Is it ok to ask them if the dealer says 'not interested'?

JD

Several times while in a coin shop folks have walked in wanting to sell coins & currency. Sometimes the dealer buys a few pieces, sometimes he says 'not interested', other times the price offered doesn't interest the seller. Needless to say, I never interfere.

My question is...is it ok to approach the same people, outside, after they leave the store to ask to be allowed to make an offer on the stuff the dealer didn't buy?

If you are a dealer with a store front and you saw a customer do this after you had had your chance how would this make you feel?

agentjim007

Ask the dealer if its OK and offer to give him a few bucks if you buy anything. I worked in a shop and I can tell you that really pisses off dealers unless you handle it properly. He might not say anything to you if you do it on your own but you got his last best price if you do.

edited to say a few bucks should be around 10%

1956Quarter

This can be a two edged sword. It depends on the dealer. In my other collecting interest, I knew a dealer that came right out and said to never ever ever approach a person selling that came into their store, even if they don't strike a deal. His reasoning was that even if they don't strike a deal on that meeting, the customer might always come back, especially if the other dealers turned them down or low balled them as well more than he did. Also, he's the one with the store front, and paying the expenses of keeping the business there and running etc etc etc etc ad nausieum. However...... I was there once when a load of stuff was behind the counter. I asked if it was for sale and they said no its was being offered to them, and they had their offer refused. While I was still there, the customer came in to pick up their stuff. I quick jotted down my number and name on a paper and left by the back door. In the parking lot I quickly approached and gave them the paper and said call me. I was not quick enough and the store owner came out and saw me. He scolded my rear end good in the store, and I bluffed my way out of it by saying that the guy asked me if I was interested and I told him no I didn't collect those. I figured that it was none of the owners business, they low balled they guy and lost, now he is fair game. The customer called me about 4 weeks later, and we struck a deal. It was then that we found out that the store owner had secretly kept some items without the customers knowledge under the pretense that it was for an appraisal fee. So, you never know who's taking who to the cleaners. If you can get a good deal off the store property, go for it.......

agentjim007

The only thing that dealer did wrong in your story 1956 was taking the items. It is his store , he does pay the rent and you wouldn't even be there if he didn't. Most dealers will say no for the reasons 1956 make, and I don't blame the dealers. The only time I did anything like that was at a show . The dealer said no I was at the table and asked the dealer if I could buy it, he said he didn't care but I believe he did until I threw some money at him. He was surprised and truely had no problem with it after that.

jdimmick

I usually will never interfere in side a place of buisness, unless I know the dealer and he passes on the items, and gives me the okay to look and or buy.

Sometimes, I had to bite my tongue though out of respect for the dealer. Especially when it is something that I really wanted.

I have been at out of state coin shops in the past, where the dealer is really trying to stick it to someone. On several occasions I have tried to get the person's attention, step on his feet, casually bump him, etc. Then catch him/her outside and either let them know the real value, and if I was intrested offer to purchase.

MacCoin

in or outside of the shop it a big NO but a show is different. especially if the sell belongs to the club putting on the show. that means the deal is the guest.

keets

in a general way there really should be nothing wrong with approaching someone outside if a shop owner has already decided not to deal with them , but there's always the chance of retaliation down the road so i think the prudent thing is to talk it over with the owner first. and even then there is the risk of the owner copping an attitude and dishing out some punishment for act's uncommitted as yet. people are funny.

the local shop owner has passed on offers while i've been in his shop and then suggested to the seller that i may be interested. pretty cool and generous of him. i do know one thing for sure. i spend a lot of time in that shop and even though me and the owner are friends, i give ground when a customer walks in. i just busy myself flirting with the help, snoozin' susan!!!!!! it seems that common sense and general courtesy go a long way in coin shops as much as they do in life in general.

al h.

truthteller

Bad etiquette to ask the customer to quote the deal, inside or outside the store. You were in his shop, and gleaned the information about this customer from his store. It's like being a spy trying to nab a deal at the owner's expense. For example, I am an attorney, go to another attorney's office on a deposition, overhear a big corporate deal in the other office, later call the potential dealmakers and offer a better deal. Espionage? YES!!! Immoral? YES! Illegal? No.
Or this example, I am your friend, work at your workplace, see some important information on your desk, go look, but not take, some important key numbers on a deal. Then go to the boss and present those numbers, screwing you out of time, work, effort. Immoral? YES! Illegal, NO! Just because you can justify your actions, it's still wrong!!! MY 2C.

TRUTH

gemseeker

Truthteller - What you said is very true. However there is never 100% following of the letter of the law. Otherwise, our jails would be empty.

ldhair

Only if the dealer offers you the deal. It's his store. I like the idea of asking the dealer and offering to pay him a cut. I want the dealer to like me. Future deals are at stake.

lordmarcovan

This question never even occurred to me until about ten years ago, and I got cussed out for exactly that same circumstance. The dealer, red in the face and spluttering and slobbering, threw me out of his shop.

He was right, I guess, and I was wrong, but ignorant of the etiquette. He could have been a bit more tactful with me in explaining what I'd done wrong, first, and he lost about $200 in sales because I was there to buy a lot of numismatic books from him.

I was not really interested in the coins the lady had brought in, either, but I gave her my telephone number in an offer to help her identify and sort them. (Not knowing I was breaching etiquette, I did this right in front of the dealer.) The coins she had were almost all low-value world coins, and the dealer had not only refused them but didn't even want to look at them. I might have bought a few of them if she had ever met with me, but since some of the dealer's profanity was directed at her, as well, she hightailed it out of there and was never heard from again.

Outside a dealer's place of business, anything goes.

lincolnSence

what am I missing here? A dealer says "no, I'm Not interested" and you people think its impolite to say maybe I would be interested???????????? Hogwash!!!!!!! This from the same forum members who probably endorse sniping software I bet. If a dealer is not interested, then he has no right to say anything. The polite thing to do however, would be to take it outside of his shop. No means no in my book. Any dealer who would be offended is out to lunch. He wouldn't be selling you anything that he just passed on anyway. What am I missing????

nwcs

I agree, I see nothing wrong with talking to the other customer outside their shop. It's not any different than referring another to the shop in another circumstance. Unless I'm being paid by the dealer, I'm in a conflict of interest. It's fair to let the shop owner have the first glance, but afterwards (especially outside) it's fair game.

Nic

One should never get involved... in ANY way...with a deal begun by any other. This would apply to both buyers and sellers IMHO. Unless either seeks YOU out. K

truthteller

Obviously, those who think it's OK to swipe customers and customer information never owned a business or had any business ethics. I guess it's OK to stand in front of ANY store or wait inside or outside and ask any customer who comes in for deals, right? Sounds like gypsy ethics, hey, but it's OK, at least you're not killing anyone, right?

TRUTH

SarasotaFrank

grrr, growl, grumble.

First off, at least in my experience - the shop owner is your friend. Of equal importance - especially collectors of the caliber who frequent these forums - you are the customer who spends your hard earned dough in his/her store.

With that said, I have to chuckle at the comments in this thread talking about a dealer "cussing someone out".

I must say, my response would be something along the lines of "who the %$^&# are you?"

I can easily see a scenario where I am in either of my dealers shops and a guy comes in with stuff that the dealer is not buying - prior to the customer leaving I would have absolutely no problem blurting right out - "(Mr Dealer) is there anything there I collect"

He would know what was coming and knowing my dealers as I do, I would get a truthful answer. If the answer was yes, I would also have no problem saying - "I might be interested, mind if I take a look?"

What's he going to say? No? If he did, I would classify him as out of his mind considering the amount of money I spend, as well as the friendship I extend to my dealers. For example, when I am a seller, I rarely, if ever take cash. I will either trade, or tell them to thumb tack the receipt on the bulletin board and run my tab. I recently did this with $1000 in raw coins. I know I will run against it in a few weeks - and it's no big deal.

I can see no reason to sneak out the back door and try to make a deal, as it implies doing something underhanded.

I was in my dealers shop a few weeks ago and a guy came in with a shopping bag full of Prestige sets - ordinary stuff, but I had not yet found a 96 set. The dealer low balled the guy, buying a dozen or so sets for about $500.00. I asked him if he had gotten a 96 in that purchase after the guy left and he said he had, and sold it to me for full price. I didn't b*tch and complain about the fact that he paid about half that for it. Sometimes it just works out that way.

I understand about running a business, and meeting the expense - I've been doing it for over twenty years. Not being in the coin business, I can't comment on the dealers perspective, but I can from a customer perspective. Without customers - you have no business - it's rule #1.

Pardon my rambling, I just find the abusive dealer stories humorous.

mr1931S

At the last show i attended i spent a little time going through a dealers box of old checks looking specifically for some that might have been signed by Peter McFarlane who was a prominent man in Colorado mining history in the latter part of the nineteenth century and early twentieth century.i didn't find any McFarlane checks there but later happened to visit a table where the dealer was involved in a discussion with a man who was trying to sell some old checks,about nine of them in holders,that were signed by,you guessed it,Peter McFarlane!

The dealer didn't seem to be all that interested in purchasing these checks but he did ask the man how much he wanted for them and was told,"I haven't really thought about it." Talk about killing your chances for a sale.Anyway,i was tempted to ask him there at the dealers table if he would sell me a few of the checks but didn't do so.And they weren't offered to me either even though i expressed some interest in them.

The question is would i be out of line by purchasing these checks,if offered,in the view and earshot of the dealer?

stman

I feel it is not ethical to make any kind of deal in someone's shop or outside the back door. When I'm in my favorite local dealers shop and someone comes in to sell if I'm not looking at coins to buy I step off to the side. None of my business and I don't even look. I feel sometimes people like privacy when selling. They could have had a death in the family or anything else happen.

And I know the dealer appreciates how I handle the situation. Maybe that's one reason when I sell him something he will give me back what I paid for it. I don't expect this but maybe there is a reason for it and the fact I've been dealing with him for 20 years off and on.

I have had people come up to me in his shop and say you seem to know Morgan's, as I was looking at some. They did not like my dealers offer I guess and asked if I was interested. I told them to go to McDonalds and try and sell them.

IMO, I feel it's pure greed to try and chase someone out the back door and try and strike a deal with them. This is just how strong I feel about all this.

truthteller

Mr. 1874,

At a coin show, it's a different story. Deals are struck up all over the bourse floor. Etiquette applies only at a table. If a dealer passes on a collection, wait for the person to leave the table, then tell the customer that you have an interest in his collection. AFTER he leaves the table, all deals are fair game. Then walk to an empty table or area and do your deal. At some shows, there will be signs that say only deals can be done with attending dealers. When that happens, no 'side dealing' is acceptable and you may be asked to leave.

TRUTH

agentjim007

Those that think it is OK to do a deal outside a shop have never worked in or owned a shop. You should go to K-mart and start asking people if they have a coin collection to sell you. You want all the "no's" filtered out by grabbing coin collection sellers that walk in (then out) the door of a "Coin" shop that isn't even yours. Walking out the door is no solution that door wouldn't even be there if this guy didn't pay the rent. I can tell you from experiece most owners sit there many hours for that guy to walk through the door and it's not alright to snipe that customer because the coins weren't purchased at that visit. Many sellers shop around and come back (read that part twice and let it sink in). The deal is not over because it wasn't bought that visit. If you spend alot of money in a shop and something leaves that you wanted tell the owner if he happens to buy it you want first shot. Live with the fact you might not get every coin you want, at what you think should be some bargain price because you just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

agentjim007

I'm a seecret agent I have to scare you,

agentjim007

I did own one and sell one probably about a year ago. It was a nice coin.

nwcs

To those who would find it unethical (and I would ask for a rational basis for it) to approach a person after they left the store to purchase items the store owner wouldn't, is it ethical for a person to go out of the store and buy the item the person just purchased for a higher price? Would the dealer have a hard time with that? Come on! It happens every Christmas when someone gets the toy of the moment and parents are out bidding each other for the piece of junk. Remember the "tickle me elmo?" transformers? gi joe? Same story. So how is it different to offer the person more money for what they bought than to offer them money for what didn't sell? Isn't this the same thing that some FORUM MEMBERS ADVOCATE when they suggest that when an item doesn't sell on ebay to send the seller an email and see if they'll sell it for less than min bid? (assuming min bid was high)

There is no ethical problem. The ethical problem is if the transaction was on store property, if it was a misrepresentation, or an apparent conflict of interest. The only issue here is one of courtesy.

agentjim007

Man nwcs you can type but you just can't read.

keets

..........uh oh. it sounds like we're on the cusp of another dispute.

al h.

nwcs

OK, then I ask for one thing simply:

Using a rational basis, explain the ethical delimma and why such a practice as I've described is a breach of such ethics?

agentjim007

What ethical delimma are you talking about? Tickle me elmos? You offering more once the coin left the shop? Read First post, page two, until you get it. tickle me elmos. profits have been made by store owner if you got to have one pay more. offering more when coin leaves the shop? profit has been made by store owner, rent payer, tax payer, advertisting payer, employee payer, pay more if you want everything else is clear in post at top of page...read it. Not only would someone be black balled for doing this in my shop I would contact all my compitition and give them the heads up. Do it the way I said, just ask for first shot and everything will be fine.

SarasotaFrank

Jim:

10(b)4 - Know your customer.

If I am in a shop and a seller comes in, if he has anything of interest to me - my shop owner knows it, and will buy it to sell it to me. If he passes, he might very well tell the seller "Frank is a Walker (or Morgan, or Mercury) collector - he might want some of that." I doubt either of my shop owners would be hesitant to do so.

Like I stated previously, I would have no problem asking the dealer, while the customer was still there "anything in there I might want?" and I doubt I would have a problem buying any of it for what the dealer would have paid.

Treating "the shop" as a realm where the dealer will oust those he perceives to have commited some impropriety is the quickest way to write the next chapter in your shop's history - that chapter would be chapter 11. No business lives without customers, and as you tick them off, one by one, they go away and don't come back.

nwcs

So what you're saying is that this is not an ethical issue, but a courtesy issue, right? If it is not an ethical issue, then I don't really see the problem. I think being courteous is great, and I am, but if it isn't unethical to approach someone off of store property then what is the problem?

I re-read the first post, here is what they asked:



<< <i>My question is...is it ok to approach the same people, outside, after they leave the store to ask to be allowed to make an offer on the stuff the dealer didn't buy? >>



Several said it is bad etiquette (courtesy). You implied that it was bad manners. One said it was immoral (which is similar to unethical), but didn't explain how. Another said that no one should interfere ever. Another said:



<< <i>Obviously, those who think it's OK to swipe customers and customer information never owned a business or had any business ethics. >>



which implies an ethical concern on the thread. Another said:



<< <i> feel it is not ethical to make any kind of deal in someone's shop or outside the back door >>



and they are entitled to their feelings, but it still raises the issue of ethics. Which is where I indicated that I want a rational explanation for why it is unethical for person a to approach person b outside a shop to discuss a deal that was not completed. If there was an implied contract (unilateral or bilateral) between person b and dealer then it is unethical and illegal. If there was a business relationship or contract between person a and dealer it is unethical and illegal. But when there is an absence of contracts and agreements, it is open for dealings. It is discourteous, I think, to do this but not unethical.

Neil

keets

hello frank

i've had experiences just as you described. it seems some shop owners are very territorial and they have fences that that extend beyond any reasonable boundry. oh well. those are the ones i don't bither with.

al h.

agentjim007

Sarasota Frank. I agree with first part. The dealer makes the call, he knows you and wants to offer you the deal thats a different story. I assure you dealers in the same town talk. They are usually better friends than you think. They ask if they've seen a collection, about someone they think might have stole something or if someone is taking their business. You'll never know your black balled you just won't get the best prices anymore. You may wish that jerk dealer will go out of business, protecting his business from a sniper won't do it allowing customers to take his business will.

agentjim007

Keets, any of you guys I don't know what you do and don't care, but if someone followed you around offering each of your customers to do your job for less money you'd be pissed. If not allowing you to steal my business keeps you out of my shop how is that a bad thing?Once again from experience, the real players with money wouldn't think of doing this, it's the cheap skates.

agentjim007

OH YA, my customers are convicted felons so if anyone wants to follow me around and steal my customers (its OK they would steal from you) let me suggest a bullet proof vest.

IrishMike

This is nothing like an Ebay Auction where the coin didn't sell and you contact the seller. This shopowner as agentjim mentioned has made an investment in this business. For whatever reason this customer went to his business establishment. I would never consider it ethical to solicit someone who I met or observed at his shop. I am not sure I would feel comfortable approaching a customer at a show either, given the scenario presented for the checks. I didn't pay a bourse fee to sell. I would leave the dealer a list of what I was looking for and ask to call me the next time. Maybe he can work out a consignment deal with the seller.

nwcs

<< <i>Keets, any of you guys I don't know what you do and don't care, but if someone followed you around offering each of your customers to do your job for less money you'd be pissed. If not allowing you to steal my business keeps you out of my shop how is that a bad thing?Once again from experience, the real players with money wouldn't think of doing this, it's the cheap skates. >>

I've seen it happen many times in my business realm. And that is why you do a contract. So you have a basis for a complaint against them. If there is no contract, then who cares? Remember, in this scenario the seller of the coins IS THE ONLY ONE WHO MATTERS. If they are entertaining bids for their items, it's their problem -- not the dealer's. If they are not entertaining bids, then the seller of the coins can complain. The dealer is simply another person who is a potential buyer. No different than if I had football tickets and wanted to sell them and the first person offers $20 or are not interested and the next person says $30. The seller is not obliged to sell to the first person because there is no implied contract. If the first person said they want to buy them and the seller agreed to the price and the buyer went to an ATM and buyer two offered more it would be unethical and illegal to sell them for more because a bilateral contract exists between the first buyer and the seller. But if the first buyer is not interested, the seller is immediately free to obtain other buyers.

I'm done discussing this because this is pretty obvious. I won't continue to reply on this particular issue on this thread.

Neil

keets

hey jim

there's absolutely nothing wrong with you having your opinion on this matter, operating your business in the manner you see fit and expressing that here. when you start coming onto a thread and telling the posters in no uncertain terms why they are wrong and in effect "the world according to agentjim" you have crossed over the line, my friend.

i have had experiences with the owner of the shop i frequent which are much different than what i'm assuming transpire in your shop. that is niether right nor wrong, it just is. and it is certainly no reason for you to to imply anything about another shop owner's success or lack of same. it's a simple issue of how an individual chooses to operate. i think it relates more to the general atmosphere in a shop and the makeup of the clientele.

also, presumption of how another may/may not react as laid out in your job scenario doesn't help you make your point. ironically, what you describe happens daily in the real world. it's known as free economy competition. it only highlights a perception of you as being close-minded and unable to accept another's differing viewpoint. best of luck in all your undertakings. i hope you can understand that others who may not use your business formula may experience success nonetheless.

al h.

agentjim007

nwcs states The dealer is simply another person who is a potential buyer..
The seller did not come to you, you shouldn't even be in this.

Keets, your just an idiot you make no sense your replys are garbage. If your such good friends with your local coin dealers and they let you take their business, you should set up a card table at their shop door, like a cool aid stand, and put up a sign."IF your selling coins see me last, my overhead is less so I can pay you more". I'm sure the shop owners will even let you use their bathroom. I'm done, time to go to work.

keets

hey agentjim

if you read my reply on the first page you'll understand where i am on this issue personally and with the dealer i've mentioned. we are indeed good friends. so sorry you don't have that with some of your customers----for all i know you may. i hope you do.

as usual you've attacked when someone expresses an opinion different from yours. nothing new.

al h.

truthteller

For those who think chasing coin customers was OK, at first I was irritated, now I think it's just silly when those try to justify what's obviously wrong. Same with those folks who drive drunk and smash into another car: "it's not my fault, THEY should never have been on the road!" or those who break a product and return it to the store for a refund,"hey it was broken when I bought it 5 months ago!" I see episodes of life on the Simpsons and some replies on this thread echo the mentality.

TRUTH

keets

For all those grumpy forum members, I'm holding out my hand.........

i knew there was something fishy when i saw that.;

al h.

edited to add wink.

nwcs

OK, I lied, I'll say one more thing. I never advocated this practice we have been discussing. I have been consistent in saying it is not an ethical situation or a moral one. Personally, I would not do such a thing. Not because it is unethical, but it is impolite and more likely to create hard feelings. However, I will admit that a person who did this as their majority/sole purpose for being at the store is engaged in a bait and switch type of approach with the dealer and seller of coins. And that is wrong. But we have only been considering an isolated (at least I have) one time situation.

I went to the coin store today and asked their opinion, too. They wouldn't like it. Basically because it amounts to "not being fair." Again, an issue of politeness and courtesy. What I have been saying all along.

Neil

stman

Nwcs, I guess your last reply is fair. When I mentioned in my earlier post that I felt it was not ethical I think it all means the same thing.

Whether ethical, moral, not fair, or any other reason it's just not a good thing to do. Like I mentioned when a dealer is doing business with someone else I just step back or off to the side. So I guess you are right I do this out of politeness and courtesy that it's none of my business.

mr1931S

truthteller,
i thought about trying to make a deal with the owner of the checks in the manner you suggest but i left the table before he did and then couldn't find him.

now,if i was the owner of the checks i would track down an obviously interested person and attempt to strike a deal especially since i know how narrow the interest is in such items.

it may be that the man was hoping to hear some outrageous offer from a dealer for his checks and thats why no offer of the checks to me.i could have offered him as much or more for them as he would ever get from a regular coin dealer.

oh well.

BlueCole

if you (the dealer) were interested enough in the drop-in seller's coins to get pi**ed at me for asking about coins i might liek after you said no, why didn;t you say yes?

B.

Nic

Keets...this time your wrong. Attacking a different post by Truthteller is also wrong. K

Petescorner

Maybe my analogy is off, but in my business, I go to people's houses and offer them a product for a price.

If someone were to follow me around (in a sense, living off my "leads") and under bidding me, I would take great exception to that.

But, in the cases where I go in, and for whatever reason, elect to pass on that particular job, I couldn't care less who comes in with a lower bid, because as I've already stated, I'm not interested.

I guess the real issue to me is how sincere the shop owner is when he says he really doesn't want to buy what the person is offering. Does he really mean it? Or is he just saying that hoping to get a better deal from that person down the road? Perhaps, everyone here is correct, especially the people who say they really know their local dealers, and what they really mean when they say, "no, thanks."



edited for punctuation

LucyBop

Interesting thread, now Lucy has to end it once and for all. If the customer is trying to sell the dealer Franklin Halves, then its every man (or kitty) for himself!!!!!!!

Petescorner

Furthermore, you should care if other people come by and bid on a project, because even if you may not be interested in the project at hand, you may very well be interested in future projects. If someone else does the work, you can bet that the probability of you getting the chance to bid again is significantly lowered, at least in the example of coins.


Baseball, you're exactly right about future business, but that also goes back to how the dealer handled his "no, thank you." Did he say, "I'm not intersted in what you're currently offering, but keep me in mind for anything else you may have"? Or did he say something like "That stuff isn't worth anything." and leave it at that? At that point, he is still in control of the situation, not the person who is sitting in his shop looking to snag a deal on the side. Again, those who know their dealers best, probably know what he really meant by "not interested."

As far as my analogy, I think it was close enough based on the fact that there is a mortgage on my place of business, and my leads do come from advertising which does not get donated. I guess, I was trying to convey that when I pass on a job, it's because I really don't want it, not that I am hoping for a better deal down the road. I really haven't disagreed with anything that's been said so far in this thread, I just think it isn't always the same answer for every scenario.

Mrpawn

I am a businessman, so my view might be a little skewed from some of yours. When I am in another business I would not think of trying to deal with that persons customers on or near premises. Stealing someone elses business is unethical. Earning the business of someone elses customers through superior sevice is ethical and right. In my humble opinion if you want a chance to buy/bid on collections for sale by private parties you should set yourself up in business. Store front or ad in paper saying "I buy coins" or coins shows.

Jr

stman

Or there could be a flip side to all this and maybe someone might learn a hard lesson. Lets say if you are a person that feels it's ok to sneak outside and try to make a deal. Maybe the dealer saw something wrong with the coin that you might not see outside in a hurry without good light.

So in this case the person that might have let a little greed get to them and thought they were getting a (Rip) might learn the hard way. And rightfully so imo.

Mrpawn

stman, that is an exellent point as well.

Jr