Seated Liberty Series Question

DesertLizard

Just started looking at this series as I am bored with Saints & Lib DE.

What I cannot get over is how low the mintages / pops are on some of these coins, particularly the halves and dollars yet the MS prices are very reasonable compared to many other series.

Am I missing something here? Why aren't these coins more popular? A SL dollar is truly a piece of art up there with a Morgan or trade $.

BigD5

A lot of collectors don't "get into" seated stuff. They just don't like the design. Demand stays even, if not low, and the prices reflect that.
Doesn't bother me a bit

EVillageProwler

What I cannot get over is how low the mintages / pops are on some of these coins, particularly the halves and dollars yet the MS prices are very reasonable compared to many other series.

Good observation. Seated Dollars are my specialty, and they are dirt cheap relative to Morgan and Peace dollars. I guess the supply is too low, and that frustrates would-be collectors and marketers. So, the demand is low.

Nearly the entire run of Seated material is scarce as heck relative to, say, IHC, Washingtons, Franklins and even Early Dollars. The half dimes and 20c pieces are perhaps the most widely available as a series.

If you are seriously interested in pursuing any of this stuff, PM me when you're ready and I'll see if I can help you avoid some of the learning curve.

EVP

Elcontador

Seated $s - A number of the relatively "low mintage" coins - the 59 O, 60 O, etc. never circulated. The Government sold several bags of them in the early 1960s to collectors. The cheaper ones are "hoard coins," are typically slabbed as MS 60 to MS 62, and are rather 'baggy.'

You'll notice that MS 60s are inexpensive, but they are a lot more pricey when you get to MS 63. Above that, they're very costly, assuming you can find one which is properly graded.

Seated Halves (and quarters and dimes, for that matter) - The late date Seated coinage (1879-90) had low mintages and many of them did not circulate. This is because of the Bland Allison Act, virtually all of the silver sent to the various mints was made into Morgan $s.

Because many of these silver dimes, quarters & halves did not circulate, many of them are considered to be type coins, and are readily available at all grades (even MS 66). Go to any large show, and the most common unc. seated coin will probably be the 1879, even though it had the lowest mintage of the 1879-1890 period.

lathmach

Desertlizard,
As you have realized, the Seated series of coins are quite undervalued. Collecting coins in any denomination of the Seated series could prove to be a wise decision.


Ray

shirohniichan

I guess the supply is too low, and that frustrates would-be collectors and marketers. So, the demand is low.
EVP hit on a good point-- you won't hear too much dealer hype about them because there aren't enough to stock in large numbers (especially nice AU and MS coins).

Another reasons why prices are relatively low compared with their rarity is that the half and dollar series aren't often collected by date. You won't see too many people paying high prices for rare dates just to plug holes in their albums. Most collectors buy them as type coins.

BillJones

I've never gotten beyond the type coin stage with the seated series. There are just too many date and mintmarks for me. There are also a lot of dates that really hard to impossible to find, yet you would never guess that from what it says in the Red Book or Gray Sheet. I dare say that a fair number of issues don't exist or are prohibitively rare in ANY Mint State grade, yet the listing of prices makes you think they are available. Circulated coins are around, and might be the best collector buys if you can wean yourself from the Mint State mantra.

When it comes to collecting seated dollars I think you find that it is harder than it looks if you are into true Mint State coins. There are a lot of overgraded pieces in plastic out there (AUs in low Mint State clothing), and there are a lot of coins with poor eye appeal because of cleaning or other problems. Also, while the 1859-O and 1860-O dollars are common in Unc. from government hoards, a lot of those coins are badly bag marked and not attractive.

Yes the seated series can be fun, but be prepared for a tougher challenge than you might think.

DesertLizard

As always you guys are a wealth of information!

Thank you to all.

KoinKollector

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... We gotta keep to keep this lil secret quiet

Bruggs

I had an advanced collector once tell me a very interesting yet hard to believe fact about the Seated dollar series mintages. The total mintage for the entire Seated dollar series is less than the first year mintage of Morgan dollars produced at the San Francisco mint. More to that.... you can add the Bust dollars and the few Gobrecht's and it is still less. And still more... 29 of the dates in the seated dollar series have a lower mintage than the 1893-S Morgan. Some neat facts..........

Bruggs

dorkkarl

observation: quite a few dates in the seated series, esp. quarters & halves, are actually more plentiful in BU than circ'd grades. i have literally seen xf coins from 1879-1890 sell for more than unc, because collectors wanted their sets to match. those years seem particularly difficult in very low grades. most especially, proofs are far more common than unc business strikes for some years. (no facts to back these observations up, just gut feel)

btw, i think seateds are nicer looking than morgan dollars, but never cared for trade dollars much.

K S

BillJones

What you say is true about seated material from the 1879 to 1891 era. But if you go back into the 1840s, '50s and '60's it's another story. Even high mintage coins like the 1853 with arrows and rays issues are very scarce in TRUE Mint State because nobody saved them.

dorkkarl

hey bruggs, amazing stat's! you oughtta get 1st price for post-of-the-day!

K S

michael

for me no seated liberty coins are common at all and to me are really rtare even the most "common"proof and unc mintages in the 1880's and 1890's

but for me if a so called common proof seated dime or quarter is monster toned super deeply mirrored super cameoed or deep cameoed and has tremendous eye appeal to me that is a great rare undervalued coin

even in the most common dates as for me with the seatred liberty series i will always go with fantastic eye appeal extraordinary qualities of a common coin over a rarity anyday now of course if the coin is also rare then all the better

and of course in the higher grades of gem and superb gem unc and proof even the most common coins if they have extraordinary qualitiees like certian eye appeal as started above can be a totally desirable undervalued rare coin

extraordinary eye appeal always weins over rarity anyday of the week now of course if the rarity is also extraordinary eye appealling then all the better and bets the other hands down but still it has to be extraordinary eye asppeal that wins in my book common or rare coin and if commem well then not common at all with monster eye appeal!

sincerely michael

DaveG

I really like Liberty Seated halves and dollars, particularly those from the 1840s and 1850s. In general, these coins are very hard to find in Unc. and circulated coins are hard to find "problem free."

I think most collectors only go for type examples of Liberty Seated coins, as the series is so long and contains so many high-priced or hard to find coins. Also, unlike Morgans or Saints, you can't really collect these coins in MS-63 to MS-65.

Randy Campbell (of ANACS) did a series of columns on Liberty Seated dollars in Coin World over the past year or two and he reported that the populations of slabbed coins for most of the dates in XF and AU were barely in three figures, as in 50 from PCGS, 40 from NGC and 25 from ANACS.

I really like Bowers' Silver Dollar Encyclopedia and think it does a nice job on the Liberty Seated dollars.

Also, don't forget to join the LSCC!

EVillageProwler

Randy Campbell (of ANACS) did a series of columns on Liberty Seated dollars in Coin World over the past year or two and he reported that the populations of slabbed coins for most of the dates in XF and AU were barely in three figures, as in 50 from PCGS, 40 from NGC and 25 from ANACS.

One of the reasons why the pops for many of the dates in XF and AU is so low is because the prices for these coins have been so low for so long that it's not cost effective to get them slabbed. And, there's not enough of them to submit in bulk for preview service.

I got my ChAU 1846 dollar for $400. That's really cheap! I think a buddy of mine got his 1868 (ChAU) for around $600 or $700. And, that's a better date too! Think about how inexpensive an EF40 specimen goes for... Are they worth the $15 or $30 dollars to slab?

EVP

roadrunner

DesertLizard,

Someone pointed out the same fact to me back in the mid 70's and I was hooked. Just so many neat and underrated dates worth a fraction of what 20th century coins bring. And they've done pretty well over the years price-wise. 1901-s quarters are common in UNC compared to say a "buyable" 1871-s seated quarter in UNC. I sort of like the fact that can I own the rarest San Francisco mint quarter minted in GEM MS from 1866 to present for a fraction of the much more common 1901s or 1918/7s quarter.

As the pops and registries continue to spread it will only highlight the disparity in value between seated material and more common 20th century coins. People will have to realize the value. And there is no rule that you have to build a set. I never have and enjoy them nontheless.

roadrunner

DaveG

EVillageProwler:

I guess I'm a "total newby", because I never really thought about whether it was cost effective to have LS dollars slabbed.

I do tend to look for slabbed LS dollars because I've seen an awful lot of "iffy" raw ones and when I ask the dealer whether he think the coin will slab, he won't give me a straight answer.

But, quite frankly, I really don't consider myself well versed in LS dollars because I just don't see that many. Even at the 160-dealer White Plains show, I rarely see more than 5-10 LS dollars on the entire floor.

Until, that is, I had the chance to look over Ron Cooper's inventory. He had a 2-row, 12" box half full of raw LS dollars. I looked at them, but suffered from overload and didn't buy from him. Also, I had a hard time finding an attractively toned coin. Perhaps when I get somewhat more experienced, I'll sit down with Mr. Cooper's inventory again!

And, I totally agree with you, compared to the zillions of Morgans around, LS dollars are dirt cheap. I just hope they stay that way!

postalamericana

Thanks for the great discussion.

Liberty Seated quarters brought me back to collecting after 25 years or so. Beautiful coins, UNC or high-grade circs.

Completion of a set is not important for me. The acquisition of as many outstanding eye-appealing coins as possible, is what keeps me coming back. I figure if I can get down to needing only 20-30 (not scientific, just a guess) coins in this series, I've accomplished something personally rewarding.

postalamericana

EVillageProwler

Who is Ron Cooper? Maybe I should get to know him, and look through his stuff...

EVP

heavycopper

I became interested in the Seated Liberty dollars after reading the articles by Randy Campbell. I was able to buy a nice 1847 AU 50 ANACS graded dollar for $380. I soon found many have been cleaned. A guy showed me 2 he owned. It was very easy to see they had been polished to look proof. He seemed happy with them, but I had to explain many collectors want origional ones. It is hard to find good ones.

sadysta1

One of the great things about the series is that even problem coins have a fantastic eye appeal. Going with the theme "a picture is worth a thousand of words" let me present a SEGS 1862 AU58 half Retooled fields, cleaned retoned. Sounds bad? Yes, untill you see the coin

picture this
picture that

tristarz

Enjoyed reading this thread. Got me fired back up. Seated libertys are great looking coins. I only had three so I opened a Registry set.
Maybe I will start collecting them again.

DaveG

EVillageProwler:

I'm afraid I can't give you any background on Ron Cooper.

I'd seen him at the last few White Plains shows that I'd attended, but he usually didn't have any coins displayed in his cases, so I presumed he just wanted to do wholesale.

This past show I was talking to Don Hosier and asked him about Seated dollars and he said "Go see Ron Cooper."

After I had overloaded on seeing that many Seated dollars in one place, I was talking to Tom Hyland, who said that Mr. Cooper goes to many auctions and buys the Seated dollars.

Oh. When I asked to see his dollars, Mr. Cooper said his were all raw, because he "hates slabs."

One more general comment about Seated coins: Even though they're rare, they're (relatively) inexpensive due to lack of demand. There's no guarantee at all that demand will increase, so these coins may just stay inexpensive.

Trime

Seated Liberty coins are very special, very interesting and include a large number of die varieties. My interests moved from HD to dimes to 20/25 C to halves and $.
All pleasing to me.

Gemini

"Give me Seated Liberties or give me death"...

one of Patrick Henry's lesser known quotes

koinkrazy

How can you not love em????

66Tbird

This is a series I have been watching lately myself. With what I can afford it will only be a type piece in AU. What I have not been able to figure out yet is which year, or series of years would have the best AU selection from an eye appeal standpoint. I would surely like to have a great strike, and at least a little bit of luster, but I understand that a lot of them have been cleaned which really doesn't bother me too much.

After I purchased the 1873 trade dollar which was a 50 -- 53 in a 55 holder, I could see a very light cleaning and retoning, but the eye appeal was there and that is what I would be willing to compromise with in a seated liberty dollar.

By the way great thread :-)

tjkillian

Liberty seated coins are my favorite series. I collect half dimes by date/mint. I'm trying to get every different type for my type set. A nice MS-6something half is very nice indeed. I am hoping to get a proof 1861 silver dollar for Christmas

Tom

coynclecter

If Santa drops off a Proof SL $, please be sure to give him my address before he leaves.

RELLA

tristarz,

Nice start to your registry set...looks like a bit of competition might be brewing in those quarters finally.

I've always loved Seated material myself, for many of the same reasons already stated in this thread.

RELLA