets when dealing in 'classic' coins as well, not just because they are scarcer but also because most of them were circulated, and the nicest examples sit locked up in long term collections. And some of those collections are considered an investment! There is no evidence that 'classic' coinage provides a better rate of return than modern coins, but only time will tell.
If you're buying coins as an investment you're going to get burned no matter what you buy anyway, so I really don't see what is the big squabble about pop top moderns being not-so-scarce. Seriously though, many classic boosters like to point out that the top of the pop reports may double or triple, as though this were a fact. Who knows? But I'll tell you that most of the people who are making this point aren't even interested in moderns and so they are probably the LEAST qualified people to make this presumption.
Furthermore, I believe you should avoid 'classics' because as I've stated, a much higher percentage of them are locked away in collections. Moderns circulate more and people can see what's out there. Who knows what happens when someone dies and the world finds out there's a huge collection of coin 'X' out there. I am sure there are massive hoards of coins out there (especially overseas) just waiting to be discovered again. And people are worried about moderns being destabalized by thirty of coin X being graded at such and such a level.
OK Look, just collect whatever it is you like and ignore the critics. They are usually the folks who stand to gain the most by dissuading you from grading whatever it is they are bashing. And don't collect as a long term investment vehicle, there are much sounder places for your money. Just my two cents.
Bash..to strike violently...to injure or damage by striking.
I've read alot of posters' views about collecting moderns. I feel they are almost never not out to bash, but to share their experience and knowledge with anyone who wants to keep an open mind.
Yes, maybe there are some out there who just like to bash, just go on to the next post and enjoy your moderns!
Ronyahski:
And how many posts and threads never happen because everyone knows that
ANY TIME something appears about moderns there is likely to be someone there
to bash the post and sometimes the poster. Admittedly it's been much better re-
cently, but there's still a long long way to go.
Secondly, Q. David Bowers is probably somewhere near the top of the all time numismatic hall of fame, is extremely knowledgable regarding nearly every aspect of numismatics, runs a very large, successful coin firm, and has written enough books to fill a library,,,,,,,,,,,,so I would take anything he has to say quite seriously.
Dragon
<< <i>so I would take anything he has to say quite seriously.
Dragon >>
Great!!! I can get those gem late date Lincolns for a buck then!
<< <i>so I would take anything he has to say quite seriously.
Dragon >>
Great!!! I can get those gem late date Lincolns for a buck then!
slabbing services started and Morgan dollars were all the rage that no one
warned newbies or anyone else that few coins had been graded yet and
that as the populations grew there would be a concommitent collapse.
Its called history, like dbldie55 said when slabbing started no one knew the consciences of slabbing and POP reports would have on coins. Fast forward 15+ years later and it is all to evident what the affects are, low POP = big money even when a coin is only been around a year or 2. But as history tells us the POPS will go up which on average means a decline in value that is of course if you believe history repeats itself (which I happen to believe in).
Many people like to collect coins that are familiar to them. Not everyone can appreciate a classic large cent that is a problem free VF right away. They have to grow into it and modern coins is a great way to start. You learn about coins, learn how the hobby works and start to learn how to look at coins to grade them. Many of the modern coins are ones that you see everyday or ones that you grew up with if you were in my generation. It's easy to appreciate how much nicer these coins are than the ones you see everyday in change.
If it's a coin dealer who at the same time feels high-grade classics justify huge premiums over lesser grades, I take it with a big grain of salt.
If they compare high-grade moderns to past modern supposed date-rarities, I discount it as irrelevant.
If it's someone who has a bunch of factual mistakes regarding moderns, why should I expect their conclusions to be valid.
If they make blanket statements that indicate a closed mind, forget it.
However... if someone has taken the time to understand that what they're criticizing, that's different. The extreme example would be a modern enthusiast that throws a warning flag about some particular date or issue or price. THEN I take notice.
I get 2002-D state quarters from new rolls at the supermarket for 25 cents each! I can put them in Air Tite holders and a black velvet card for another $1.55. Maybe it's only an MS-65 instead of a 67, but it looks really nice and only cost me $1.80.
I second cladkings sentiment-- don't buy those ugly Morgans!
Obscurum per obscurius
If the person discounting moderns promotes "buy the best you can afford" classics as good investments, I'm immediately skeptical. Over the long run, a typical $50,000 classic will lose more every single year in opportunity cost than any $1000 clad coin ever will.
If the person generalizes modern collecting or condition rarity based on (what may be legitimate) examples of extreme madness, then their argument has little merit. Buying a PR70 Ike label for a few thousand has little to do with someone seeking out and paying a premium for a tough mint-state Ike.
If your looking at a state quarter with a 5X glass there is a huge difference between a 65 and a 67. If the person doesn't care about that your way is better. If the person cares than it might be worth it for them to buy a graded MS-67. It's whatever makes the customer happy.
Apparently such people are comforted by the fact that a $5000 Morgan contains $4 worth of silver.
<< <i>let's see they get bashed becasue ther were 1,323,232,2323,432 minted every year of exsistance. >>
That says it all in just one sentance.
I understand your love of modern coinage. I have the same feelings for the Seated coins.
I've been collecting since 1957.
You didn't ask for advise, but I'd like to offer some anyway.
Listen to Dave Bowers. You won't regret it. He's one of the top people in the field of coin collecting.
Ray
I was just yankin' your chain, Numish. No offense intended.
Now if I could just find an 1872-S silver dollar in change...
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>
Listen to Dave Bowers. You won't regret it. He's one of the top people in the field of coin collecting.
Ray >>
This is sound advice and I always take it when Mr Bowers is talking about classics
or music boxes. He is extremely knowledgeable and informed in these areas.
<< <i>
I second cladkings sentiment-- don't buy those ugly Morgans!
Just so everyone knows you're joking; I never said this and these are not my sentiments.
This is a reference to the Morgans right?
Lets look at the 3rd year of issue SanFransisco Mint coins from the Morgan dollar and compare it to the 3rd year issue of the SBA$.
1880S Morgan original mintage = 8,900,000
1981S Susan B. Anthony mintage= 3,492,000
1880S PCGS MS65 POP = 27,000 (includes prooflikes) Pop Higher 9,000 (including 6 MS69 coins)
1981S PCGS MS65 POP = 188 Pop Higher 68 (all MS66)
Is this a result of the 1981S not being searched and graded? I offered $10,000 for the first MS67 1981S to be graded almost 2 years ago. I believe the MS66 POP has gone up by 8 in this time. No one has found a MS67!
The 1981S in MS66 sells for about $500 so there is ample reason to search and grade these coins. However, the 1981S was not saved in bags of $1,000 and can not be found by the roll easily. If they are found this way they most certainly have been searched.
Collect what you like, but telling people that a high grade Morgan is a good investment and that a high grade SBA$ is a terrible one is classic misinformation. I have searched thousands of these coins and I know how rare high grade examples are.
You mean I'm taking all of this stuff too serious again. I'll have to make sure it never happens again. I'm going to put my 5X glass away for a few hours.
<< <i>nucklehead; << let's see they get bashed because there were 1,323,232,2323,432 minted every year of exsistance. >>
This is a reference to the Morgans right?
Lets look at the 3rd year of issue SanFransisco Mint coins from the Morgan dollar and compare it to the 3rd year issue of the SBA$.
1880S Morgan original mintage = 8,900,000
1981S Susan B. Anthony mintage= 3,492,000
1880S PCGS MS65 POP = 27,000 (includes prooflikes) Pop Higher 9,000 (including 6 MS69 coins)
been searched.
. >>
Isolated example, you have to look at the whole sample.
I think this all comes down to whether you personally believe a coin is worth more in a certified holder than the same coin OUT of the holder. I do NOT....but that's just me.
jom
change or trying to find an elusive nickel. Also many modern collectors don't
even buy slabs. They are finding their coins in mint sets, proof sets or trading
with other collectors. Many are keeping current by going to their banks every
few months to get the newest coins before thy start wearing in circulation.
Sure some are putting together variety, error, registry, and high grade collec-
tions but these are not necessarily slabbed or expensive. Generally the modern
bashers just dismiss them all out of hand, just as they dismiss the collectors and
the coins out of hand.
it seems those who speak out against collecting moderns always fall back on the huge mintage. it's a valid point without a valid conclusion. for even though countless millions of most issues were produced, it's becoming known that for certain issues there are small surviving populations. and yet when modern proponents breach that point they are dismissed and ridiculed, though generally in good nature. hard for me to understand.
i straddle both sides of the fence. my collecting focuses on moderns by series and classics by type. i have a dealer holding a 1902 liberty nickel till i can get back to him and at a show this weekend i'll meet a fellow member and pick up a few 1976 Ike rolls. probably too much of a swing for some to understand. collecting is just too much fun for me to ignore a certain area because of misunderstanding and bias. my only limitation is money, but there's always lower grades!!
al h.
Give me a Proof 70 Kennedy any day of the week. I mean geeze, he may have cheated on the person who he should have honored and he may have left a few thousand corpses at the Bay of Pigs in Cuba, but man, what a head of hair that guy had! (Had.)
And that modern commem with the cripple. Man that is cool. It reminds me to wear my seat belt everytime I see it.
Yeah, give me moderns or give me death. Financial death. I guess that's what I'll probably eventually get but I don't spend but about $500 a month on them and over the next several years they probably won't lose more than those internet stocks did. I don't mind keeping company with Bill Gates. We can both lose our shirts together. Me and Bill, we're like twins separated at birth.
When people complained about poverty and overpopulation in London his solution was to "Eat the children."
Obscurum per obscurius