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Why is that toned coins are so costly

nandananda Posts: 247
in U.S. Coin Forum
Hello,
Can i know why toned coins are so costly. I had a coin which is getting toned which made me upset as it may loose its bright lusture.

Bye,
Nanda

Comments

  • TwowoodTwowood Posts: 518 ✭
    Can toned coins be un-toned? Twowood
  • GeomanGeoman Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭
    Personally, I do no like toned coins. I like them bright white, as they first looked like coming out of the mint. However, a lot of people love those toned coins. To each his own I guess.
  • OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Eye appeal. It's amazing, people dip brass, their silver jewelery, silver tea service, etc. just to remove that ugly tarnish. But, put that tarnish on a Morgan and all of a sudden it's a thing of beauty not to be messed with.image

    Personally, I like nicely toned coins but would not pay a super premium for them like some do.

    Cheers,

    Bob
  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭
    It's not a universal thing, but many people consider colorful toning or toning that is appealing in nature to be a good thing on a coin. Instead of the regular silver look, color adds something. Same reason why a color picture of the Great Smoky Mountains looks better than an older black and white one. But if the colors were all mixed up in the GSM pic, it wouldn't look as good. Personally, I like both toned and untoned. I even let some coins that have developed average/not so great toning to keep going. I like originality as well. But if a coin has been treated very carefully to remove toning and is attractive without it, I'm OK with that.
    Blog and Pics
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭
    Because some people are willing to pay more for them.
  • solidsolid Posts: 2,975
    Under normal circumstances, it will take decades for a coin to develop natural toning
    due to reaction with the storage environment.

    Most of these coins will tone in varying shades of gold, grey and brown. A very small
    percentage will exhibit vibrant, colorful, attractive toning. It is the beauty, rarity and
    desirability of these few coins that account for their high cost.

    Originality is the key here. Many brilliant coins have been dipped to remove average
    or mottled toning. This removes a very thin layer of the coins surface and diminishes
    the original mint luster. Dip a coin a few times and there will be very little luster left.

    The same thing is true of most antiques. Most things that are old are expected to
    develop a natural patina, which attests to their originality. You may be able to strip
    the patina and make an old object look close to new, but it will usually be worth less.

  • michaelmichael Posts: 9,524 ✭✭
    for me toned coins are not costly

    what is costly are coins with little eye appeal
    and ugly dipped coins
    or coins that for the most part are damaged and with little to average eye appeal that have been cleaned dipped whatever you call it

    now for me coins that are original coins that arew white with original crusty surfaces and unimpedid lustre weather ms or proof or circ and maybe fantasticllay toned over many many years and the look is extraordinary or fantastic or monster and you usually do not see these like this in a particiular series

    and the collectors that put these coins away started with white copins with great eyeappeal to begin with and markless unimparied surfaces then great toning to me this is a positive thing and is actually not costly at all expensive well that is a matter of opinion

    but i do know THEY ARE A GREAT VALUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    AND ALSO are great coins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    and from my limited experences of playing the coin game over 35 years
    have been the best values of coins to own and also have given me the best fun i have ever had in coins

    but again one mans treasure is anothers trash

    just make sure you do what you like to do!

    and of course with life and especially so the collecting of coins this is always in a great deal of flux/change!!

    good luck and if ever you find coins does not make you feel good or happy then time for you to get out of coins and into something else!

    not good or bad just the way it is

    sincerely michael
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Toned coins can command a premium for two reasons:

    (1) Beauty -- a small percentage of toned coins are stunningly beautiful, and many others have "character" even if they don't have beauty.

    (2) Originality/Natural Surfaces -- we can quibble about words (ie, what is "original"), but many people prefer coins that have not been tampered with.


    Item (1) can apply to any series, item (2) is less likely to apply to modern coins. In leaving a modern coin to the elements to let it tone, you have some small chance of gaining a very attractive coin (thus increasing value), but you probably won't get a consensus that the coin's value has improved based on "originality".

    As TomB once pointed out to me, in both cases, it is very much tied to the "emotional" impact of the coin. A truly breathtaking coin will attract a following!
    Higashiyama
  • BSqrBSqr Posts: 543
    hey solid (or anyone else),

    I just sent in a 94 SMS & 7 SMS Jeff for slabbing -- half of the obverse of the 97 was turning a yellowiish gold. Can toning occur in only 5 or so years? thanks in advance.
  • barneybarney Posts: 205 ✭
    I' ve been spending a lot of time lately on the threads since I stumbled upon that grossly-priced Morgan monster. I'd like to chime in here.

    First, why collect coins in the first place? To see certain numbers (ie, dates) in a slab? To see shiny metal on an old coin? To look at pretty
    designs on money? OK, fundamentally that's what we do here. People who don't collect coins look at us and say, huh?

    But of course it's more than that. It's history, art, and aesthetics. Toning adds another dimension to MS grades, coin designs, and dates. It is
    much more subjective and makes each coin unique unto itself. It's like owning little pieces of art that just happen to manifest onto old coins.
    Toning is much more subjective, thus its value cannot be quoted on a greysheet. For those who dislike toning, this is a moot point. This feature
    of a coin has no value to them.

    For me, I started looking at toned Morgans about a year ago. I found that spending huge premiums on rare dates or high grades held little
    intererst for me. Everything came down to what slab the coin was in, greysheet, etc...too cut and dry. I made a couple of bucks on my first
    type gold collection and sold the 66 Wells Fargo Saint because it did nothing for me. It was BORING. But the $3000 Morgan I bought turned me
    on and those that like toned coins love it too. Granted, I paid too much, but it was a straight-up trade for the coins that I had and I am satisfied.
    I may never get my money back-I may never sell the coin, but I'm happy with it. Now I have found toned gold coins, including a $450 1923
    NGC 62 that is just awesome, even though it has some noticeable stains from something that touched the coin. That "something" probably
    caused the unusual toning.

    Well, that's what I got to say on the issue. The price of toned coin is between buyer and seller. I need to learn more, but that's what I'm here
    for.

    Take care,
    Barney
    Nicht mehr Münzen-für jetzt!
  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you line up a set of blast white Peace Dollars or Walkers or Franklins or Mercs, etc., etc. after you've seen the first half dozen you've seen them all the only difference are the dates.

    Line up a similiar set of attractively toned coins and each coin is different with a unique appearance and appeal from the one before it. The toning also attest to its age and the time period in which the coin was made.
    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    toned coins are so costly for the same reason a Rembrandt sells for more than a black and white photo done by Ansel Adams.

    image

    image
  • gmarguligmarguli Posts: 2,225 ✭✭
    I like them bright white, as they first looked like coming out of the mint.

    Of course the percentage of 20th century and before coins that are blast white that are just like they were when they life the mint is probably less that 1/10 of 1%. Those blast white coins have been dipped. Kind of hard to call them original.
  • solidsolid Posts: 2,975
    I think Barney hit the nail on the head...it's all about enjoying the coins you own.

    I like complete date/mintmark sets, and varieties can make them even more interesting,
    but when I want to look at, or show some of my coins, I am ALWAYS drawn to the few
    with superb toning. I might have paid multiples of what a "normal" example would sell
    for, but the enjoyment-factor is multiplied MANY times as well!!!

    Try it, you'll like it...

    image <--- that's me looking at my favorite toned coins!

  • Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    The answer is in my sig.
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,964 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Really attractive, natually toned coins are scarce. The trouble is that it has become a contest between the coin doctors, the grading services and collectors to see if the coin doctors can put one over on everyone else.

    I like toned coins when they are attractive, but I won't pay any big premiums for them. That pretty well takes me out of the toned silver dollar market and "old" commemorative markets because the premiums for those coins are down right scary.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, before the slab services started up, original toning was usually a testament to a coin that wasn't screwed with. Experienced buyers looked for that right color and toning. AT material was far less rampant 20-25 years ago. And back then, dipped coins were considered second rate because the surfaces were unnatural. I remember being at the 1988 ANA and showing two rare date seated quarters in MS66 to a leading dealer, one of which was dipped and just too bright. The other coin had its original skin and was lightly toned in an off white. The dipped coin was considered less desireable back then. Today, I wouldn't be surprised if that dipped and bright coin was more eagerly sought after. The more subdued but pristine original coin would probably go begging.

    roadrunner
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 8,529 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Originality" costs more. Doctored coins are worth less. End of story.

    Dave
    Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
  • coynclectercoynclecter Posts: 2,111


    << <i>Of course the percentage of 20th century and before coins that are blast white that are just like they were when they life the mint is probably less that 1/10 of 1%. Those blast white coins have been dipped. Kind of hard to call them original. >>



    I doubt if the millions of bright white morgans out there have been dipped.

    Toning is a natural occurance when a coin is stored in the paper type envelopes (and other ways too). Care musty be taken to AVOID this. A couple decades back collectors started using plastic to avoid this and dipped them to remove it. Now its hot so I'm sure they will be a lot more common in 10 years than before. Keep in mind that there are some super toned coins that are less than 10 years old. It doesn't take 50 years.

    I too like attractive toned coins but I won't pay the huge premiums that some are paying. I have some nicely toned silver rounds , if its just color you're looking for.

    Sell whats hot, buy whats not.

    Coyn
  • tonerstoners Posts: 403
    Read a lot of good reasons here to collect Toned coins. IMHO / originality / eye appeal / My favorite is learning about the different types of toning/Bag toned/Bag toned w/textile dots/end roll toned/mint set toned/album toned/envelope toned/bullseye toning/Paramont toning(Redfield)/ Each of these is unique in the type and quality of the colors that occur in each individual process. I have fell in love with each one of these types of toning and strive to add to each at every chance. I have enjoyed to the fullest extent learning about each and being able to hopefully recognize nautual and AT. I am currenlty trying to put togehter a Endroll Type Set (Morgans to Cents) and have found some awsome examples in each denomination. The vividness of colors that can occur natually make some coins true peices of art and ONE of ONE. Like DOG97 says its Madness, but it is a market that in my opinion will only increase in interest and popularity and decrease in the amount of fresh natually toned coins to be had. It's a passion!!
    Thanks
    Allen
    Love those TONED Coins, a true Addict!!!

    Proud member of TCCS!
  • mr1931Smr1931S Posts: 6,242 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Originality" costs more. Doctored coins are worth less. End of story.

    So true and be prepared to pay for 'originality'...



    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,955 ✭✭✭✭✭
    not all toned coins have to be priced at a significant premium to their assigned grade.
    I just picked this half dime up.

    This is an 1872 1/2 dime in NGC MS-65.


    image
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    A coin has three main elements which appeal to collectors on different levels.

    1. The beauty of the coin design itself.

    2. The state of perfection of the coin.

    3. The presence of that powdery or crunchy white surface of origonal silver oxide.
    On the other hand, spectacular origonal toning can , together with origonal white
    just take your breath away.

    Each of these elements may have different appeal to each collector, as well as the

    stone white versus tone colored coins.

    While economic or investment potential could be considered a fourth element,
    it is not the main reason most collectors enter into this mad hobby. The demand for PQ coins and
    the scarcity, depending on collector sentiment raise or lower the particular premium in each
    series of collectable coinage.

    Marshall Bear



    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for that reply Bear. As always you explain the way it is, in a very well put description. If I wore a hat I would tip it toward you.

    But please consider it done anyway.
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • wallstreetmanwallstreetman Posts: 2,938 ✭
    More and more coins are getting passed off as natural, AT is starting to become accepted! Why do some coins command a premium over others, RARITY, no more will be made! What do you think is going to happen to the price of these RAINBOW MONSTERS as the Doctors get better and flood the Market?
    You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
  • BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    WSM - Better coins thru better chemistry?
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
  • wallstreetmanwallstreetman Posts: 2,938 ✭
    By the way, Its not only the Doctors, Toneheads are purposely trying to make them, unlike the past where they tried to keep them white.
    You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
  • wallstreetmanwallstreetman Posts: 2,938 ✭
    Your right Bear, Ive seen some ATd coins that look really cool!
    You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    wallstreetman,

    There are, in all probability, far fewer original "White" rare coins (from the 20th century and earlier) floating around than there are toned ones. For every coin being artificially toned, multiples of that number are being dipped, many of them without proper/professional neutralization afterwards.
  • wallstreetmanwallstreetman Posts: 2,938 ✭
    Coinguy, Im only refering to the availabilty of Toned Coins!
    You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
  • wallstreetmanwallstreetman Posts: 2,938 ✭
    Are you trying to say Monster Rainbows are being dipped?
    You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
  • wallstreetmanwallstreetman Posts: 2,938 ✭
    All my coins are slabbed or in Airtites, the more coins that are screwed with(destroyed) or purposely toned(successfully screwed with), will make my ORIGINAL WHITE COINS worth more and more!
    You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    But are you so sure your original white ones are original?
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • wallstreetmanwallstreetman Posts: 2,938 ✭
    White with mega luster is all I need to see!
    You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
  • wallstreetmanwallstreetman Posts: 2,938 ✭
    Of course were only talking about the color right now!
    You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And thats the way it should be. Collectors should enjoy what they like and leave it at that.
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    wallstreetman, I was replying to this part of your post : "More and more coins are getting passed off as natural, AT is starting to become accepted".


    No, I am not saying that " Monster Rainbows are being dipped", though I have seen numerous highly attractive toned coins dipped due to the current "white" coin fad.


    You also said "the more coins that are screwed with(destroyed) or purposely toned(successfully screwed with), will make my ORIGINAL WHITE COINS worth more and more".

    My point is that the same argument can easily (and correctly) be made for original toned coins. With all of the dipping going on, the supply of attractive, ORIGINAL, toned coins is decreasing significantly. And, that supply will continue to decrease, even if doctors are toning coins at the same time. Meanwhile, the supply of "white" coins will continue to increase. "Rarity" is and will continue to be on the side of the original toned ones.
  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭✭✭
    WSM

    I'm not sure where you came up with the idea that AT coins are gaining acceptance. Take the best looking toned coin and plant questions in the minds of collectors based on some diagnositics that the coin is ATed and see what happens to the price. When the originality of a coin comes into question the price goes way down.
    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • wallstreetmanwallstreetman Posts: 2,938 ✭
    So your saying no one has ever been fooled into thinking an ATd coin is Original(your idea of original, mine seems to be different from most)?
    You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
  • wallstreetmanwallstreetman Posts: 2,938 ✭
    pmh 1nic, Ive heard it on this forum many times, collectors saying they dont care if its ATd if it looks nice!
    You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭✭✭
    WSM

    That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that when a coin is known or suspected to be ATed it detracts from the price. That's counter to your statement that ATed coins are gaining in acceptance.
    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • NicNic Posts: 3,365 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Coinguy...you have knowledge and experience. Thank you. Please ignore the flightless birds. K

    My 1866 Philly Mint Set

  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,275 ✭✭✭✭✭
    WSM

    What they say with their mouth is one thing. When it comes to opening their wallet it's another.
    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • wallstreetmanwallstreetman Posts: 2,938 ✭
    Got to go now, catch ya later, Im late!
    You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    WSM,

    I hope you're not leaving to go dip some coins.image
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mark Feld,

    Does your advice not to feed the troll also extend to flightless birds who drink hard kool-aid?

    image

    EVP

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

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