an extremely interesting question on grading coins
michael
Posts: 9,524 ✭✭
: this question was posted to me by the below handle of the numismatist on the ngc coin boards under my post of the monster toned proof seated dime
Coinosaurus
Hobbyist
Very cool coin, thanks for posting this. As to why it isn't a 68, I would ask, if you were at the mint
grading the coins when they came off the dies, what grade would they have been? And would you
grade them HIGHER after they toned?
I'm not saying a coin's grade shouldn't go up after it leaves the mint. Just something to think about.
HERE IS MY REPLY TO THE ABOVE INTERESTING QUESTION WAHT DO YOU THINK???????????????
for me most all coins coming off the dies at the mint i would grade ms67 and above not all but most all
for me if a coin is a 65.99 and has monster toning i would call it a 66
if a coin is a 66.99 and has monster toning i would call it a 67
if a coin has monster toning and is a 67.99 i may or may not call it a 68 depending on the series and age of the coin half the time yes half the time no
if a coin is a 68.99 and has monster toning it is never a 69 coin
and to me there is no such thing as a 70 coin
sincerely michael
Coinosaurus
Hobbyist
Very cool coin, thanks for posting this. As to why it isn't a 68, I would ask, if you were at the mint
grading the coins when they came off the dies, what grade would they have been? And would you
grade them HIGHER after they toned?
I'm not saying a coin's grade shouldn't go up after it leaves the mint. Just something to think about.
HERE IS MY REPLY TO THE ABOVE INTERESTING QUESTION WAHT DO YOU THINK???????????????
for me most all coins coming off the dies at the mint i would grade ms67 and above not all but most all
for me if a coin is a 65.99 and has monster toning i would call it a 66
if a coin is a 66.99 and has monster toning i would call it a 67
if a coin has monster toning and is a 67.99 i may or may not call it a 68 depending on the series and age of the coin half the time yes half the time no
if a coin is a 68.99 and has monster toning it is never a 69 coin
and to me there is no such thing as a 70 coin
sincerely michael
0
Comments
<< <i>and to me there is no such thing as a 70 coin >>
This clears it up- Michael is NOT behind ICG, ACG, or PCI!
IMO, it seems that the NCG will elevate the grade of a borderline coin if it has really nice toning. The PCGS usually will not and grades primarily by technical merit alone.
I am curious as to why you feel that a borderline coin in the very lofty grades should not grade higher by toning that creates exceptional eye appeal.
Sorry, your post made no sence to me. Coins coming right off the "presses" wouldn't have toning. A coin can grade 70 if it deserves it, and to say you would grade them all 67's just leaves me wondering why you would even say this? And toning to me is always a distraction. It isn't there when the coin is minted and as such to me it is a downgrade characteristic to an original coin. I can see how some people could consider it as part of the eye appeal characteristic in grading a coin, but I prefer them as close to how they were created as possible. In addition, I do know someone capable of grading to the tenth. Seems hard to believe, but I do. Bottom line, they would NEVER grade better than the day they were minted IMHO.
Too many variables and too inconsistent for my tastes.
Give me a nice circulated example any day. (By the way, it saves me an awful lot of money)
One man's opinion. Joe.
BAseball - no, its not me (I wish). This guy is fantastic, but he is 125% dedicated to coins. I wish I had his interest and focus (it's actually scary at times). Consistently to the tenth - well 80% of the time I would wager.
UncleJoe - ultimately I think you have the right answer. I just want to get through one registry set to say I did it and then move on to just the coins.
THANKS THANKS
now lincoln man i think you misundersottd what i said and i will try to make myself clearer also the question had two parts i am not so fol,.ish to think that a coin is toned when it leaves the dies! part one of the question was that waht do you gradwe the coins straight from the dies and the other question was how would i grade these coins if they were toned? now of course it would take time after the coins came from the dies for the toning........lol i am sorry that i didnot spell it out asnd i will do so now many complazin on here that i am too long winded then when iu make it short ,,,,,,,,,, lol well i guess if you try to please everyoine you please no one...................lol
yes coins coming off the presses have no toning....lol thanks for making that "clear" fopr me but i think you misunderstood me and that is okie!
i disagree with you there is no such thingf as a 70 coin ms or proof it is just a theorital grade to me
maybe i super nice 69 but never ever a 70
well i wasa really not grading by as tenth like i said 66.99 for example i mean waht i am saying is that lets say i specialize in a series of coins and i see a coin that is really a super duper nice 65 coin i mean right on the edge of 66 but for some reason it is a monster close 66 but not quite made it kind of like a coin you might have in a 65 holder that is super nice but not quite a 66 now if sent in this coin would come bacvk 66 and then if resubimtted a 65 because it is so close half the time 65 the other half 66 well for me lets assumew this coin is a total monster in terms of the overall look of the coin mONSTGER TONED THEN I COULD SEE IT IN A LEGIT 66 HOLDER THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING AND AGAIN IT PROBABLY EVEN IF WHITE ANDF NOT A MONSTTER TONED COIN STILL WOULD COME BACK HALF THE TIME IN A 66 HOLDER IF CRACKED OUT I EAMN THIS HAPPENS EVERYDAY! AS GRADING IS AN ART NOT A SCIENCE GET IT? SEE WAHT I MEAN? FOR ME I HAVE SEEN A DMPL 1888-0 MOERGAN IN A 65 DMPL PCGS HOLDER THE REVEWRSE IS A 66 PLUS COIN THE OBVERSE IS LIKE SUPER CLOSE 66 AND MONSTER CAMEO AND LIGHTLY BUT NOT MONSTER TONED ON THE EDGES FOR ME THIS COIN COULD MAKE 66 ONE DAY BUT I STILL THINK IT IS A 65.99 IN OTHER WORDS A LINER COIN AND SINCE IT IS NOT MONSTER TONED TO ME ONLY A NICE 65!
THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING ANS SO FORTH IN MY ABOVE POST now like i said if a 67 coin i would maybe just maybe if monster toned consider it in a 68 holder but never in the case of a 69 i mean in holders say the case of morgan dollars there are low end 65 coins and super high edn no brainer 66 coins in 65 holders i mean you hear it and see if sometimes i mean it happens everyday that is waht i meant by 65.99
i mean graduibf is an art not a science and yes the coin would have to technically be all there to be put into a 66 holder! but remember every day there are liner coins in say 65 holders gewtting upgraded to a 66 and for me that is okie as long as the coin is technivcally all there abet low end but has to have an extraordinary quality to get it into the higher holder so in a sewnce i am really more [picky then pcgs!!!!!!!!
but agree or disagree that is okie just please read more carefully and do not put words and meanings in my mouth that i didnot mean or say as TRIME HAS SO INTE;LLIGENTLY SAID but of course everyone thinks differently and i am just as at fault for not explaining myself more clearly
i guess i will have to back to long worded essays even though some do not like it on here and chastise me on here..........lol
i guess i will never ever p[lease everybody and no matter waht i say someone will take it the wrong way but i guess we are all human and a fact of life and i like the interacxtion lincoln asnd am gald you posted your point of view so i could make this more clear now if you disagree that is good but at leazst you get my reral maening hopefully behind my fisrt post onm herre!!!!!!!
sincerely michaek
l
It slides down through the counter and gets dumped into a big cotton bag with many of its siblings. The bag gets jostled around over and over and eventually marks up the coin some. Let's say it is a technical grade of MS-63 (light, but non distracting marks, nothing severe in the prime focal areas). The bag gets put in the back of the mint and is in the right place to acquire a rainbow tone. After 80 years it is opened up. The coin is still a technical MS-63, but the market will not accept the price of a MS-63 morgan for this beautiful coin. So it gets bumped up based on eye appeal. The bump can be from 1-3 grades in some cases. This is because eye appeal is the largest factor in grading these days. All the services use market grading to some extent. So this MS-63 coin, depending on the eye appeal of the tone and the location and the marks' location, may end up being MS-64 or MS-65 because the appeal is so strong.
Now, market grading can also lower a coin's grade. Let's say this morgan was a new orleans one with a weak strike to lengthen die life. After striking, the coin is as-minted so it technically grades MS-70. But the market grading might put a cap of MS-65 on it because its strike is not very good. The market expects a perfect strike for MS-70.
Neil
These questions make a great point, to me it's like asking a steel maker if rust enhances the quality of his product. The answer is of course not. Well toning is rust, just silver oxide and sulfer compounds vice iron oxide. Another reason why toning should not increase the grade of coin is because it hides flaws (e.g. scratches and light bag marks).
if the coin gets dipped and is back to so called perfect 70 it is now not straight fronm the dies and then dipped so for me by grading so called pewrfect cpins 70 you open yourself up to lots of problems if that blast white modern proof/ms graded 70 by as major slabbing service ever gets even a hint of a spot or toning dot or even the ever so imperceptable hint of haze or toning technically it is not a 70 as this is not how thew coin came strtaight from the dies and even if weakly struck 70 is still strtaight from the dies not market graded straight from the dies
i think these 70 coins currently in graded 70 holders ms and proof arer a time bomb waitingb to explode for me i really do not know anythging avbout post 1950 coinage but i could possibly see a super nice modern coin graded legit 69 be as nice or nicer than a graded 70
also the real teat is if you broke all the modern proofs ms coins out of their respective 70 holdersd would they bring at least half of the price raw as slabbed? i mean that is the real proof of this 70 mania thing the bottom line
now if a dealer thsat sells ms proof 70 coins pcgs/ngc qould at least pay 70% of the coins price raw that he sold it to me as within a week after i bought it and cracked it out of the 70 holder then that would somewhat but not completely make me a bewliever that it is the coin not the holder
i mean the porrf is in the pudding the money so to speak!
sincerely michael
Ultimately, all coins are graded in a market way. Where I would take a MS-63 and maybe bump it up to MS-64 (the way I would grade it) it might be MS-62 to someone else (their market grade). Because there is much subjective in a coin's grade (in uncirculated state), there cannot be a definitive answer on grade.
Consider a rusted, breaking apart die that struck its last coin. It's technically MS-70 after being struck. The next coin, on a new die is also MS-70 just after being struck. Assuming both were struck at roughly the same time and were preserved in a vacuum immediately after striking, which would you rather have? And would you rather have a really nice MS-65 through MS-69 coin than the rusted die MS-70. If you would, then you effectively market graded the rusted die coin to MS-64, though it is technically MS-70.
A little while back I was pondering purchasing a Texas commem. in a ngc ms/67 holder with attractive toning along the rims. I felt the coin was technically overgraded a bit, but the eye appeal probably bumped this coin a point. At this point, I have to make a decision. Is this coin worth what the dealer is asking, regardless of the number on the holder?
That's a decision we all have to make when purchasing coins. Is the coin we are purchasing worth the price we are paying, regardless of a grading opinon, and everyones answer will be different to this question.
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And sometimes the key to selling is to go to a dealer that is willing to make strong offers for eye appealing coins rather than just any local shop or auction.
<< <i>Perhaps coinguy if he is available. My question - does NGC and PCGS increase a grade from a "technical" grade of say MS 63 to MS 64,5 or 6 because of toning? I din't think so, but let me listen to others on your point. I would suggest the day it rolls off the presses its as good as that coin would ever get. Sure graders might disagree within a point or so, but its all down hill from there. Any thoughts out there? >>
Yes, PCGS and NGC will often increase a coin's grade from what it would otherwise be, due to attractive toning. I have seen some coins which have probably received an additional two points for especially pretty color/toning. Some people may have a problem with this practice but it is reality. Color is part of eye appeal and eye appeal is A major, if not THE major component of a coin's grade.
I do agree with you that in theory, a freshly minted coin should be as good as it gets for that coin. If a coin is literally a perfect MS or PF70 at the time it is struck, it certainly can't improve with age or by acquiring a beautiful patina. Practically speaking, however, at some point after being struck, nearly all coins somehow become imperfect. Once they become so, based on the way they are graded by PCGS and NGC, the grade can improve with the acquisition of pretty toning.
For example, let's say a coin from 1900 starts out as PF70 but through mishandling by a mint employee or someone who obtains it a few years later, its grade is reduced to what PCGS or NGC would call PF65, due to hairlines it has acquired. It then sits around for 100 years or so and slowly acquires a gorgeous rainbow patina. The coin is sent in for grading by NGC or PCGS and it receives a proper/accurate grade of PF66. This is not an uncommon occurrence by any means. Collectors or dealers who don't like toning might not like it or agree with it but it is a fact of life.
Having just finished my business for today at the Baltimore coin show, I am playing catch up and have not yet read this entire thread (which, at a glance, looks like it might be a very interesting one!). However, I was asked to answer the above question. I apologize, if in doing so, I have taken anything out of context or ignored anyone.
The Ludlow Brilliant Collection (1938-64)
The Fairfield 1875 trade dollar is the most perfect MS trade dollar in existance. It has full luster, slight original toning and nary a mark. The coin is technically an MS69. It is not given the grade because, even though superb, it doesn't have the fantastic eye appeal necessary to get the grade.
The Carter 1875-S trade dollar is one of the most eye appealing trade dollars in existance. It has full luster and marvelous periphrial toning (like most of the Carter coins). It has a few significant marks that otherwise would preclude the 68 grade. It is upgraded a point for the eye appeal.
Two coins that are two full grades apart on technical grade and yet they both reside in MS68 holders. You can view the coins here: Legend MS Set
If men and women were to rate each other on a scale of 1 - 70, I believe there would be some general groupings of individuals based on society's eye of beauty (which is different for different societies).
But when it comes to individuals then placing a 68 or a 67 on an individual person we would have many different results. Most rail thin women are not as attractive to me as a women with a little more meat on her bones, but for someone else the opposite may be true. So we could not agree who was a 68 and who was a 67.
Yes, I do believe this relates to coins. The technical merits of a coin are more objective to grade a coin while the eye appeal is very subjective and should not be used to grade a coin.
It is interesting to note that I looked at both coins provided by tradedollarnut and in all honesty, I like the 1875 better.
No, I am not writing that to make my point it is exactly what I thought when I looked at both scans. I do not like the 1875-S as much. A very beautiful coin indeed I just like the looks of the 1875 better. This may be a minority position but it is my opinion and that's what makes market grading incorrect because it is too subjective.
Aahhh!!! The wonders of coffee. Good Morning all.
IMHO. Joe.
Good post.
see? My Auctions "Got any 1800's gold?"
mix, kneed and roll out that dough, whether you like it heavy and thick to light and crispy, in my opinion, perfect crust makes perfect pizza, hence the coin's condition. With due respect, vegetarians set aside, what's a pizza without meat, likewise, a coin must be fully strucked. What follows next is the sauce, the seasonings and extra toppings like anchovies, mushrooms and onions. Let's call this the toning of a coin. And lastly, I personally like extra cheese or lustrous coins. So you walk into a pizza parlor and you choose to eat from the buffet. So as you look over the variety of pizza's they have, one in particular has caught your eye. With coins, the same thing happens when a coin has caught your eye. It may have been the luster or the color or the detail
of that coin that has fired up your curosity. And now you want to have a closer look as you want to know if this pizza has what it takes to compele you to draw out that money from your billfold.
And of course your very hungry but with coins, you must be careful before you buy because you don't want to end up disappointed once you get home if you have ordered "carry out". Because a coin may look different under different lighting. Or what if you find out the meat taste kind of funky, won't that ruin the whole pizza. Or maybe the there's just not enough cheese on this thing.
But even with the finest of ingredients, your not going to know how great that pizza will taste until you take that first bite or send it in to be cerified. Well, I could go on and on with this but now I'm very hungry.
Later,
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Gotta go.
Joe.
And when you factor MS-65 and MS-66, for example, what can you actually discriminatedly describe as the difference that is hard and fast and repeatable? If it is the number of marks, then what if they were arranged in a manner which made the coin appear worse or better? If it is luster, how can the eye distinguish between good and just a hair better than good? If it is strike, how much better does the strike have to be and is it measurable?
It just isn't as simple as a technical grade. If it is, then I submit that all cleaned, dipped, and conserved coins (regardless of how well it is done) MUST by definition be no greater than AU-58 in all circumstances because their surfaces are no longer as-minted and handled. I further submit that a coin that has been touched can no longer be uncirculated because it has been handled. Circulation doesn't just mean passing between a merchant and a customer. It is a measure of handling. And even minimal handling to grade is handling, therefore technically all coins that are handled by hands are no longer purely uncirculated.
That's why a truly repeatable technical system is not the final answer to the problem posed.
Neil
But the way it's set up now, there's always that agonizing question as to why a coin received a certain grade.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Cameron Kiefer
it's individual attributes and then given a "net" grade. This would have no
effect on previously graded coins. Then the market could decide on how to
adjust the various attributes as tastes and fads change to arrive at an ad-
justed net grade.
Market grading does come into play. How much so is something we can debate.
LSCC#1864
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My 1866 Philly Mint Set