First Order of Business: Allow NGC coins into the Registry.
braddick
Posts: 24,109 ✭✭✭✭✭
It's time. PCGS- make the move. It's a brave one and a very few may scoff, but allow NGC coins into the Registry. You'll be amazed at the good press you'll get from collectors and your outlay is minimal.
NGC has yet to suffer any negativity for allowing PCGS coins in their Registry and the hoax/perception that PCGS coins are "better" coins than NGC's has long since been dispelled.
Added benefit: We'de be too busy in the next couple of days in updating our Registries to continue campaigning for other reforms!
NGC has yet to suffer any negativity for allowing PCGS coins in their Registry and the hoax/perception that PCGS coins are "better" coins than NGC's has long since been dispelled.
Added benefit: We'de be too busy in the next couple of days in updating our Registries to continue campaigning for other reforms!
peacockcoins
0
Comments
I am still a beginner. While I have looked at more proof Jeffersons than any other issue I haven't looked at all that many of them. For some dates I've only seen a handful of superb coins. But from what I've seen NGC and PCGS use different standards when grading proof Jeffs. Very close, but different. So I pay the PCGS premium for what I feel is the better coin.
Naturally I look for cheaper NGC coins that I feel meet the slightly tougher PCGS standard. Who wouldn't? We all are looking to cherry pick value.
I actually "upgraded" two Jeffs in the NGC registry to NGC coins. They are 1951 and 1952 Jeffs graded NGC PF 68 Cam. I paid more for my PCGS coins in those years and they are only graded 67 Cam. If these coins were raw I would choose the ones that used to be in the PCGS holder. They have more cameo and better fields that have deeper reflections and less haze. I am keeping the NGC coins so I can get the extra points in the NGC Registry. I am keeping the PCGS coins because they are nicer.
<< <i>the hoax/perception that PCGS coins are "better" coins than NGC's has long since been dispelled >>
Not as far as I'm concerned; at least not for Lincoln cents. I've spent a lot of time looking at NGC Lincolns and the garbage that is allowed to find homes in NGC MS65RD or better holders is enough to make me physically ill. I know this is not the only series where there is a noticable discrepancy between the two services; its just the most noticable one in my opinion...the grading difference is over one half point on average from what I can tell.
RELLA
edited because I can't spell
who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
twenty times.
I've got two NGC Large Cents and I believe both would cross with no hesitation. The problem is that the standard that PCGS uses is tighter that the industry standards, but that doesn't necessarily make their coins better, does it?
They {NGC} use a more liberal standard. The rustling sound is Tim putting on his asbestos suit!
Regards,
Tim
Question for you. If greysheet says that a generic coin should go for $100, and an NGC version goes for $95 and PCGS goes for $135, who does the market think is using the correct "standard?" NGC's standard was the ANA guidelines, which is what most price guides and dealers consider. PCGS's standard is a grading system they invented, and can't be compared to any other.
PM sent
If PCGS really grades tougher, then by definition, their coins are better grade for grade. PCGS might be too tight, but if so, their coins are better.
My own view is that NGC standards are not as high as PCGS standards. This actually says to me that PCGS has integrity and confidence in what they do. It is easy to loosen standards to get more submissions. To keep standards tight and possibly lose business as a result, I think speaks volumes.
I would recommend allowing some NGC coins into the PCGS sets. That way collectors won't have to try to get all their pieces crossed, or buy other pieces. Perhaps up to 10% of the coins could be NGC.
Greg
Cameron Kiefer
I felt that NGC did not do the right thing when they allowed PCGS coins on their site. That is an admission that PCGS grades are at least as good as NGC grades. PCGS keeps an edge by refusing to allow NGC coins to be listed in their Registry.
If I cracked out my entire set, I would feel a whole lot safer submitting to NGC and recieving the grades as they were previously graded. Not so with PCGS. PCGS's standards are higher, at least in the areas I collect.
Doug, I believe the opposite here. NGC made the smart move in their situation. Registry participants have been trying like mad to get their coins crossed to PCGS so they can have a "complete" Registry. But PCGS has trouble accepting those coins, even when we KNOW that they are equal or better than PCGS equivalents.
By allowing PCGS coins in, at the time, NGC made the statement "tired of paying for wasted crossover fees, join our Registry and don't worry about crossing anything, we take both." Very savvy move, as collectors with small percentages of NGC coins that were tired of PCGS rejecting their coins immediately took notice, and didn't worry about buying future coins in PCGS-only holders.
With out a doubt ,PCGS is more harsh on Lincoln's than NGC.
Easy 1/2 point. That's what I mainly collect,that's what I judge by.
<< <i>Allow NGC coins into the Registry. >>
If that applies to Lincoln's I would vote NO.
My Dimes
<< If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right the first time! >>
Your coins don't change.
Adding NGC coins though WILL bring more activity to the Registry and more fun. That's what I want. Don't you?
peacockcoins
From the perspective of a Morgan dollar collector only, I feel PCGS should not allow NGC coins into the PCGS Set registry.
Personally, I believe NGC allows more marks on Mint State Morgans than PCGS does... except for CC dates, where I believe the opposite is currently true, darn it.
I also believe that NGC is more forgiving -- incorrectly so when it comes to my checkbook -- toward ultra-clean (mark-free) Morgans that happen have soft strikes and/or mediocre lustre. I believe this is most apparent at MS65 grades and above.
I believe this approach at least partially explains why there are so many MS61 graded 1896-Os and 1901-Ps in NGC holders -- and why they are impossible to cross at PCGS. Been there and done that... six times with six different coins.
I don't have a clue what the situation is with other series, but when the PCGS vs. NGC debate concerns Morgans, I'm convinced there IS a moderate difference between the two services... and I shall continue to cast my vote$ for PCGS-graded coins.
-- Dennis
Each company has different grading standards and are market valued differently.
I just with PCGS Registry participants would wake up from their deep sleep and realize that both Registries are progressing aggressively forward.
peacockcoins
My Dimes
<< If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right the first time! >>
I take the PCGS registry to be exactly what it is, a collection of registered sets of PCGS coins (nothing more, nothing less), but for PCGS to change this would be a big step the wrong way for them.
The point is the PCGS registry fueled and flamed the fires for high grade PCGS coins, the nice NGC ones were and have already been cherry picked and crossed over. The remaining ones are the ones you see showing up, the good ones have been crossed. The PCGS ones that are similar to the NGC ones left are still being peddled on Ebay.
But for the COLLECTOR, it would be a step in the right direction! And, hence, in the long run- good for PCGS.
peacockcoins
How 'bout they allow NGC coins into the registry, but deduct 1 point from them?
Seems it would make most collectors happy, and PCGS would be re-inforcing the the concept that "their" coins are supirior!
Steve:
The "*" designation could have only .5 point deducted.
The "W" would stay with a 1 point deduction, as that should be a benchmark.
As for the "T" coins, they'd have to be sent in to the "toning" expert to see if the toning adds to the coin, deducts from it, or is just neutral.
So, why doesn't NGC have "*W" & "*T"?!?(or do they?)
Don
Registrycoin- I'd think PCGS would simply ignore it.
peacockcoins
ETA: (that's edited to add)
For example: If I were to cross my commems, I would want/expect my coins to get a grade bump and a star in most cases.
This would support a comparitive scale such as Don suggests.
Hands down Grade for Grade the PCGS Coins are Better. No Ifs,Ands or Buts about it. The PCGS coins are on the average 1 point better. This is shown quite well by the amount of money each services coins sell for. Go to Ebay,go to Web Sites, go to your local Coin Shop, Hell go any where and you can see that this is true. This is just not a Registry perception, this is a perception from the Collecting community.
If you want NGC Coins in the Registry, just Dump a point from the NGC coin just as Don stated. Outside of that Just Forget It.
Other Series, I have No Comment as I do not know how the coins compare.
Ken
And, my 1872 MS65RD, that won't upgrade (which is a carbon copy of my 1872 MS66RD) will be a bookend.
Wow, endless opportunities!!! Then there is the ..., and the...
It's sad that a couple of "service providers" can hold for ransom, the hobby I enjoy so much. One decides "Perfection" should not be awarded for "whatever their political reason". And the other, in some cases, is too liberal with their grades. Or is it, their competitor is to rigid?
Edited to say: The first 3 sentences are tongue waaaay in cheek.
The last is not!
But this is about the registry now, and I still dont like the idea of mixing the two, besides they are different companies. Goes to make reason, that they are going to be different in grade.
My Dimes
<< If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right the first time! >>
peacockcoins
Last month I sold him a MS64 1927D NGC Graded Merc Dime. It was one of the dimes I sent to NGC for grade review, because it was sort of Ugly and they agreed and conserved the coin. It came back Ghost White so Dennis, being a Lover of White Coins bought it. Well it was cracked and sent to PCGS. The Grade from PCGS, MS63.
I have also submitted coins to PCGS for Cross Over at the same Grade and have only had 2 coins make it. Then I bought a couple of NGC coins and cracked them. The Results. One point lower on all three I tried. Basically it has boiled down to why throw Good money after Bad money, buy the best first and forget the Cross Over/Crackout Game.
Ken
Dennis,
I will agree with you because grading is subjective.
Also, I will disagree with you. Even though the discussion is about two different companies, grading standards they both use were established long before the their existance. What they have done is, in part, is gone in slightly different directions in refining these standards. Otherwise I don't think you should have such a consistant seperation in grading.
I know the standards are suppose to be the same, and yes, they were set in place years. I started collecting in 1966, and the standards are written the same, but everyones interpetation has changed just enough to make it a different standard in grading companies.
Now, lets get back to real issue, "JUST SAY NO TO NGC COINS IN PCGS REGISTRY" LOL
My Dimes
<< If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right the first time! >>
I don't believe adding NGC coins to PCGS registry would yield "bring more activity to the Registry and more fun." I could expect folks will complain the "fairness." If we all agree NGC's grade should be deducted by a point today (it was one half point before), should we evaluate it every year and adjust it every year. It is total chaos.
In order to make life easy, if you would like to play mixing game, go to NGC site and play there. If you would like PCGS coins only, stay here and compete.
<< <i>Dam, I know the standards are suppose to be the same, and yes, they were set in place years. I started collecting in 1966, and the standards are written the same, but everyones interpetation has changed just enough to make it a different standard in grading companies. Now, lets get back to real issue, "JUST SAY NO TO NGC COINS IN PCGS REGISTRY" LOL
Tee-shirts available at the next coin convention!
peacockcoins
My Dimes
<< If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right the first time! >>
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>braddick..I want the first one...lol
Yours will have to be special order: one with a large enough neck opening to fit over your head!
peacockcoins
My Dimes
<< If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right the first time! >>
Had to vote on this one
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
to apples with the different PCGS inserts. I have no wish to compare apples to rhinocereses
by allowing NGC coins in.
-KHayse
in their registry under the following scenario:
For every 1% of coins contained within a registry that had NGC coins deduct 1/5 of 1% from the net grade of the NGC coins within the set. This would be a stated "penalty" which can be modest but will grow as more and more NGC coins are added to a set.
For example,
if 5% of the registry set were NGC coins deduct 1% from the net grade of all the NGC coins in the registry set.
If 10% of the registry set were NGC deduct 2% from the net grade of all the NGC coins in the registry set.
If 40% of the registry set were NGC deduct 8% from the net grade of all the NGC coins in the registry set.
As you can see from the above examples, they allow for more than 10% non {CGS coins but also exacts a growing but rational "penalty" or "service charge" for using non proprietary products in a system paid for by the proprietary company (PCGS).
If someone wanted to put a 100% NGC product right here for the thrill of it they would have a net rating of 80% of the raw grade but so what? We PCGS users get to look at another collectors set and enjoy it for what it is.
If a collection were rated all MS-67 with 1% NGC coins such set would be net graded 67 - (0.2% x 67) = 66.86
If a collection were rated all MS-67 with 5% NGC coins such set would be net graded 67 - (1% x 67) = 66.33
If a collection were rated all MS-67 with 10% NGC coins such set would be net graded 67 - (2% x 67) = 65.66.
If a collection were rated all MS-67 with 20% NGC coins such set would be net graded 67 - (4% x 67) =
64.34.
This allows for more flexibility than even the current NGC plan but with an appropriate "service charge."
I like this idea enough that I believe NGC should use this same model.
This would provide a very simple formula to calculate a modest or more severe penalty depending on how many NGC coins are included in the set.
The reason why this may work is many collector may want to use NGC slabs as fillers on certain coins or coins that are simply unavailable in PCGS but would give them an incentive to display what they have under a formula that all can understand yet protect the preference for having PCGS coins with a registry set.
What do you gals and guys think?