Can this forum be hazardous to the value of your collection?
gsaguy
Posts: 2,425 ✭
I've always considered this forum to be a place where collectors (and dealers) could exchange ideas, compare new purchases, research interesting finds, and just generally 'talk coins'. For those collectors living in remote areas of the country, or those that can't travel due to economic or health reasons, a forum such as this is like finding a gold mine.
And while I've seen many trolls come and go, I've always dismissed them as nothing more than small-minded trouble makers who have nothing better to do in life than trying to cause conflict and short-term aggravation to others. To me, they could really do very little harm if they were ignored.
Recent posts about members using double identities (especially well-respected forum members) have caused me to step back and re-evaluate just how harmful some of these trolls may be. Could they really cause significant harm to the value of your personal collection?
Engaging in open and honest dialogue about the pros and cons of collecting a certain series, the relative value of buying high grade versus low grade coins, the work of coin doctors, good dealers versus scam artists, etc, is good for the hobby as it exposes collectors to a wide range of viewpoints and information and hopefully helps them to make informed decisions.
However, if there is a concerted effort on the part of some members (through double identities) to spread 'disinformation' in order to hurt others reputations, their personal collections, or to realize personal gains through market manipulation, then to me, this is akin to outright theft.
In the past I've tried to stay out of posts that involve nothing more than personal issues. I would like to be known as posting information that is helpful (though sometimes humorous) and would hope that others would try to follow suit. I believe we really do need to consider the effect, positive and negative, that our words can have on others.
Someone else may now use my soap box.
GSAGUY
And while I've seen many trolls come and go, I've always dismissed them as nothing more than small-minded trouble makers who have nothing better to do in life than trying to cause conflict and short-term aggravation to others. To me, they could really do very little harm if they were ignored.
Recent posts about members using double identities (especially well-respected forum members) have caused me to step back and re-evaluate just how harmful some of these trolls may be. Could they really cause significant harm to the value of your personal collection?
Engaging in open and honest dialogue about the pros and cons of collecting a certain series, the relative value of buying high grade versus low grade coins, the work of coin doctors, good dealers versus scam artists, etc, is good for the hobby as it exposes collectors to a wide range of viewpoints and information and hopefully helps them to make informed decisions.
However, if there is a concerted effort on the part of some members (through double identities) to spread 'disinformation' in order to hurt others reputations, their personal collections, or to realize personal gains through market manipulation, then to me, this is akin to outright theft.
In the past I've tried to stay out of posts that involve nothing more than personal issues. I would like to be known as posting information that is helpful (though sometimes humorous) and would hope that others would try to follow suit. I believe we really do need to consider the effect, positive and negative, that our words can have on others.
Someone else may now use my soap box.
GSAGUY
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Comments
Tom
<< <i>I feel these forums are just folks' opinions and one should gather as much information as possible. Just because someone says something here, does not make it true (or false). As in any public place, there are all kinds of people. Tom >>
I must agree with this, we each are the custodians of our collections. We buy them for our enjoyment or profit, and with this comes the responsibility to do the research required. It's not sufficient to say, "I made a poor decision based on the opinion of so-and-so". If you make a bad decision so be it, if it's because you only listened and didn't research and learn it's your fault, not someone elses.
I would have never thought I could send coins or money to a PO box to someone I never even met or at least talked to on the phone. These deals all went fine as even though I accepted a certain trust between members I still did some homework.
Heck even the other day a board member offered to send me a piece on approval that I have had no communication with at all. Now that's the certain trust I'm talking about.
But with all the split personalities and multiple Id's I've seen lately I would really need to look at the whole situation over again. Yes, this is the Internet but when valued members that are held in high esteem by others turns out to really be a stranger I take all this very serious. I got rid of an ex-wife that had multiple personalities, I sure don't need them on these boards and also do business with them and then the next day I don't know who they are.
I will continue to learn what I can from the board here and hopefully I can help someone else learn along the way.
Stman,
I agree with you....THE one thing I admired about collectors/dealers when I entered back into the hobby was the "trust" that you find between the two......collector/collector, collector/dealer, dealer/dealer! There are not many people/marriages/families etc. in the world today that you'll find the "trust" shown toward one another as you find in this hobby! There are quite a few members on this board that I would send a coin to that I have never met as I feel they are honest, hard working, trustworthy people.
For me.....a man/woman is only as good as their word(trust)! Take advantage of that(trust) and you have/are nothing! Simple!
Check out my PQ selection of Morgan & Peace Dollars, and more at:
WWW.PQDOLLARS.COM or WWW.GILBERTCOINS.COM
<< <i>Not true. I am both bohica268 and StillLurking. I've tried to behave with both ID's. (Easier said than done)
StillLurking seems to cause more trouble than Bohica, but it's StillMinor trouble.
As for collecting value, I don't know about value, but reading this forum has made me look at coins more critically. This is good for expensive coins, but I sometimes find myself concerned about a common date Barber half being cleaned. It's probably better to just buy the half if I like it, and not obsess about cleaning. Just my opinion.
TBTGood post and something to ponder on. It would depend on if the soup opera of the forum reflects the coin hobby community as a whole.
TBT
Advice is given all the time on these message boards about what may or may nort be "good" to buy. Unfortunately some of today's advice will be proven to be absolutely wrong and hopefully some of the advice will be proven to be correct.
You are the final arbiter when it comes to your "collection". Use your position and authority wisely.
Joe.
Unfortunately it has turned to an ego thing with many people, sometimes myself included. This is an important point for internet posters, it's neither productive or in the longer best interest of the poster to confront in an attacking mode. Ask questions why someone feels this way, rather than to start the personal attacks. Now there will always be those who can only attack or continue to profer on this form the same old tired comments. Learn to ignore, most of us have. The only disettling fact about it, is the harm it attaches to new collectors.
Finally there are ways to make a point without the offensive langauge, its called explanation or facts. Those of you who think you have to point out every lapse in the thought process of others by attacking them seriously need to rethink your approach, you might be right in the information, but the message will be lost due to your arrogance and/or style.
Yes my collection will be harmed if I feel the need to quit posting here and therefore not having the valuable information available to me. Quite frankly I am tired of searching through the personal attacks to determine which information is valuable, thought provoking or which poster really knows his or her stuff.
That is true, but does anyone wield that much authority on these boards?
If collectors and dealers on this forum were to lie in order to influence the market, I'd think the word would get around that forum members on the CU boards weren't very bright or honest.
Obscurum per obscurius
that is too bad i have seen many good on here come and never return
sincerely michael
Bryan--
Of course I agree with this, and applaud you for your well-written and thoughtful post. And that's what it comes down to isn't it? Thoughtful vs. Thoughtless.
Now, the trouble with that equation is, it sure seems sometimes people put a lot of "thought" into disrupting these forums.
And that I do not understand. I've never understood the personality of the agitator.
I'm not naive, but I can be easily duped. I approach most interactions with people from the basic stand point that they are sincere. On the internet this can leave you fairly vulnerable.
Kurt Cobain is quoted as saying "I like sincerity. I lack sincerity." Sincerity is the level one, basic ingredient I require to have any meanful relationship with anyone or anything. I personally want to trust the identity of this forum as a whole, and if I can not, then it is diminished in importance for me. Nobody else has to agree with that, I am stating how I view it.
People have asked me privately what I think about what has happened this weekend. My honest answer is I don't know. I just do not know. I am not a hanging judge sort of guy, and the questions of ethics, personality, so on so forth that it raises are murkier than I have an answer for at the moment. One observation can be made: some people were genuinely hurt, some brushed it off, and some enjoyed it. I think it can be agreed upon that happened.
Sincerity.
The rest is all a dog and pony show. I don't care how smart, talented, well loved, or how many awards are on the wall. If it's acting... I'm not interested.
Unfortunately GSAGUY, those who already "consider the effect, positive and negative" that words have on others will continue to do so... but those who don't, won't... or won't care. In the short time I have been here, I have read hundreds of posts, literally begging people to stop certain behavior. And it never changes. As Donovan said "Ah, but I might as well try to catch the wind.
Carl
I listened to the discussion of the value of buying key dates first in planning a collection, and planning is something I never tried before!
I used to run 'barefoot and free' through the coin shops, picking up items for my 'accumulation' that caught my eye. Now I pack a lighted loupe, and carry my list with me, caught up in the drudgery of picking and choosing in a more enlightened fashion. Sometimes I long for the days of ignorance and bliss.
My collection is now so organized that my wife is thinking I need to buy a safe, after sharing what the key dates are worth/valued at.
I reminded her that you don't own a thing that doesn't own you to some degree, but I'm afraid it fell on deaf ears.
So, between the identity ambiguity, the ego-wars, the mine-is-better stances, and being a pigeon ripe for plucking, I'm afraid I have learned the hazards of being informed anyway, and the result is a loss of my ignorance at the expense of a piece of my soul!
Still I have resolved to learn from the foibles and errors of others, so that I don't have to commit each one myself to more personally learn the lessons available from sharing experiences (even the more negative ones) and opinions from whence comes my own knowledge.
I don't think it my case it would.I have learned to focus my collecting because of this board.I was hap hazzered before I came here.
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
A case in point is some Reg Sets I was working earlier this year. I was using coins from my personal collection but I needed more than 1997 coins to do the 5 type sets I was working so I had been buying a lot of MS 67-69 coins from eBay & Teletrade.
I was at the point where I needed all the different varities of 1976 Washingtons, JFKs & Ikes. I had bought all the Silvers and needed the T-1 & T2 coins so I was looking at Ikes which aren't cheap in 67 and I was going to buy them from a member or dealer right?
That's when David Hall was taking surveys so these 2 of your beloved members who were too chicken$hit to use their own names posted what a stupid idea it was to ask for Year and Proof & Mint sets to be included in the Registry (which I was pushing). They said there were enough stupid & useless sets in the Registry and then caused much other turmoil on the board and the Reg board became quite hostile with much bickering, name calling, backstabbing, a$$ kissing, the usual you know.
I said yeah the whole thing is stupid, let me out of this Registry Rat Race! Hell I have no interest in collecting T-1 & T2 Ikes so I must be stupid because here I am looking to buy some that cost $500 because of the number on the slab so I dumped them back where I got them from and put the $$ toward some Proof Barbers, Lib Nic, IHC and Morgans that I really liked.
Funny thing, I then got back to buying the coin itself so Proof Cameo dealers from the board like R&I who would have gotten my $$ missed out because I was now free to buy NGC, ANACS or ICG without it having to fit into a PCGS set.
I bought a few NGC slabs and another and another so I said what the heck so I now have Toned Morgan Registry Set over at NGC.
So this forum actually increased the value of my collection because I weeded out the coins I didn't want and put around $30k into some nice Classics for my collection and I don't see the value going down anytime soon like my MS67 Moderns did.
Another case in point is after all the AT turmoil and the posts about how collectors & PCGS couldn't tell if toning was real or AT about a year ago I was able to pick up some nice toners CHEAP!! Seems like everybody was scared of them right after the threads. I'm not a toner tonehead collector but the toning was on some really nice Morgans, which I do collect.
I don't know if the forum really had anything to do with it maybe it was just a market slump but I really don't care because I'm not a dealer.