Are we as stupid as we pretend to be?

shirohniichan

I find it funny that there are many threads about how we want dealers to treat us with respect as knowledgable collectors, yet we also want them to assume we know nothing about coin prices. We go to a show with our Gray Sheets in hand and loupes around our necks. We don't want dealers explaining the difference between a T1 and T2 SBA because we know more about them than the dealers do. When we want to sell something, however, all our knowledge flies out the door and we pretend to be dumb. "Mr. Dealer, I want you to buy this coin from me, but I have no idea what it's worth. But, please don't treat me like an idiot-- I'm an expert collector."

Why is this?

[Edited to correct spelling]

braddick

I think there is always the hope, when selling a coin to a Dealer, he is going to offer more than what we would have asked. No one wants to walk away from a coin deal either believing he bought at too high a price or sold at too low of one.

Dog97

That's the way I used to act when I went shopping for pre-owned cars.

Trime

Shiro,
Probably!

shirohniichan

"Pre-owned cars"

Good one, Dog!

MAULUMALL

shirohniichan
I promise I'm not pretending.

PTVETTER

Let me see if I got this straight.
You go to a show and ask the dealer how much he wants for his coin,

when you go to the show and the dealer ask how much you want for you coin, he's wrong?

Here is my take as a dealer, who ever has the coin sets the price, not trends not gray sheet not cu price guide. If it's my coin I set the price. If you have the coin and I want it I have to meet your price or pass..

It is just the way I see it. I don't mean to offend anyone just a rule I follow.

shirohniichan

who ever has the coin sets the price

EXACTLY!

MacCoin

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most of the time I'm even stupider than I pretend. but its when I buying not selling. I think its only a dollar why should I have to pay so much.

braddick

Possibly these same "stupid" collectors are so used to seeing these same Dealers with box ads in the back of Numismatic News and Coin World soliciting coins "Box them up, ship them to us for our BEST Offer."

I see no problem with asking a Dealer, if he's interested in a coin I'm selling, what his "best offer" is in person.
It seems to work in print.

Outhaul

To a great extent the collector feels that the dealer must have inside knowledge of the potential value of a coin and is afraid of short-changing himself, especially if the dealer snaps the coin up like a shot. The collector walks away feeling stupid for possibly not asking a higher price. This is by no means an excuse for a collector not doing his/her homework in ascertaining the value of what he is selling.

When you go to the dealer you expect that dealer to give you a price for a coin you would like to purchase. Same goes for the reverse. If you are not a collector and have inheritted some coins you would like to sell and you don't do your homework, don't expect to get the max price.

I'm certain that dealers get people like this looking for a "free" appraisal all the time.

Scenario 1:

Collector: How much for this coin?
Dealer: I don't know, what will you give me?
Collector: Well, YOU'RE the dealer (read seller), you tell ME!
Dealer: What's it worth to you?
Collector (sotto voce as he walks away): What a jerk.

Scenario 2:

Collector: Are you buying?
Dealer: Sure, what have you got?
Collector: Here they are.
Dealer: What are you looking to get?
Collector: What'll you give me?
Dealer: Well, YOU'RE the seller (read dealer) you tell ME!
Collector (sotto voce as he walks away with his coins): What a jerk.

How would you like scenario #1 happen to you as a collector attempting to make a purchase? Scenario #2 is pretty much how I've seen it work. Scenario #1 would not happen, but illustrates that while the collector expects the dealer to give him a price, scenario #2 shows that he (the collector) should not be held to the same standard.

Bottom line...Know your material and have the same consideration for the dealer as you would expect from him.

Just my two-cents (U.S.)

Cheers,

Bob

crito

well, I hope I never see any of you flamming KINGCOIN and his "pissing minuteman" quarter again. He knows how much it's worth and doesn't need opinions from stupid dealers so show him some respect

Aethelred

You don't have to be an idiot, just don't throw out the first number.

Clankeye

We go to a show with our Gray Sheets in hand and loupes around our necks

Shiro, I never go to a show with a loupe and graysheet. I am usually accompanied by a large entourage that includes personal trainer, agent, financial advisor, bodyguard, and a couple of female hangers-on.
I never talk to a dealer personally, I have one of my people do that for me. For instance I tell Mr. Bombay (bodyguard) "Ask this person what he wants for that Carver." Mr. Bombay then says "Mr. Clank wants to know what you want for that Carver?" If the price is too high Mr. Bombay "tightens" the dealer's tie for him until he sees the unreasonable attitude he has assumed.
Do I pretend to be stupid? Absolutely not. I have people who do that for me.

Mr. Clank

shirohniichan

well, I hope I never see any of you flamming KINGCOIN and his "pissing minuteman" quarter again. He knows how much it's worth and doesn't need opinions from stupid dealers so show him some respect

Stupid sellers speak for themselves (no flaming necessary).

Clankeye, I like your style. I can imagine Mr. Bombay approaching your mark... er, potential client, saying, "Nice table youz got heah-- it'd be a shame if somet'in' was to happen to it."

JLW

I think I've seen Mr. Clank and his posse at a couple of shows.

Clankeye

Exactly, Shiro, exactly.

Dog97

Outhaul makes a good point!
Don't be scared to speak up and and offer a number. Then the absolute worst thing that could happen is that one party makes a counteroffer or says "No, thank you."

nwcs

I think problem is that some of us are uncomfortable with the selling aspect. We're not too bad at buying, but selling isn't in our blood. We don't do it very often. Some people are born sellers. I like to use the analogy of technology. Some people don't get it and never will, some people barely get by, and others master it. Just the way it goes.

Neil

Clankeye

In all seriousness, I think Neil is exactly right. I have never been a comfortable seller. Don't know why, just know I'm not. And because I find it uncomfortable I always know what the minimum I will take for a coin is, and I want to get the negotiations over as soon as possible. I always try to set very realistic goals about what I will get for a coin, it just makes the process more streamlined.
Carl

Bear

I think you can get a good price for your coin and still be stupid........ugly too.

silverandvinyl

Both the dealers and collectors play the same game,Actually it's alot of fun untill one or the other finds out they got s----ed.Everything we do in life should be all fun and games because life is to short to fall apart.

shirohniichan

If you love to haggle, haggle away. If you don't like the game and get frustrated with buyers not telling you what they'll pay (be they fellow collectors or dealers), just tell them what you want for it. As Dog said, the worst that could happen is the other person saying "no thanks." Maybe he'll make a reasonable counter-offer. Who knows?

What is so hard about this? Why do so many people automatically assume buyers are trying to rip them off? If you say you want $50 for your coin and the buyer accepts, why do you assume that he's cheating you? The whole attitude of mistrust of others and self-righteousness gets a bit tiresome after a while.

MikeSettles

Try this:

The seller writes on a piece of paper the minimum that he/she will accept. The buyer writes the max he/she will pay on their paper. The two exchange papers with the agreement that if the prices overlap, the buyer will buy and the seller will sell at the mid price. If they do not overlap, no sale.

Nobody tips their hand first.

mr1931S

ptvetter:
>>Here is my take as a dealer, who ever has the coin sets the price, not trends not gray sheet not cu price guide. If it's my coin I set the price. If you have the coin and I want it I have to meet your price or pass..

that's right...no one ever made any money from a price guide except the publisher of the guide...
as a seller figure out how much you want for the coin(s) and hold firm...
if a dealer passes...go to another one...until you get your price...
if you get your price don't second-guess yourself like,"could i have gotten more?"


being wishy-washy whether buyer or seller can be an expensive habit...

coinguy1

To you non-dealers - don't be ashamed for playing dumb. Dealers sometimes play dumb with each other in similar ways.

Occasionally, any one of a few different dealers will come up to our table with a neat coin and say "I have no idea what this is worth, what can I get for it?" I love it when that happens ...... I then say, "surely you must have some idea what it's worth" and the dealer might say "no, not really". At that point, if, for instance, it's a coin that I think is worth $5000 I'll say something like "would you sell it for $2000?" The dealer quickly says "no, that's too low", to which I'll reply "ok, we've now established that you know it's worth/you want something in excess of $2000".

I'll continue with this little game, gradually (or maybe even quickly) upping the number until the dealer eventually quotes me a price, after being forced to admit that he did indeed have some idea as to what his coin was worth. The same guys seem to do the same thing over and over again and I call them on it each time. I can play stupid too. It's just that I prefer not to.

Elcontador

Agree with the poster that said he doesn't like selling things. The last time I spent a lot of time haggling for an item, it was 1980. I was in a souk in a village in the Sahara Desert, and I spent over two hours with a merchant haggling about a Berber rug over mint tea. I carried the rug with me across Morocco, southern Spain and Portugal.

I don't sell many coins, but the last time I did, it was a MS 64 BN PCGS Classic Half Cent and I sold it at Long Beach. I know the copper guys, so I asked their opinions re what they'd pay, why and what they thought it would go for on E-Bay. In my mind, I then decided to offer it at a price in the middle of all of these numbers to various dealers. One accepted, the coin was his, and the following week, he sold it.

Don't be embarassed to tell a dealer what you want for the coin. Typically, they want to hear from you first. They'll either accept your number or not.

Gilbert

Come on Shiro. I don't think its being stupid. More often than not, the dealer (that is in ALL my experiences) offers the lowest price he thinks he can get it for.

Then there is the "great latitude, etiquette and respect" one must show all dealers. How many threads have there been about how we low-life collectors are supposed to treat dealers on the bourse. It is not impossible nor impropable to infer that if you were to ask for the retail cost of the coin you intend to sell, you're going to get laughed off the bourse. Of course this is an exaggeration, but, many of us are victims of this whole mentality.

So to cut the crap we ask the dealer what he will pay, particularly when the affair is set up (in the case of those with signs indicating what they will buy) for the collector to ask what the dealer will pay.

The dealers business is buying and selling, and in the buying part, he knows what he is willing to spend. Why should the collector have to fish around for his offer. I will admit that I ask for what I felt was satisfactory money and two separate dealers offered more. That is two out of who knows how many other transactions.

Most of the time, what I want is never paid, even if the dealer has to shave of just a couple of dollars. To me, it is more efficient for the dealer to make the offer, and I can accept or decline. I mean, they are essentially running the show (business), how ever you would like to put it.

beorn

here is how i like to conduct a transaction.....dealer has a price on a coin...i counter offer and remark on his parents martial status at the time of his birth... dealer counters my offer and comments on my sisters virtue or lack thereof...this continues until we agree on a price or one of us runs out of relatives

shirohniichan

Come on Shiro. I don't think its being stupid. More often than not, the dealer (that is in ALL my experiences) offers the lowest price he thinks he can get it for.

If you don't want to get low-balled, why not just say what you want for the coin?

You don't have to kowtow to dealers, just treat them as fellow humans and not leeches. If you think the guy's going to try to rip you off, DON'T DEAL WITH HIM! If you do, you'll always feel like you've been taken advantage of, even if he pays you over going buy prices.

Most of the time, what I want is never paid, even if the dealer has to shave of just a couple of dollars. To me, it is more efficient for the dealer to make the offer, and I can accept or decline. I mean, they are essentially running the show (business), how ever you would like to put it.

That's true-- but only you know what will make you happy.

What drives me crazy are the so-called sellers who don't know what they want for a coin. They're not pretending-- they really don't know. They'll ask, "What will you give me for this?", but they're never satisfied with what you quote them, even if it were 200% of Trends. They seem not to know what they have, but they're sure it's worth all the money plus a little extra. They know what ordinary coins in that grade go for, but their coins are always special in some way only they understand.

When a dealer says, "I don't know what this one is worth-- what'll you offer me for it?" on some coin I collect, I politely tell them to think about it and let me know when they have an idea. It's not my job to guess for them. I follow up when I see them again to see if they've come up with a price. If it's something I'm seriously interested in, I'll point them to prices realized from recent auctions or some other pricing tool. If they never make up their mind I let them keep the coins.

UncleJoe

Shiro, If someone goes into a coin shop (big sign out front WE BUY COINS) and asks how much will you give me for my coins? Is that person wrong?

Now, if the dealer says how much do you want? (the coins are worth wholesale $200.) and the guy replies $50., should the dealer buy them for $50. or should he possibly do a more honorable thing?

Joe.

shirohniichan

The question originally came from a fellow collector's story about him trying to sell coins to a dealer at a show, so I wasn't originally addressing an uninformed guy coming into a shop off the street.

If it were some uninformed person asking how much his coins were worth, I'd do as my favorite dealer does-- tell him what he buys the coins for and what he sells them for.

If someone comes in and says, "I need $50 for these," what should the dealer do?

vam44

There`s no pretending with me...Hey! Wait a minute...