What's this twenty cent piece worth?

darktone

I just got this on-line. I kind of thought it looked over dipped from the scan but it seemed cheap enough but when I got it I realized it is hairlined and has glue or something similiar on the date yet it is not too bad looking. I am debating whether to ask for a refund or a discount. Thanks mike

BigD5

Cleaned au? $120? Maybe less. How's that sound?

Placid

A little low. I think you could get $130 on eBay for it.
It's not a s/s is it?

berylcoin

To me, it all depends on how it looks in hand. Based on your desciption and pic I'd think VF money might be fair, but definitely not EF.

How much did you give?

davefperry

VF-20. $75 seems about right.

darktone

Thanks guy's, I gave about $180 for it. Placid I don't see an S over an S on the mint mark with a 10x loupe or does this vatiety call for higher magnafication? Also is the 8 in the denticles variety very noticable I looked for that also but there is the glue type substance in that area making it hard to see. mike

darktone

after looking at the junk on ebay and the past auctions on ebay I don't think I did too bad! Take a look what $200 will buy you there. I think the coin I got is au-58 with hairlines from cleaning and still has a ring of luster on the obverse and no hairlining on the reverse with good luster. I think I will keep it and give it an acetone treatment to get rid of the glue on the obverse. mike

TheNumish

I think you guys have been too harsh on this coin. It looks like a decent AU to me. Anything under $250 and it's a good buy.

Trime

Its a bit hard to grade this coin by the picture . I can't tell what kind of stuff is at the left base and over the date. If it is not imbedded into the surface it might clean up with some careful attention.
Of coincidence, I reviewed last evening my 3 1875-S mint state (64,65,66) LS 20c pieces.
2 of the three were Variety 3 875/5 in denticles, medium clear repunched mint mark( This is the s/s $ variety). 1 was the variety 1 (filled S). If you are in to the details of LS 20C, there is a wonderful article by Kenneth Hill in Volume 4 ,pp 328-33 of the Gobrecht Journal on the varieties of the 1875-S. It has great photographs and descriptions. The different forms of the S can be seen easily with a loop and with the naked eye if you know what to look for. For the misplaced portions of the dates you need the article and a 30 power microscope to appreciate the tops of dates in the denticles. After you have studied the placements and descriptions then you know what to look for. If you enjoy attribution of varieties I strongly recommend you join the LSCC (Liberty Seated Collectors Club. This is the absolute greatest value you can find in Numismatics and for a few $ you get the current issues of the Gobrecht Journal and for a few more the 4 available volumns of the bound back issues. They are the source of fantastic information.
Regarding the value, lets say about what you paid for it. For personal enjoyment this short lived series is one of my favorites.
Enjoy!

darktone

TheNumish- I agree with your assesment of the coins value. After taking a look to see what's out there I have found nothing comparable for under $200 and I really have not found anything nicer without going into ms graded coins.

Trime- I am looking for varieties right now. Is there any pictures available on-line of these varieties? Thanks for all the info and hopefully I'll be reporting back with one of these varieties.

Trime

Dark tone,
I PMed you with an offer to send you the article. I wish I knew an on line site that gave detailed variety information with high quality photos (scans) on LS coins. There is only one problem with the LSCC Gobrecht volumes; they do not have an index for the individual volumes nor a compendium of all volumes.

Trime

Darktone,
One other thing. Blow up your scan on the obverse at the bottom where you cut off the denticles and reverse at the mintmark. Maybe we can attribute it that way.

darktone

Trime, thanks I will try to get some close up pictures tonight.
mike

dorkkarl

most common issue in cleaned au, value as VF+

K S

darktone

Trime here's some close up pictures. date , mint mark. mike

lordmarcovan

Looks a solid AU to me. Cleaned or not, I don't know. I'm terrible at judging. Looks like a "maybe" to me. Still a nice-lookin' coin, though.

Elcontador

There's wear on Miss Liberty's head, & a little bit on the breast feathers, so an AU grade seems reasonable. However, it has been cleaned & has some environmental damage. I'm not a 'varieties' guy, so I'll pass on that. If you want it slabbed, you'd probably have to get in net graded at ANACS. PCGS & NGC would bag it.

Trime

Mike,
The rev appears to me to be a clear S variety (Variety 4). Variety 1 is large filled S; Variety 2 is large repunched mint markVariety 3 has the dollar sign S due to the repunching of the slanted S. I am still unable to visualize the obv date and denticles well enough to confirm that there is a tip of a 1 in the top of the denticles below the left side of the 8. Can you blow it up more?

originalisbest

I would have to agree that most of the folks being tough on this piece are being really too harsh. Cleaned or not and to what degree (lightly, not too bad? Heavy, I wouldn't choose it?) could better be answered with an in-person examination. But, if I owned this piece and someone offered me VF trends for it they would be laughed out of the room. As you saw for yourself, take a look at the typical quality you'll see offered in this series and that should change your mind about this coin. A judicious dip in acetone (or even perhaps better, send it to NCS) might prove very worthwhile.

darktone

Here's a closer shot of the date. LINK. Thanks mike

Trime

Mike,
You have done your best with the scans; there is enough stuff (grime or just discoloration) in the denticles to prevent a perfect look but the obverse doesn't look like any of the photos of the 4 varieties in the Kennith Hill disertation of varieties of the 1875-S 20 cent piece. The variety 4 in should have the top of the one of the misplaced date continue in the space between the denticles that are identified by a line downward from the inside of the left circles in the 8; in addition the mint mark appears to be a little farther from the feathers than that of the variety 4. Thus this may be an additional variety. As I indicated in my PM I would be happy to send you the article. 8 pictures are worth a thousand words, etc.
Now for most of the crowd on this forum , this discussion of varieties must seem pretty far out (unless it means some $ return), and maybe it is but so is this whole infatuation with pocket change. I must emphasize that I am not a true expert in varieties of LS coins just an interested "student". I was hoping that one of the real experts would be lurking in the background and pitch in. If your curiosity is really turned on send the print outs of your scans to John McClosky (Editor, Gobrecht Journal, 5718 King Arthur Drive Kettering, Ohio 45429) and ask if he can help; I suggest that you pay the nominal fee to join LSCC; it is well worth it.
Now thinking out loud , I can't help but puzzle about the issues of misplaced date. Hill says that " 50% of all of the 1875-S twenty cent pieces that I have seen have extra digits punched into the denticles" How could this have happened in 4 varieties. It doesn't seem logical that such mistakes would have happened repeatedly.
Best wishes,
Last note: try the acetone and then if still required a very light dip on your coin.

dorkkarl

hey darktone, how are you getting those closeups? microscope?

K S

darktone

Trime, thanks for all the research on my coin! I will try to do the acetone bath on it this weekend and hopefully it will uncover the denticles some. I will pm you my address. thanks again! mike

karl, this is the method I try to tell everyone about because it's so simple- all I do is tape a cheap loupe to the end of my Sony mavica digital camera's lens and you can really zoom in close! it really does work. mike

Trime

Mike,
Good luck and I think you will have fun with the information.

Trime

Mike since I am on a roll with this 1875-S twent cent piece I am going also to send you a chapter on the same coin in Kevin Flynn's 1997 book "Two dates are better than one: a collectors guide to misplaced dates" Flynn lists a 5th variety not described in the 1992 article by Hill.