Wow, I certainly hope not, dwarfs is a large [pun] adjective, and Wall Street is currently riddled with fraud [Enron, Grubman and the so-called analysts, Arthur Andersen and the accountants to just start].
WorldCom , Salomon Smith Barney... the thing that gets me the most is how little things have changed despite all the government regulation. turns out the people that work for the government are just as crooked and corrupt as us ordinary civillians. Who woulda thunk it
And I really do think there are fewer crooks in the coin industry, primarily BECAUSE we don't have government regualtions that institutionalize corruption. Collectors are still free to help each other out, without worrying about idiotic legalities that serve no purpose other than protecting the priveledged.
EVP, I was in no way attacking the other side. It was a comment made after reading quite a few threads over there attacking this forum. I would love to spend more time over there, but it seems the only activity is when someone bashes this forum.
As I recall David Hall said PCGS is going after the coin doctor who they suspect applied the cosmetic to the doctored Saint. What can they do in this instance and what do you suppose will happen to the doc, if anything?
Thanks for bringing this back on track and about coins...
If I had to guess -- and this is just a guess -- I think there's very little that PCGS can do to this person. If PCGS revokes this person's ability to submit to PCGS, then it's really easy for this guy to submit to PCGS through another channel. (Like via a buddy or as a non-dealer via the collector's club program.)
PCGS's really ability to harm folks like this guy is to name names. But, their lawyers would advise against that as that would expose PCGS to some potentially serious and damaging litigation.
I think we need a strong Coin Dealers Exchange Commission that has real powers... (Pipe dreams, I know.)
EVP, I was in no way attacking the other side. It was a comment made after reading quite a few threads over there attacking this forum. I would love to spend more time over there, but it seems the only activity is when someone bashes this forum.
I think it's hasty for folks to think that a coin-oriented forum can survive and grow if it mostly caters to negativity. Yet, that site is growing. Perhaps you just caught it on a bad day? Perhaps you simply didn't spend enough time there?
If you never truly avail yourself on that opportunity, then you know (or care) what you're missing. No biggie, 'cuz I'm sure you have more than enough going on in your life...
But, if you do avail yourself of that site, you may find the reasons why so many folks like that place -- even though the content is not nearly as voluminous as it is here. And, if you do avail yourself of that site, I think it would be appropriate if you also tried to make a positive contribution to the site.
Here is my 2nd and last comment, I'll offer, regarding the NGC v PCGS forums:
Just like the obnoxious, arrogant, trolling attitudes made their presence felt in this forum, so will they at NGC, for it is essentially all the same people that make/made up the membership of rcc to pcgs and eventually, if not already ngc.
BTW, as of this moment, there are 22 non-pinned threads on the 1st page of the NGC site's U.S. Coin Forum. Of these 22, only 4 are about the past week's political developments. And, these four threads are at the bottom of the page.
I have never said anything negative about NGC excluding a couple tongue N cheek comments.
I did not say the NGC board is boring I just stated I would not fit in there. Why? Because I could not keep silent on all the negative comments about people who collect PCGS slabbed coins. There are a lot of good discussions there.
EVP has got me wound up. It appears his only objective is to attack PCGS and the collectors who choose to collect coins in PCGS slabs. He has assigned himself the role of ring leader linking threads from here to there, stirring the pot, and keeping the conflicts in the limelight. He is quick to label others that do not agree with him as sheep, ostriches, and kool-aid drinkers. His first reaction to anything is to attack in an attempt to discredit and bully others.
I do not like all the fighting and name calling on this forum. It seems everyone has separated into different cliques formed with others who have the same self serving interests. Everyone has developed a strong intolerance towards the views and opinions or others. Its enough to drive a person mad.
I am sick to death of the PCGS vs NGC war. They are 2 different companies that operate within the same hobby comparable to Pepsi vs Coke. They will never agree just as we as collectors will never agree and neither is going to change their recipe to be more like the other. Both NGC & PCGS do what they do for the sole purpose of making their product more marketable to garnish the lions share. NGC could care less about accommodating PCGS and vise versa. Any action by either company that appears to be accepting of the other you can bet has an underlying self serving agenda. Collectors will always side with one and criticize the other. 90% of all the attacks against grading companies are born from collectors and dealers with self serving motives and agendas.
Regardless of what either company says there is a reason NGC allows PCGS coins in their registry and PCGS does not. It has little to do with the slabs or their opinion on the quality or consistency of grading and the same goes for crossovers.
There is nothing we can or will ever do to change that and fighting amongst ourselves is counterproductive. We will agree on most but not all.
Am I always tolerant and non combative, no. But I always regret not being and have been trying to modify my approach.
Bill
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Regarding the fraud of the stock market and the coin market, my point was that the dollar level of fraud in the equity markets is bigger but the number of incidents is far smaller. That's why they get the press coverage. And that makes sense since the total value of equities is measured in trillions (with a T) while the coin market is measured in billions (with a , that's an order of magnitude of 1,000! So ask yourself, how many cases of corporate fraud have occurred since 1999? A dozen? Two dozen? Fifty? that's a pretty small number compared with the more than 9,000 publicly traded companies. Now ask yourself how many dealers in your town do you trust implicitly? When I was in Portland there were 7 dealers that I had ever dealt with, but only two I felt I could really trust. Not let's look at the number of eBay fraud cases involving coins, or mail order ads, or AT, or other coin doctoring? The numbers become huge on a relative basis compared with the regulated equity markets.
Toothpuller, I am one of those "the so-called analysts" you speak of, and needless to say I so take that personally. If you'd like to turn this thread into the bash Wall Street thread, that's just fine. I'll just go back to the NGC boards and talk about coins. I get enough Wall Street bashing every day in the media, I don't need more of it in my free time.
No bashing from here. The high profile securities cases are the only ones we hear about and it seems we have heard of a good number lately. My point was I just wanted to know about all the fraud that you implied was going on in the coin market. Just here looking for information. Please don't take it personally. I still have the predominant portion of my net worth invested in the stock market and realize the vast majority of individuals in the industry are trustworthy and hard working.
Comments
WorldCom , Salomon Smith Barney... the thing that gets me the most is how little things have changed despite all the government regulation. turns out the people that work for the government are just as crooked and corrupt as us ordinary civillians. Who woulda thunk it
Pitt Resigns
Webster Resigns
And I really do think there are fewer crooks in the coin industry, primarily BECAUSE we don't have government regualtions that institutionalize corruption. Collectors are still free to help each other out, without worrying about idiotic legalities that serve no purpose other than protecting the priveledged.
adrian
anaconda.rare.coins (on eBay)
my hotels
Thanks for bringing this back on track and about coins...
If I had to guess -- and this is just a guess -- I think there's very little that PCGS can do to this person. If PCGS revokes this person's ability to submit to PCGS, then it's really easy for this guy to submit to PCGS through another channel. (Like via a buddy or as a non-dealer via the collector's club program.)
PCGS's really ability to harm folks like this guy is to name names. But, their lawyers would advise against that as that would expose PCGS to some potentially serious and damaging litigation.
I think we need a strong Coin Dealers Exchange Commission that has real powers... (Pipe dreams, I know.)
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I think it's hasty for folks to think that a coin-oriented forum can survive and grow if it mostly caters to negativity. Yet, that site is growing. Perhaps you just caught it on a bad day? Perhaps you simply didn't spend enough time there?
If you never truly avail yourself on that opportunity, then you know (or care) what you're missing. No biggie, 'cuz I'm sure you have more than enough going on in your life...
But, if you do avail yourself of that site, you may find the reasons why so many folks like that place -- even though the content is not nearly as voluminous as it is here. And, if you do avail yourself of that site, I think it would be appropriate if you also tried to make a positive contribution to the site.
Regards,
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Just like the obnoxious, arrogant, trolling attitudes made their presence felt in this forum, so will they at NGC, for it is essentially all the same people that make/made up the membership of rcc to pcgs and eventually, if not already ngc.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
my hotels
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
my hotels
I did not say the NGC board is boring I just stated I would not fit in there. Why? Because I could not keep silent on all the negative comments about people who collect PCGS slabbed coins. There are a lot of good discussions there.
EVP has got me wound up. It appears his only objective is to attack PCGS and the collectors who choose to collect coins in PCGS slabs. He has assigned himself the role of ring leader linking threads from here to there, stirring the pot, and keeping the conflicts in the limelight. He is quick to label others that do not agree with him as sheep, ostriches, and kool-aid drinkers. His first reaction to anything is to attack in an attempt to discredit and bully others.
I do not like all the fighting and name calling on this forum. It seems everyone has separated into different cliques formed with others who have the same self serving interests. Everyone has developed a strong intolerance towards the views and opinions or others. Its enough to drive a person mad.
I am sick to death of the PCGS vs NGC war. They are 2 different companies that operate within the same hobby comparable to Pepsi vs Coke. They will never agree just as we as collectors will never agree and neither is going to change their recipe to be more like the other. Both NGC & PCGS do what they do for the sole purpose of making their product more marketable to garnish the lions share. NGC could care less about accommodating PCGS and vise versa. Any action by either company that appears to be accepting of the other you can bet has an underlying self serving agenda. Collectors will always side with one and criticize the other. 90% of all the attacks against grading companies are born from collectors and dealers with self serving motives and agendas.
Regardless of what either company says there is a reason NGC allows PCGS coins in their registry and PCGS does not. It has little to do with the slabs or their opinion on the quality or consistency of grading and the same goes for crossovers.
There is nothing we can or will ever do to change that and fighting amongst ourselves is counterproductive. We will agree on most but not all.
Am I always tolerant and non combative, no. But I always regret not being and have been trying to modify my approach.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Toothpuller, I am one of those "the so-called analysts" you speak of, and needless to say I so take that personally. If you'd like to turn this thread into the bash Wall Street thread, that's just fine. I'll just go back to the NGC boards and talk about coins. I get enough Wall Street bashing every day in the media, I don't need more of it in my free time.
evp
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
WWBillman: I apologize for winding you up.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
No bashing from here. The high profile securities cases are the only ones we hear about and it seems we have heard of a good number lately. My point was I just wanted to know about all the fraud that you implied was going on in the coin market. Just here looking for information. Please don't take it personally. I still have the predominant portion of my net worth invested in the stock market and realize the vast majority of individuals in the industry are trustworthy and hard working.