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Grade this IHC:follow up coins arrived

IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
I recently purchased this cent, wanted to get opinions on the grade. Anyone want to take a shot at this coin and give me their honest opinion?

image

Comments

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,409 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can't see if there is wear from the photo but looks at least 64RB if not 65. Does it come with a reverse??image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • its4realits4real Posts: 451 ✭✭
    It's only VG - sorry...

    I'll give you $10 for it anyway image

    Okay? image
    "spare change? Nahhhhh...never have any...sold it all on E-bay..."
    see? My Auctions "Got any 1800's gold?"
  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭

    Just going by the picture, and assuming that the dark area around the third diamond is not wear, MS-64 RB. The feathers have nice detail and I don't see any marks.

    If the hair curl area abound the third diamond is really distinct, it might have a shot at MS-65 RB, but everybody says I'm too conservative.

    Looks like a VERY, VERY nice coin for that year.image
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,558 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mike,

    Please get an image of the reverse. Also, the obverse image is too dark to make a call re grade, though re color, it appears to be RB. The image is too dark so I can't see the diamonds clearly, nor can I look for carbon or irregular toning in the obverse fields. From what I can see, it looks to be in the 63 to 65 range.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    Here is the reverse, this coin is in a non-pcgs holder for the moment. I am going to crack it out for my album.

    image
  • KlectorKidKlectorKid Posts: 3,723
    album like whitman?
    image
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    Yep like in Intercept Shield Album, one of my collecting past times is too shatter slabs.
  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭

    OK Mike,

    Even though I got a BIG hint - UGLY reverseimageimage !
  • relayerrelayer Posts: 10,570 ✭

    I'd say MS64RB with a shot at 65image

    But as always, wait for somebody who knows what they are talking about.
    image
    My posts viewed image times
    since 8/1/6
  • ClarkOfKentClarkOfKent Posts: 1,285
    Brightness adjusticated:

    image


    Clark
    NMFB ™

    image
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    Thanks Clark, ok here is the story, I didn't post this coin to get a grade on it, it is net graded Uncir by NCS, improperly cleaned obverse. The point of my post was to address two other posts, one by an individual who wanted to know what to look for in problem IHC's, the other to address some comments made by those defending coin doctors. Most of us would not be able to tell that the obverse was cleaned. This is the real harm in doctoring coins.

    Edited to add: this coin cost me $149, I consider it insurance, hopefully will make me better at spotting other cleaned coins.
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,558 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It seems to be a nice coin with no major problems. I assume the luster on this coin is attractive. It depends how picky they are re carbon flecks and uneven color. There is a small carbon spot to between the rim and the Indian's eye on the obverse, and three other spots, two to the right of the base of the neck and one above the 8 in the date. The strike looks okay, and a few soft feather tips is typical for a mid-range Unc. coin. There appears to be some uneven color on the reverse; I'd say RB 64 if they're very picky, RB 65 is not.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,558 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mike,

    Just saw your post after I wrote mine. From the scan, I could not tell it was a problem coin. Most cleaned Unc. IHCs I've seen looked more pink than orange, and had no cartwheel luster. They were relatively easy to spot when up close & personal. If your coin has nice cartwheel luster, this is scary indeed & another reason not to buy raw.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    Elcontador, agree 100%, I haven't received this coin yet, but if it has the luster that it appears to have, then we all have to rethink raw IHC's.
  • WWBillmanWWBillman Posts: 900
    Mike,

    Great example. This is the very reason I will not buy raw coins anymore. The doctors have either gotten way better than me or I was never really that good.

    PS: By they way I have been lurking in other places and want to say Please don'timage
    Bill

    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
  • toothpullertoothpuller Posts: 600 ✭
    Mike, I may be seeing things, but if you look the obverse near the nose and mouth you can see a similar outline out into the field like a fluid may have accumulated briefly in that area with a cleaning. It looks like a decent coin, IMO 64RB seems reasonable. Heritage has 3-4 of these NCS net graded 60 IHCs left over from last nights internet auction [did not sell] that will be sold real cheap. Only one of them looked anywhere near as nice as yours. I will no longer even consider raw IHCs.
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    Here is one more example, artificially recolored.

    imageimage
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,558 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Okay. Compare the color on the 1889 IHC with the 1874. The former has a pinkish tone and I'll bet you it's a 'dead' coin, while the 1874 has color that appears much more natural for an Unc. RB copper coin. I'm very curious to find out how much cartwheel luster the 1874 IHC actually has. Logically, it should also appear to be 'dead' when you look at it sight seen.

    That 'fluid' could just be discoloration that you do see on some Unc. older copper coins. I would really like to see Shylock weigh in on this, as he is the resident expert on IHCs.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
    Please, I'm an enthusiast - Lakesammman corrects my humbled knowledge about IHs on a regular basis.

    As I scrolled through the thread the obverse looked natural 65RB to me, and a nice one at that. The reverse looks 64, with enough spotting to keep the total grade there. I don't see cleaning at all (?), and unless the tone is different in person I wonder if this is an assumption based only on the different conditions of the obverse/reverse.
    Paul <> altered surfaces <> CoinGallery.org
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    Remember they are Heritage pictures, should have them next week, I agree the 99 has the pink color emblematic of cleaning. The 1874 scares me a bit, if it really has been cleaned. I have a whole lot more studying up to do. Where is our former grader tonight when you need him?
  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭
    Just to play the devil's advocate for a minute. It is possible this coin is an example of how some of us may place too much emphasis on and worry too much about AT. Anecdotal, for sure, but I wonder how many "good coins" out there have been wrongly condemned to AT oblivion, degradation, humiliationimage.

    Perhap we should take a moment of silence and mourn for all those innocent victims who have been unjustly condemned as the fear of AT sweepts through the forum. Like the great witch hunts of the middle ages, the inquisitors may be all too willing to condemn the innocent. image

    OK, just a thought. Have a great day everyone.image Don't mean to stir the pot (well maybe just a little) - but I did, and still do like the looks of the obverse of the coin. Darn nice photo! And if it is an innocent victim, then I shed a tear for the poor little MS-64/65 RB darling.image
  • relayerrelayer Posts: 10,570 ✭

    This is my MS65 IHC that PCGS rained on my parade and graded MS64.
    Your's has more detail in the front feather, so if yours is not a 65 it's a very nice 64


    image
    image
    My posts viewed image times
    since 8/1/6
  • shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
    You're right Pushkin, the worst thing about retoned copper aren't the coins themselves. It's the doubt it casts on some original coins.

    Looking at this more carefully, the only thing I see on the obverse image that may raise an eyebrow is the shadow in front of the nose, lips and chin.
    Paul <> altered surfaces <> CoinGallery.org
  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭
    Mike,

    Tell you what - I'll give you $160 for it - just from the photo - no return necessary? I like it.image

    I've always had a soft spot in my heart for orphans. image

    If I made a mistake and should have PM'd this to you instead, please accept my apologies.image
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,558 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I really want to see this coin. IMO, one can normally spot a problem copper coin several months after it was played with. Another issue is that really good image of copper are few and far between. The ones I see are typically too dark.

    Paul, you may be right, but it just may be discoloration or possibly an issue with strike. I've seen this sort of thing on a few Classic Half Cents that were original coins.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    Well I will be happy to circulate it around once it gets here. Of course Paul can get a better picture of it that I can. I am thinking that maybe it will go to FUN and I get an opinion from NCS on why they bodybagged it.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,409 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Would love to see the 1874 at FUN - let's all get together for lunch/dinner and we can all share our body-bag coins...I've got a few but plan on "believing" in them and submitting now and then until certified.

    Don't forget that several of the most valuable IHC's out there were initially body bagged. It doesn't necessarily mean they are AT, it's just a nervous grading company having to guarantee it's product. I would imagine that copper is their greatest exposure. If they carry "mistake" insurance (rather than self insure) that can be a factor too - everyone with insurance is more careful these days post 9-11.

    The other looks unnatural and I would agree it's AT, especially suspicious from the 9-12 o'clock position on the obverse.

    Finally, these forums recently have tainted my perception - every coin I look at these days is suspicious... image I've gotten to the point where I welcome a spotted coin since I know it hasen't been messed withimage
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭
    The biggest issue I have with determing whether copper is AT'd or not is who are the experts? I used to be a principal investigator at one of the US Government's oldest and largest metallurgical research labs. We did a lot of playing around with different alloys and different chemical environments, and the effects of those environments on the various alloys. I know from that experience that often very slight variations in the initial conditions (atmosphere composition, temperature, exposure time, very very slight variations in the alloy composition) could often lead to extreme differences in the resulting oxidation. I don't pretend to be a coin AT expert, but I do believe that a lot of so called AT'd copper coins aren't. There are just too many different variables that many coins have been exposed to over decades that are natural. I'm not talking about the obvious AT'd techniques (Deller's and other sulfur compounds, exposure to incandescent lamps, various acidic solutions the sculpters employ, baking in oils, ...).

    I suggest that until some rigid standards are developed (and if the standards and the necessary tests are developed, they won't be cheap), the question of AT with copper will remain controversal, and in many cases problematic for a long time - most likely for the indefinite future.
  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭

    This IHC I picked up at a local coin show. I've been suspicious of it for some time - but nothing specific - any opinions?


    Suspicious
  • shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
    That's an interesting slab Mike, never saw one of those.

    With fresher eyes today I see two areas where spots may have been removed: above the M and below the R of AMERICA. I wonder if that would be enough for them to label it improper cleaning. The fact they only note the obverse could mean this coin wasn't re-toned at all, just had some obvious spot removal.

    I'm curious how a coin gets into one of these slabs. If someone submitted it to NCS, wouldn't they just return it to the owner as not a candidate for curation? Does NGC now slab their "problem" coins with the NCS label if they're submitted "grade at any level"?
    Paul <> altered surfaces <> CoinGallery.org
  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭

    Oops, some confusion.image
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    Paul from the photos it appears that there may be several spots that someone attempted to "fix". Here is the link to NCS slabs.NCS
  • paigowjohnnypaigowjohnny Posts: 4,257 ✭
    Irish...I'm not an IHC collector, but I am a victim of cleaned coins....

    When I originally looked at the scans before you gave the full story, the one thing that caught my eye was the color contrast between the field in front of Liberty's face compared with the field area within the rim lettering. I was almost gonna call it 58......but then this looks a little like the "halo effect" that a couple local dealers told me to look for wrt cleaning/poor dipping....

    It sure is aggravating....
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    paigowjohnny, good thoughts, but often red/brown IHC's have that same contrast, ones that are tampered with.
  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭

    It may be time to just sell off all of my RD and RB IHCs and just keep a nice AU collection. I don't think I trust any copper coin anymore.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,409 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pushkin:

    Give me first shot a them!!imageimage I still love 'em.

    I sent a cleaned coin to NCS recently just to see what they would do. It was a "beautiful P65" in the Heritage catalog, a "raw PVC" coin in person but a unique pattern that required Snow to revise "the book"....so I bought it, had the local expert remove the PVC, knowing it would technically be a cleaned coin. NCS is sending it back in a body bag....still love the coin though there are now 3 known.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭


    Lakesammman,

    What pattern is it? I really love some of the patterns, but except for Rick's site, they seem to seldom come availabe.

    Do you have a picture?
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,409 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pushkin:

    It's the plate coin in Snow's attribution guide, PT23, IHC broad bust, Ag. rev. with high leaf on left. If you don't have the attribution guide, let me know and I'll photo it when it returns.

    Now about those red IHC's your selling......image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭
    Lakesammman,

    Ah Yes, the 58 with the die crack w-to-r. VERY NICE!

    As for my lowly collection, will have to see how I feel after the Baltimore show today. Will one leave with a pocket full of IHCs or Liberty nickels? image Afraid the answer is predetermined.image

    Regards,
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    Pushkin, I have a couple messed with au/bu cents that I cracked out of ACG slabs for my album collection, but those are obvious to me. The little fellas now have a nice home. To me its more fun to collect raw ones than slabbed ones. Some of my raw ones are way more attractive than the 64's in slabs. The 06 and 07 are the cleaned ones, lower left.
    Link
  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭
    Thanks Mike,

    I feel the same way about many of my IHCs. Perhaps it's just a personal quirk, but in my mind's eye the 64, 65, 66, RDs and RBs should look "perfect" and they never do. I showed my 1870 RD Snow-9 to Andy Skrabalak (Angel Dee's) recently and I expected him to say, "Yes, it's OK", but he went into considerable detail about what a really nice coin it is. I just don't see it, and once the coin goes under the stereo microscope - well I find flaws everywhere!

    The XFs and AUs with their nice patinas and soft browns - I rarely find fault with them, and spend much more time admiring them.image

    Thanks for posting your coins - appreciate it. I have some that I'm sure are AT, but they are also beautiful.image

    Regards,

    Pushkin - Off to Baltimore for the day.image
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    The two cents arrived today and I have to tell you they are gorgeous to look at, the Heritage pictures do not pick up the true color. The 99 has a tan spot from 10-12 oclock, but the 74 is amazingly struck with two carbon spots someone tried to remove. My Nikon died again so I can't post pictures. I will have to send them off to our resident copper expert photographer.
  • gmarguligmarguli Posts: 2,225 ✭✭
    once the coin goes under the stereo microscope - well I find flaws everywhere!

    And why do you view your coins under this intensity? image You should enjoy your coins with your normal vision since that is that way you will see the coin 99.9% of the time.

    Any coin, even an MS70, will have flaws under a microscope. If you judge your coins while looking under a microscope, then you will find too many flaws with most of them.
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    Good point Greg, anything over 5x is overkill for grading. every coin has flaws.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,409 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ditto here too....microscope is for research, detecting doctoring, etc....enjoyment comes at arms length or with a low-power loupe.

    Pushkin - here's what every 65R should look like!

    image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    That's a beauty and a tough tough date too.
  • PushkinPushkin Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭

    Lakesammman,

    I don't know, are you sure there aren't a couple of small carbon spots on the reverse below the C and E? I'd really need to check it out under the microscope - preferably at 40X. image


    OK, OK, its a beautiful coin - thanks for sharing.
  • shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
    Mike, glad the 1874 exceeded your expectations. You certainly can't beat the price you paid and I'll take a couple small spot removal jobs over retoning anyday. Many of us probably own coins in PCGS slabs that had the same kind of work done and don't even realize it.
    Paul <> altered surfaces <> CoinGallery.org
  • ElcontadorElcontador Posts: 7,558 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lakesamman,

    Really nice coin. My MS 65 RD is an '09 and it has a more orange-ish hue to it than yours. From what I've seen, a few MINOR carbon flecks are allowed on a 5, plus a few contact marks (often on the ONE CENT of the reverse because the lettering is raised & unprotected). Some RDs in 4 I've seen actually don't have much eye appeal.
    "Vou invadir o Nordeste,
    "Seu cabra da peste,
    "Sou Mangueira......."

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