The Half Dollar Hunt - WOW!!! UPDATE!

jtryka

Well, for those of you that search for treasure among half dollars, this has been a banner day for me! I got $160 in halves from the bank today, hoping to find some silver, and I did find 2 40% silver halves, but in the last roll I opened, I noticed immediately that one of them was too small. At first I was ticked that someone might have thrown a junk foreign coin in there, but it looked to be clad, and sure enough it was a 1980-P Kennedy. So I thought either it was one of those gag shrinking coins, or struck on the wrong planchet. I decided to take it with me to the coin show in Tacoma this afternoon hoping someone there might be more knowledgable than I am on such things. So I showed it to a few dealers who directed me to two others that were more senior/knowledgable. I showed it to them, and I think it made their day. They were in agreement that it looked by all accounts that this was a 1980 Kennedy struck on a SBA planchet. They were stunned that I just found it in a roll today, and were amazed at such a great find. They looked in the Red Book and said it was probably worth a few hundred bucks, but I would need to have it authenticated. Any suggestions on the best service for errors like this? Here are some photos to check out too:
Pic #1
Pic #2
Pic #3
Pic #4
Pic #5
Pic #6

FC57Coins

Cool find - congratulations!

PS - I think either PCGS, NGC or ANACS would attribute this error.

DaveG

Since the grade doesn't matter, I would think ANACS would be a good choice.

fcloud

Way Cool! Congratulations on the find. As far as which company--I don't know. Good luck.

osirisMMII

I think someone is trying to pull a fast one The coin appears to be bigger than an SBA yet smaller than a Kennedy. If it was an SBA planchet struck during minting of Kennedys by a Kennedy die the planchet would still end up being close to the the same diameter as the Kennedy (although much thinner - which this coin is). If it was struck during SBA minting using a Kennedy die it would be the same size as a SBA and probably offcenter some. Just doesn't look right - so I'll vote it's the ebay coin-shrinker guy screwin' around.


Edited for clarity! It just doesn't have the right look - if you look at the clarity of the reeded edge yet the coin is not full size (Kennedy)?

Blade

Jeff - Awesome find. Funny, I've thought about digging around in the Kennedy's and that is way cool.

Osiris - I'm not an error expert, but from browsing some error sites, I learned that a larger coin struck on a smaller coin's planchet will, in fact, be some larger than the smaller coin's blank planchet. The reason is that the the smaller coin is not bound by the collar against the rim. The press pushes the metal out and without a collar to stop it, it expands. I have seen quarters on nickel planchets that are almost full quarter size. But it will be thinner than an SBA.

Jeff - The shrunk coins are thicker than usual. If this is thinner than a half or an SBA, you probably are right.

jtryka

Well, again, I am not an expert, and if it's a scam, then someone is an idiot, since I only paid 50-cents for this coin. The shinking coins also have a wavy appearance since the same amount of metal is squeezed into a smaller diameter. This coin is both smaller, thinner and lighter than a Kennedy. If it's a fake, someone went through a lot of trouble to just put this into circulation. Eventually I will just send it in to be authenticated, and then we'll know with greater certainty.

DMWJR

I would think you would want PCGS to authenticate it if they would. If not, I would have ANACS holder it. Many, many error and variety collectors rely on ANACS over SEGS and other attributing graders.

Russ

<< <i>Just doesn't look right - so I'll vote it's the ebay coin-shrinker guy screwin' around. >>



Tim,

If it were done by Bert, he would have to have changed his process. His Kennedys are much smaller in diameter.

Russ, NCNE

nwcs

Doesn't really matter all that much what happened to that half. It's cool to find something that different in a roll! Congrats!

telecoin

I am baffled by this coin. The most unusual thing about the coin is that it appears to have perfect reeding on the edge and a rim. If it were a half struck on an SBA palnchet, the reeding would only be present if the diameter were the same as a half (as it would have to expand enough to fill the collar). How the heck did the reeding form?

ursabear

Extremely cool! I think a professional service is most definitely in order here.

Which one? I have seen lots of error attributions in both PCGS and ANACS holders. I don't know what the market will bear on the basis of encapsulation brand.

jtryka

well, I admit I know little on this so maybe someone could fill us in on the minting process and how something like this could occur?

Petescorner

jtryka, maybe that's the "inside" half that fell out of dreamn3d's two headed Kennedy!

Just kidding, terrific find. I agree with the wrong planchet hypothesis.

nwcs

Maybe instead of a SBA planchet on a JFK die production line, it was a JFK die set used on a SBA production line. That is, the collar's size was set for SBA and the wrong die was placed into where the SBA die was supposed to be, instead of a planchet going down the wrong path?

ClarkOfKent

Hmmm.... is the reeding done before the coin is struck?

telecoin

<< <i>Maybe instead of a SBA planchet on a JFK die production line, it was a JFK die set used on a SBA production line. >>


I was thinking that at first, but the diameter appears to be much larger than an SBA. Maybe some sort of trial piece that slipped out of the mint?

FC57Coins

Maybe it wasn't an SBA planchet - does anyone know if the mint uses the same clad composition on foreign coins, only slightly smaller?

telecoin

<< <i>Hmmm.... is the reeding done before the coin is struck? >>


No, the reeding is done in the collar as the coin is struck. Maybe the guy who claims he made the 1959 wheat cent did this one too.

DMWJR

Clark -- Reeding (the third side of the coin) is done at the same time the coin is struck in the dies, by the collar.

NWCS -- If a JFK planchet was used with JFK dies and an SBA collar, The coin would either be extra thick or it would create a bottle cap effect much like what happens when a coin gets stuck in a die and another planchet is fed into the stamping position.

jtryka

Well, I just downloaded the ANACS submission form and send a message to them about this coin through their website. I will try to call them monday too.

Placid

Congrats on the interesting find. Maybe look thru heritage's auction history for errors and see if you can find one like it.
I found one stuck on a quarter planchet. Sold for about $600.
If your is on a sba it would be worth alot more in my opinion since sba's were only made for a fe years.

grip

There is not enough metal flow to get reeding on a smaller planchet struck by a die set up for a larger denomination,My question is how did it get reeding??.Al

braddick

I absolutely agree it is a Kennedy struck on a SBA planchet and is worth a considerable amount because of it! This is one of the greatest finds we've had here for a while. Nice catch jtryka!~

DMWJR

I forgot to put this on the previous post:

A leftover SBA planchet that went through a JFK press is the only way I figure it can happen.

telecoin

Your scans didn't show the reverse of the coin. You're not trying to yank us around with a magician's coin, are you?? The raised rim has the tell-tale seam that you see on two-headed coins...HMMM...

jtryka

telecoin,

while I appreciate your skepticism, I assure you what I've told you is true. The only thing I can say with certainty is that I bought it for 50 cents in a roll of halves this morning from the bank. I am attaching 2 new photos, both of the reverse, one is a closeup with another kennedy, and the other is with an SBA for comparison purposes. enjoy!

W/SBA
Reverse

DMWJR

Does it weigh the same as an SBA?

The picture of all three together raise new questions . . .

fcloud

There is the possiblity the coin was struck over an already struck SBA... That could account for the reeding. The pressure may have been enough to cover any indication of the SBA design... Look closely using a magnifier and see if the is any hint of SBA markings.

Tony

itsnotjustme

Measure the surface details of the coin carefully. From the side-by-side images, Kennedy looks bigger on the normal half. Also on the reverse, there appears to be some distortion along the ring of stars. I wonder if this isn't a failed attempt shrunken coin. I cannot understand how the reeding would form with a smaller planchet. If it were struck on an SBA dollar, I would expect some visible details.

fcloud

could we see a picture of the reverse?

jtryka

fcloud,

I added reverse pics above, and added them to my original post. I looked at it under 10x, and no trace of an SBA that I could see. I also measured the length and width of Kennedy's head, and the length of the words on obverse and reverse and they match perfectly. The other noticable thing on the reeding is that there is no stripe of nickel, only copper, and the nickel rim does not appear until you look at the very edge of the obverse at about a 45 degree angle. As for the weight, I have no way of checking that here, though that would probably settle a great many questions and possible raise even more.

clackamas

I think its a partially shrunken half. The key will be measuring the details. They would have to be the same for it to have been struck by a genuine die. The 2 coins, IMO look to have different sized details. There should be some detail missing if it were struck on a smaller planchet, just like the quarter pictured.

jtryka

I might agree on the shrinking, but normally in the shrinking process, there are distortions to the design, and there are none here. I also measured the details of the head and lettering and they match my normal size Kennedy to the letter (as I stated just above). What is missing is the edge of the lettering on the obverse and the rim on the reverse. Basically, if you took 0.5 mm off the entire circumference of a Kennedy you would have this coin, but you would have to add the reeding.

jtryka

Here are a couple more next to a ruler, not sure if it will help any. These are the last pics I am taking, I am just going to sent it off for authentication, and be done with it!
Pic#7
Pic#8

toothpuller

What a neat find. Please let us know the final outcome of your submission.

RJB

If you have the means handy, your first move would be to weigh the coin. A SBA weighs out at 8.1 grams. If your coin matches this give or take 0.1 then I would let ANACS have a look at it. The Kennedy half weighs about 11.34 grams so there is a significant difference. BOB

RGL

An interesting find, JT. We eagerly await the outcome. For 50 cents, can't be beat ... (I asked for half dollars at the bank on Saturday and they only had one roll. But, it did contain five 40 percent JFKs!)

supercoin

That's a puzzler!

The only explanation I can think of is a SBA (or something) that was normally struck, forming the reeding, and subsequently struck in a Kennedy press with Kennedy dies. I'm surprised the reeding would appear so regular if that happened, and it's also surprising that you couldn't see any trace of the SBA design. But I can't think of another explanation.

I don't think it could be Kennedy dies used with an SBA planchet and SBA collar die, because the Kennedy dies would be too big for the SBA collar die. But I'm not sure how the presses are set up. Maybe it would work for a few times, destroying all the dies in the process. If that is what happened, it would a very impressive find.

It's not a shrunken coin, because the devices are full size, it's just missing part of the rim. Also the edge view does not show a thicker coin, in fact it shows a thinner coin. Which is consistent with the SBA coin/planchet theory.

The only way I could see it being a fake is someone with a LOT of time on their hands... machining off part of the coin and then machining the reeding back on.

Even without a scale you could compare the weight to a Kennedy and a SBA by making a simple balance... I did that once by tying a couple flips onto either end of a stick, then suspending the stick in the center from another string. Cheesy but surprisingly accurate for determining equal weights.

You might also be able to count the number of "reeds"... presumably a Kennedy and SBA have a different number though I don't know what the counts are.

In any event, thanks for the intriguing COIN-RELATED post.

jtryka

Well, I tried to get it weighed at the Fred Meyer jewelry department since they are the only jewelers I know of that are open on sunday, but their scale was broken. I tried looking at the kitchen scales but they only go down as far as 2 gram increments. Finally, I stopped at a kitchen store, and although they didn't have a more accurate scale, they did have a balance, and I put this one and a regular one on it, and the regular one was definitely heavier. As far as the number of reeds, I just spent 10 minutes trying to count them (I never want to try that again) and I counted 132, but according to the mint website, the half dollar is supposed to have 150, and the SBA 133. So this is the latest. I will try to get an accurate weight at the Jeweler in the lobby of my office tomorrow.

grip

You can also take the coin to your local gun shop if there is one close.Al

jtryka

I don't have a clue where or if there is a gun shop around here! Either way, I have laundry and work to do this afternoon, so it can wait until tomorrow.

RJB

I think the scales at the post office weigh in grams, if you have one close by. BOB

jtryka

Good idea Bob, I figure they are all closed today, but I will first try the jewelers since they likely use them for gold weighing and would probably be able to go to the tenth of a gram. If they can't then I will try the PO, but I worry they might not go down far enough, since most postal break points are at 1/2 ounce.

jtryka

Ok, I've come up with a theory, so I trust you will tell me if it makes sense, or you can shoot it down:

The mint does a trial SBA strike with blank (or no die) to test the collar. That blank strike then gets accidentally thrown into the bin with the Kennedy planchets and is struck as a Kennedy resulting in a smaller coin, with the edge of an SBA. Or, those fun mint guys were just horsing around and this one got loose.

66Tbird

The local head shop should have a cheap clip type scale. I have had one for years, and while it may not be calibrated to the adsolute, it will work well for a comparison. Mine will weigh a paper clip at a gram, and since it is not a digital reading, any change is easy to see, down to a 1/5 grm is about the limit.

Cool find BTW.

jtryka

Ok, I am going to show my ignorance here, but what is a "head shop"?

wallstreetman

They sell items that use or measure chemicals(drugs) for the brain to leave its current state!

Spinynorman

<< <i>Maybe it wasn't an SBA planchet - does anyone know if the mint uses the same clad composition on foreign coins, only slightly smaller? >>



No, the only clad coins they made in that time frame were for Panama and were the same planchets as they used for our coins.

Great find, jtryka!! I hope that it turns out to be the real thing.

Gilbert

Why couldn't it be struck on a quarter planchet?

Why couldn't the coin still obtain the collar reeding, even being a smaller planchet; shouldn't the result just be a thinner coin? We aren't talking about a dime planchet. A quarter or SBA is not that much different in size than a half dollar to absolutely preclude reeding, or is it?

I just say skip ANACS and the others and have Weinberg or Potter look at it first. In such a case, do you really want to slab such an error? Wouldn't it preclude veiwing many of the features that make it so unique? (Thinner size, weight, reeding) If it proves to be authentic, this is the type of coin I would place in a cointainer, a flip, OR if I felt the pressure to encapsulate it, it would be in a slab conducive to the most views possible.

supercoin

It looks too big to be a quarter, I think less of the design would be showing given the thickness. To be big enough, it would need to be flattened thinner than it is.

Also the reeding count would be wrong for a quarter (US Mint reference), though maybe we could demand a recount from jtryka to drive him to insanity.

A weight check would quickly narrow things down.

Regarding a smaller planchet getting reeding -- I suppose in theory it could receive the reeding in a larger collar, but the only way that could happen is if the planchet was struck so hard that it flattened out to the full size of the larger coin, which is not the case here. If it's not struck to full size, it's impossible for it to contact the collar die around the whole circumference.