NGC downgrade submission experience

paulheep

I have a 35-s Buffalo 5c NGC MS65, gorgeous coin except for a scratch from the right of the Indian's temple to the chin and onto the field which I submitted for "downgrade" The opinion of a few respected dealers is that the scratch is from a staple and I agree. The coin was returned from NGC in a MS63 holder. I called NGC and they requested I submit the price difference which Gray Sheet states between the 65 & 63 grade.

The coin is enviormentally damaged. I couldn't get an AU offer in Long Beach when the coin was in an NGC 65 slab. PCGS would never slab this coin.

Paul

#10 Buffalo PCGS Registry Circulation Strikes

wayneherndon

Sounds like you would be better off letting them keep the coin and paying you MS 65 money.

WH

paulheep

NGC apparently will not commit to their mistake, but the buyer's discreions sure does. The coin was bought sight unseen, the seller deemed unreputable, but NGC should honor their grading.

NGC fans I will sell you the coin at Gray Sheet 63 value, sight unseen no return. PM me.

Paul

bennybravo

Hi Paul, sounds like you got a raw deal.I would let them (and everyone else) hear about it on their forums.NGC FORUMSI know that NGC actively participates there, so it couldn't hurt.

wallstreetman

NGC SUCKS!

supercoin

Ditto what WH said... if they truly feel it's an MS63 then they should be able to resell it as such themselves. Ask for MS65 money and let them keep the coin.

Let us know what happens, I just posted in another thread about the value of a grading guarantee from a reputable service like NGC or PCGS, wondering if I should remove one of those from that list.

FYI, I had a coin with a scratch on it (grafitti, actually) in a PCGS slab and PCGS gave me my purchase price and kept the coin.

clackamas

>>I just posted in another thread about the value of a grading guarantee from a reputable service like NGC or PCGS, wondering if I should remove one of those from that list

So did I.

Fairlaneman

When people realize that different grading services have different standards all will be understood about what ends up in the respective holders. NGC, from my experience, allows for little flaws such as the scratch you mentioned, slide marks and some hairlines on thier MS64 and 65 coins they slab. PCGS for the most part does not allow for them in these grades. If you do not like the flaws NGC allows carefull inspection of the coin must be made before you purchase the item.

In the case you stated here I believe NGC admitted thier mistake and offered you payment difference for the mistake. Its part of the Game and at least they just did not tell you to take a long walk in the woods or to get lost as other services might in this situation.

Ken

BigD5

I don't know the EXACT terms associated with ngc, but I think it may be an option thing (unfortunately, their option ) to either pony up the monetary difference between the original grade, and the new downgrade, or keep the coin and refund your money completely. Hopefully you can return the coin and receive proper compensation. I saw Supercoin's coin first hand, and the amazing thing with a coin like that, or even the buffalo nickel mentioned above, is how they miss that stuff the first time around. A dealer I know has a Barber Quarter in a pcgs holder (ms/64) with a scratch on the reverse, just under the eagle's wing, that hooks in towards the eagle's breast. I can see how they missed that one, it is so well hidden, but the obvious ones puzzle me. Let us know how you make out.

IrishMike

Last year I purchased a blazing white Walking Liberty Half from a reputable dealer. It had a staple scratch on the obverse. It was in a PCGS MS65 holder. I immediately called the dealer, their first response was to say that I was mistaken, but send the coin back. They called me to tell me that I was correct and that they had missed the scratch (to me it was obvious). They went on to explain that this coin would probably have been a 66+ or even a 67, if not for the scratch and that all grading companies give an allowance for minor scratches and dings in older coins. For my troubles they agreed to either refund my money or send me one in a 66 grade. I took them up on their offer of the coin, resold it and pocketed the difference.

Pau, I guess I don't understand why you didn't send it back to the dealer, was that not an option? Secondly to say that PCGS would never slab a coin with a staple scratch, simply is not correct.

tradedollarnut

Hmmm - NGC steps up and honors their grade guarantee.... and gets flamed for their trouble. Way to go, guys!

All the grading services spend 5-10 seconds on a coin. If the scratch, or other problem, isn't immediately noticeable and the coin doesn't cost mega bucks so they look closer, then plenty of problems can be missed. That's why each and every coin should be evaluated for quality BEFORE you buy it - no matter what holder it's in!

If a coin is gorgeous (a quote from the first post) and doesn't cost much, it'll be slabbed despite some minor problems. What's a 35-S in 63 - a $50 coin? So you'll be getting back 2/3 of your money no questions asked - and yet you flame the company. How about taking some personal responsibility here - YOU purchased the coin even tho it had obvious problems. YOU are being made whole. And yet YOU are still disatisfied. The difference in value between an MS60 and an MS63? About $10. That darn NGC!

PCGS would never slab this coin

I reiterate - if the coin is gorgeous and cheap, it'll be slabbed. Let's make a little wager - submit the coin raw to PCGS and if it gets body bagged, I'll refund the submission fee and postage both ways. If it gets slabbed, you come on the board and tell us so and you eat the fees.

Android

<< <i>NGC SUCKS! >>



As usual, another thought provoking and constructive post from WSM

Andy

CarlWohlforth

Staple scratches seem like a pretty big distraction to me. I guess the question is should coins with staple scratches be slabbed at all?

I have a NGC coin sent back to them now. It has a deep staple scratch on each side. It was graded NGC 63. I couldn't get any offers for it at all. IMO it should not be allowed into a slab at all.

wallstreetman

Short and to the point, unlike Andy, who talks alot and doesnt say anything!

supercoin

I wasn't paying attention to the coin value -- the reason you couldn't get an acceptable offer for it at Long Beach could be as much to due to its the relatively low value in MS63 (if that is indeed the correct grade) as the severity (or not) of the mark.

As TDN notes, PCGS will certainly slab coins with staple marks if they aren't severe.

Since none of us have seen your coin, it'd be interesting to take him up on his offer and see what happens!

tradedollarnut

Any coin that's worth $50 is more hassle than it's worth to many dealers. Unless you have it on a wantlist or specialize in that area and have ready customers, why would you stock it? By the time you're done doing the paperwork on the coin, you've lost any profit - even at forty cents on the dollar!

keithdagen

I have a MS-65 Morgan with a deep staple scratch on the eagle's breast, generally considered a focal point on the reverse.

The slab company? PCGS.

nwcs

Reverses usually can get away with more, for sure. But personally I like the way ANA does it with a note on the holder. I would say PCGS or NGC could grade it and then note on the slab that it was scratched and either market grade it or let the buyer market grade it.

Fairlaneman

Yep...They are all Blind as Hell sometimes, so why knock either Company ? Best remedy is to Adjust your Own Eye Sight.

Ken

EVillageProwler

Short and to the point, unlike Andy, who talks alot and doesnt say anything!

WSM,

One more intellectually stimulating and worthwhile remark out of you, and I'll have a coronary! (I guess I'll be living for a very long time!)

BTW, please read my .sig below. All of it, if you are able...

Finally, do you actually know anything whatsoever about coins? I've never seen a single post from you that exhibited the slightest bit of numismatic knowledge. What do you collect? I'd like to test your knowledge...

EVP

Android

WSM,

I'm trying out a new signature line just for you....

Flash

"All the grading services spend 5-10 seconds on a coin. If the scratch, or other problem, isn't immediately noticeable and the coin doesn't cost mega bucks so they look closer, then plenty of problems can be missed."

I've seen the coin Paulheep is talking about. There is absolutely no way a grader could have missed that scratch, even if only glancing at the coin for a couple of seconds. Its huge!

When the folks at NGC decided they were going to downgrade the coin by two full grades, shouldn't they have given the submitter a courtesy call to let them know what they intended on doing and give the option to buy back the coin or pay the grade difference other than just regrading and sending the coin back? Seems like bad customer service to me. No wonder Paul is ticked off.

braddick

<< <i>I have a MS-65 Morgan with a deep staple scratch on the eagle's breast, generally considered a focal point on the reverse. The slab company? PCGS. >>


Well, at least PCGS isn't being accused of scratching coins anymore. That's got to make them feel good.

coinguy1

Matt,

I believe it is written NGC policy that in the event they downgrade a coin sent in for that purpose, they will either pay out the difference in value or purchase the coin. But, they state that the option is theirs, not the submitter's.

In this instance, they lowered the grade of the coin and offered to pay out the difference in value. I don't see any problems with customer service here. And, they are not in the business of buying and selling coins, so it makes sense from their point of view, to avoid "buying" coins in situations like that.

Flash

I'm sure you're right, Coinguy. However, NGC only offered to pay the difference in value AFTER Paulheep received the coin back from them, and AFTER he got mad and had to call them. By that time their customer service, in this instance, was impaired.

coinguy1

Matt, I do agree with you and others that a call from NGC, ahead of time, would have been a better way to handle it. I am confident, however, that they would have been willing to pay the difference in value, whether the client had gotten angry or not.

We have had coins downgraded by them before. Usually, they include a note with the returned coin asking that we let them know/invoice them for the difference in value.

Dog97

Bodybagged for staple scratches? Aren't staple scratches just as original as tick marks & bag corrosion? After all, for the last 40 years it was acceptable to store coins in stapled 2x2s just like sulphur laced mint sacks.
I have a neat killer toned cam not on the holder NGC Prf. Barber 25¢ that would probably grade Prf 68 if it wasn't for the small staple scratch on it knocking it down to 63. Only $500 from Pinnacle, what a great deal & and I like the heck out of it.

rays

I have a little NGC story myself.

Once upon a time, a neophyte collector purchased an MS64 1802 Draped Bust Large cent in an NGC holder from Legend Numismatics. Sometime later, this collector showed his proud purchase to a copper weenie (by the name of Bird). Great excitement ensued. The coin was shown to many copper luminaries, including Jack Robinson, Tony Terranova and Bill Noyes. The consensus was that the coin had unfortunately been (expertly) re-engraved on the reverse.

After sending the coin to NGC, Mark Saltzman sent the collector a check for the full purcahse price of $5250.

Moral of story--
1. Keep your receipts
2. Buy slabbed coins unless you are an expert
3. Buy from a reputable dealer (Legend was helpful in resolution of the problem with NGC).

EVillageProwler

I'll contribute my NGC story.

Perhaps 3 years ago, I bought a Bust Dollar that was graded NGC EF45. Last year, I decided to send it in for the variety attribution (I knew the variety, but simply wanted it on the insert). I get a call from NGC telling me that, after cracking it out, they noticed that the coin by the rim had been worked on. (I don't remember exactly what they said.) The damage was not visible in the holder, and apparently was hard to see outside the holder too.

Anyway, I ``sold'' the coin to NGC for more money than I had originally spent on it. They did ask me if I want to keep the coin (it was still an exceptionally eye appealing specimen) and they'll pay me the difference. I opted to take the full amount and have NGC keep the coin.

EVP

IrishMike

rays, another moral to the story, is that we are all human, ergo fallible. Thanks for sharing the story, even graders are human. Not that Mark would have missed a staple scratch.

Flash

See? In these examples NGC either called or sent a note back to the submitter along with their regraded coin and the problem was solved amicably without their customer getting upset. They should have done the same in Paulheep's case.