Grade This 1921 Peace & AT or Real?

FrattLaw

I need some help with grading this 1921 High Relief Peace. I've tried but I'm often wrong by a point or two. I don't know if its a 64 but I thought it had to be atleast a MS60.

Color is hard to tell, but I think I can see some color in the fields. I'm just happy he has a return policy and alot of positive feedback.

Linky

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Michael

MW Fattorosi Collection

dorkkarl

frattlaw, regret to say: probable bad coin. probably unc details, but toning was applied to hide a cleaning.

K S

KoinKollector

AT.

Look at this action of his take a look at the VF seated dime. I looked at a few of his other auctions, most of it cleaned crap.

FrattLaw

Dang I knew it, that'll teach me to buy coins @ 4am.

Well I just have to wait to see it in person, though.

Michael

MW Fattorosi Collection

lordmarcovan

I see you went for it. FrattLaw, I don't know about the toning. Dorkkarl may be correct. However, that need not be the end of the world. It is a nice looking piece, to my eyes. A stronger-than-average strike. As you may know, the HR Peace dollars were subject to blotchy brown toning for some reason, so probably more than a few of the raw pieces out there were cleaned at some time. Big deal, I say. As long as you don't intend to slab the coin, who cares? It might not be as totally original as claimed, but that doesn't necessarily make it a "bad coin". The cameo proof Barber half in my icon was cleaned. That didn't stop it from making it into a PCGS holder. Of course, there's good cleaning and bad cleaning. (Or maybe I should say, bad cleaning and not-so-bad cleaning). It's up to you to decide which is which. AT or not, I don't hate your coin. While originality is certainly better than cleaned and/or AT'ed coins, I do think people are becoming oversensitized to the phenomenon. (A bad case of "perfectomania", perhaps. But I guess that's only natural.)

kieferscoins

I would say cleaned with some re-toning. I got a MS-62 peace (1921) for $150.00. Sorry that you jumped on the gun.

Cameron Kiefer

lordmarcovan

The one I had was an MS64 (PCGS).

Here it is for comparison. (Of the hair details, anyway. Unfortunately, I no longer have the reverse pic of mine.

Edit: Looks like yours has equal detail to mine, at least. Maybe even a slightly better strike. While am totally in the dark when it comes to grading Peace dollars and Pratt Indian coinage, and am equally bad at judging toning from a picture, it is also really hard to make any judgements on your coin because of the lighting it was photographed under.

KoinKollector

Rob,
I understand what you're saying, and I agree w/ it somewhat. For instance if it were some obecenly rare variety or something, but I try to add coins to my collection that are original as possible.

lordmarcovan

Hmm, I just looked at the Seated dime you linked to, KK. Even I can tell that that coin was obviously cleaned. But rather than call it crap, I actually kinda like it. (I know, I'm weird.) Maybe it comes from me being a detectorist. Those coins, and especially that Seated dime, have a similar look to the dug coins in my album, which I cleaned as a matter of necessity after they came from the ground. After 3-10 years of retoning in my flips, the coins have acquired that look, which is not altogether unpleasant to my eyes.

Maybe FrattLaw's purchase wasn't the best, and a better-looking original coin (maybe even slabbed) could have been had for the same price. But I have certainly seen (and made!) worse purchases.

Placid

I would wait until I saw the coin in person before making any firm decision.

lordmarcovan

Placid's statement pretty much sums up what I said in my longwinded way.

You might be pleasantly surprised. Who knows?

BigD5

I agree the coin doesn't look "right".
Rob, your train of thought is ok, until you go to sell the given coins. Frattlaw's linked Peace dollar is probably worth $75 or so. If that point has no meaning, then I guess the purchase is ok. I think he could have received a lot more coin for $150 though. With that said, I have plenty of coins sitting in my personal albums that most would deem as questionable, so I can understand your train of thought with this. I just think he could have gotten a "better" coin for that kind of money.

KoinKollector

Rob,
damnit man! stop w/ this reason stuff! . Again, I see your point & "crap" may have been the wrong word to choose. RE; the 1891-O dime, i wouldnt mind owning that coin if it was an O/S or O/O or O/O/S. Im not about that "perfectmania" myself, I would consider myself more or less a.... "purist"... yeah... that sounds good

lordmarcovan

True 'nuf. My train of thought only carries weight until resale time comes around.

I learned this the hard way, of course. Which is one reason I switched to slabs about five years ago. Not that slabs are 100% protection, but if the service is reputable, it helps when resale comes around. I had to learn that because I am usually not a long-term possessor. I often sell a year or two down the road. In 3-5 years, my holdings can change completely, with the exception of the coins only I can love, like some of my dug detector finds and the Holeys on my vest. Those are long-term. What does that say about me? I roll over my nicer stuff but hang on to the junkers year after year. LOL.

FrattLaw

I don't know, I don't want to give up so easily on this coin. I don't mean any disrepect to my more senior members who are vastly more wise then I, but I still kinda like it. Now granted, it might have be cleaned at one time, but I can't see any hairlines in the typical places. Furthermore there appears to be some rim toning, which i believe may indicate that this coin my have retoned over several decades instead of days. I did see almost exactly the same coloring on a coin in a PCGS holder recently up on Ebay. I don't even think this coin is going to be that golden when it arrives. I looked at several other auctions he has and he must set the color adjustment on his digital incorrectly. I bet it will some some luster. I hope

If by some remote chance I could get it into a NGC slab, that might be a nice purchase. I do agree with LM that this coin has excellent strike and could be a 63/64.

As for the perfectomania undertoned in this thread, I'm never one to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't like/buy/collect, but do you all really beleive that those MONSTER toned coins are all original? Or that some of the coins in your PCGS holders haven't been dipped.

All in all, I'm still glad I get to ship the sucker back for a refund if I don't like it.

Thanks for anyone's comments

Michael

MW Fattorosi Collection + 1 cleaned, not so original, overpriced 1921 Peace Dollar!

KoinKollector

<<As for the perfectomania undertoned in this thread, I'm never one to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't like/buy/collect>>

AMEN!!! You hit the nail on the head there

darktone

Michael it sure does have a nice strike for a 21 and as far as it being cleaned it's hard to tell from the scan. Post a picture of it when it arrives I am curious about how the toning actually looks. mike

agentjim007

don't sweat it, you have a return. Just make sure you use it if you don't like it.

CLASSICS

i would be very suprised if it is ms60, looks to be an au58, that has been cleaned, and now has started to retone. you do have a retun, when you receive it , if you have any questions in your mind, return it.