Where has the monsterman gone?
IrishMike
Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
Does anyone else miss his posts? I was just admiring his registry set of commemoratives at NCG, I clicked on several of his pop 1 coins and the Stone Mountain knocked me out of my chair. It's worth a trip over there to gaze at that coin. I'd love to hear the story behind that coin.
0
Comments
I'm sure he is still around....probably hasn't had as much time to visit with all the hurricanes and tropical storms about to wash him away.
Although a few other members have taken up the "slack" with a few "monsters" of their own......GSA, Supercoin, and Frattlaw have all added a few pieces of "eye candy" lately!
Check out my PQ selection of Morgan & Peace Dollars, and more at:
WWW.PQDOLLARS.COM or WWW.GILBERTCOINS.COM
i`ll be tuning in a little more now
ttyl
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Mark
P.S.: The preceeding was all
Jimmy
thanks for all the compliments...as we all know its a labor of love and being a hobbyist is our big advantage....that being said ive been doing it for 30 years and i figure after 30 more i guess i will of seen them all and had shots at all of them thus picked the best i could....nobody can build the best thats ever been in 5 years in the market....unless you dump stupid money all over the place...bill gates where are you??
a little ditty on the stone mountain...about 5 years ago katy duncan came up to me in baltimore and asked would you pay 16,000 for the"last word " stone mountain....back then the market wasnt as hot ...in fact that baltimore show as about the last of the "cheaper days"...anyway i looked at her if she had just farted...and said not....well...as the story goes an upgrader ( ratman ...some of you might know him ) had bought these 2 raw stonies for 25,000 raw both sent to pcgs looking for a 69...both returned 68...not getting any takers at his price he consigned them to the fun show auction...but between the november balt show and fun he tried the" last word" stonie at ngc looking for the 69....which resulted in a swing ...and a miss...heritage set them up as they always do with the pcgs coin leading...i knew i had to have the ngc coin because it was superior to the pcgs coin ( and keep in mind i did not know that they were ratman`s coins then...nor that they were the coins that katy asked me about as she only asked would you pay.....?...she never said there were 2...nor did i know that ratman tried to 69 the ngc coin )...anyway bidding on the pcgs coin was spirited and it went to sperber for around 21,000...however that was very high for back then and was breaking the "cement ceiling"...george ( her partner ) took her out of the auction by the ear as it was aparent that he did not want to go that high and was escorting her outside for a little tongue lashing.....so up came my target next and i was elated that speber was gone as i knew she was going to make me pay big time...zoom went the bidding but quickly it was between me and larry shepherd...who by the way was sitting right in front of me...a quick stab in his back with my pen and his arm came down in reflex to the pain...he turned around to see what happened and i gave him that "im going to kill you look "...and his hand never went up again...it was hammered to me at about 16,000 ( including the juice )....and i was thrilled to get the coin i wanted which i thought was by far the best one...later that day on the bourse ratman came up top me and told me they were his coins and the story about him thinking the coin i just bought was 69....and to be frank i do too....someday i will try the cement ceiling but for now a 68* will have to do...for now
now you know the rest of the story
now on another note on market savvy and something to think about ...loving commems as i do i realized early on that i would not be able to see all the monsters and get a shot at them in 10 years....and taking longer it would take a fortune to do what i wanted to do...so here is one of my battle plans to take advantage of market knowledge ..right here is where many collectors dont get it yet.....but if you read this ...you will ... i branched out into other types of coins ( when there were no monster commems available)..... i hunted for what i call the cement ceiling coins ( aka pop 0 )....all the upgraders are searching for the pop 0 ceiling coins....they try time after time and fail ...but when they hit...its a homerun....so here is what most miss ....and its so easy..... i dont want to reveal which series i am currently aquiring ( as i dont want anymore competition ...thankyou ).....the coins i am buying only cost 1000 in 66...but with no 67 coins the first would bring 25,000 and a big score...oue la la...so i let the upgraders comb the market place for months and months doing all the leg work...but hey they are pros...and they better buy great coins ...or they will be driving a school bus soon ... they take their shots...getting shot down time after time....not being retail guys and not wanting to deal with the retail people..... when they "give up"...they come see me .....most upgraders are disaplined enough to know when to quit (or they will go broke)....so what do they do...they send it to ngc who will properly grade the coin in a 67 holder and sell it to me for 5000.....why ....because too many people are too damm dumb and are chasing the pcgs registry coins...( aka clones )...they let me just pick em off one by one...and they only make me pay 5000....its stupid i know...but the retail ( aka collectors )lets me do it...and the wholesale and dealers will only do what the retail wants....even if it is stupid....the bottomline is the upgrader paid 1000 for the coin and now has 1000 in fees into it too and i am an easy out for them with a profit...but hey ....they played the game and at least got on base......after a while i have 6 ngc monsters that i have 30,000 in...then boom...an upgrader breaks the cement ceiling.....sells it to a dealer for 25,000 who then sells it to a registry guy for 30,000..........who now sticks out his chest and says to the world.... hey!! look at me i have a pop 1 coin with that smirk on his face......me....i am just giggling my a$$ off at him strutin around like a bantee rooster...you see i have 6 coins just like it....segway 5 years later....we now enter the 68 cement ceiling era....but lookie here....i have 6 shots at the 68 cement ceiling for 30,000 invested...and the rooster over there has 1 for his 30,000....now which side of this picture do you like????...naughty naughty pcgs for not putting the right grade on it in the first place....i know ....i know ....your a public company and you have to increase revenue by undergading coins making everyone play the game....but hey ...you give the advantage to the pros...and your actually hurting the collector by doing it...and he is the very clone who follows you like a zombie ...but thankyou very much for your registry rules where only pcgs coins can go in there....you have made me mucho dinero ....but you screwed your rooster....but dont worry he doesnt even know it
ok guys what ye say....gawd i love this job
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>george ( her partner ) took her out of the auction by the ear as it was aparent that he did not want to go that high and was escorting her outside for a little tongue lashing..... >>
I thought he works for Laura.
Cameron Kiefer
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
ratman....promounced rat-man is dan ratner ...you are correct
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
monsterman:
blank(forbidden Board word)a doodle do, thanks for the dissertation!
I Love these boards, can learn tons in a short time.
In my world (collecting a very modern series)I have tried to mitigate some of that game (rising cement ceiling) by buying the best(my case, best coin PCGS 70's) and be willing to hold for the very long haul. I know this strategy is not for everyone, heck, probably only a few, but.... there it is.
I appreciate the hard work that upgraders, dealers, collectors, people like yourself put into this game to bring out the top product.
I believe in the market system over time and that the best coin will be rewarded commensurately.
Like to hear more comments on this strategy from Board members, maybe shoot some cannon balls through its sails.
Thanks
BBmP
I don't want to throw water on your collection as I have bought and sold probably 100 PR70DC's. However, my opinion is that Greg's long run strategy will never work for PR70DCs. It's a different game entirely.
you make some good points and i am glad your here and learning other`s thoughts...so here is somemore
In my world (collecting a very modern series)I have tried to mitigate some of that game (rising cement ceiling) by buying the best(my case, best coin PCGS 70's) and be willing to hold for the very long haul. I know this strategy is not for everyone, heck, probably only a few, but.... there it is.>>>>collecting coins and what you should pay...to me.... is a function of supply and demand ...just like buying a house....near where i live ( in houston ) there is a 30,000 acre ranch and land is everywhere and is now being developed....so when you buy there the only way for houses to go up is if the cost of producing them goes up....the escalation of housing is fought all the time with by using inovative construction methods...as capitalism demands it....thus prices dont go up much...but obviously do over time.....but my daughter lives in the galeria area...and there is no more land...period....thus due to increased demand by people wanting to live there her house went up 100% in the last 5 years....coins are the same ....to me in moderns the "30,000 acres of houses" has to be all sold out before they will go up ...and that could take a long time...but on the other hand it might not ...as collertors are entering the market daily through the normal aging of the very rich baby boomers and the quarter program as well as other factors...
another case in point...at auctions the most important person is...the underbidder for he is the one who made the winner pay what he did....that being said i never mind being the highest bidder...as long as there is a full compliment of underbidders....a while back i saw 2 guys duke it out over a 53-s franklin...it hammered at something like 80,000....less than a year later the meathead put the coin into an auction and it sold for less than half sticking him with a 40,000 loss...what happened....no underbidders until 40,000...thus he made a bad move in bidding it up they way he did
now lets talk about the population...with moderns....the ability of the mint to produce ms or pr 70 coins has really become endless and the mint will make what is needed to fill the extimated demand ...for they are in business to make money too....so there are many coins that will in time be graded 70.....its just that the services "cartel" the supply of the 70 coins ( just like diamonds and oil....the supply is controled to meet the demand )...when there is huge demand they loosen....when there isnt they tighten....all this is done to stabilize the market place on a continuing basis....you dont think they want to grade them all the way they should and increase the supply to a level where they stick a large submitter of coins (who sends them thousands of dollars a week in fees) with a ton of invetory that he cant sell do you...if they did they would put him out of business...and there would be no more weekly fees coming in and in turn the services would go out of business ( not really ...but they would make a heck of a lot less money...and i dont know anyone who wants to take a pay cut )....bottomline its "carteled"...and i think the real value for moderns is in the 69 grade where as you pay a heck of a lot less and you can make the coins yourself assuming you have the grading skills to know the undergraded 69 coins....personally i let the others pay the price for 70s...i would be buying the 69s and make the 70s...
now back to value....since moderns are controled ( for the most part...and i am not knocking modern coins and i own several...just not 70s )....i prefer a seris where there is low supply and can not be manipulated ...thus i do commems.....several commems had only 2000 coins made period.......that being said ...a little tug on the demand side and boom..instant double....a little harder tug and boom triple or more....
so thats why i play there...its the smart thing to do from where i sit
I believe in the market system over time and that the best coin will be rewarded commensurately.>>>>you are exactly right...and as per above if its in a seris where the entire pop is only 2000....wow...my econ teacher in school would be proud of me
Like to hear more comments on this strategy from Board members, maybe shoot some cannon balls through its sails.>>>hope this helps
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
monsterman:
Tremendous help!
Thanks, reason to pause and think.
I suppose my hopes for consistent grading over time maybe the Achillies heel here, I do collect a series with mintages below 10,000(obviously 2,000 much preferable).
I've felt that in years to come, what ever service out there is grading, that the PCGS 70's of today(my series) will hold their own, however; the strategy to pick superior 69's is a probably a better investment route, for those with the time, skill level and fortitude to attempt it.
When I review the tactical near term decisions needed to roll up into my strategic investment plan in these coins, I seem to find my collector hat many times at odds with my investor hat.
Thanks again.
PS: DMWJR: The "game" in 70's you allude to in your response, is it the basically the same one as mentioned above by monsterman?
Thanks BBpM
I've felt that in years to come, what ever service out there is grading, that the PCGS 70's of today(my series) will hold their own, however; the strategy to pick superior 69's is a probably a better investment route, for those with the time, skill level and fortitude to attempt it.>>>>>if they hold their value is simply economic...supply and demand
When I review the tactical near term decisions needed to roll up into my strategic investment plan in these coins, I seem to find my collector hat many times at odds with my investor hat.>>>>i do understand....its just smart to do both conjoined
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
monsterman:
I'd like to attempt to summarize here: Low mintage coin series, chosen well by those who know how, and hopefully a series or coin that one likes. Investor and collector conjoined?
Whats left is future uncertainty of value:
Which perhaps is future value based on current $ invested, or simply put an expected NPV of the investment. I suppose the main offset to this future uncertainty is the satisfaction of ownership etc.
And that I believe leads to my last thought.....
How does one objectively measure subjective value?
Thanks again
BBpM
very refreshing to hear your words of wisdom. I think we can all learn from the wisdom you have shared with us in this thread.
thanks
Jason
(Bonnies' daughters boss)
This has been some good reading guys! I have to chuckle a bit, because of the use of the word "cartel". I remember a few years back when that word was being kicking around to describe the Lincoln cent market and the players involved in it. Not to mention the way top collections of classic Silver Commems at auction often get "carved up" between the players. Anyway, good reading!
Wondercoin
Cameron Kiefer
Rainbow Stars
as far as this
>>>>Not to mention the way top collections of classic Silver Commems at auction often get "carved up" between the players. Anyway, good reading!>>>>it sure happens...but it gets harder and harder with the added competitioin of more and more collectors...and naturally there are other factors too...such as david schweitz was really low on money at the ny ana in 2002....that right there allowed me to rip at least 10 beauties from that all time monster set....while joe was biddin heavy he left me monsters because he really didnt know how rare they were...and 5 that were pop 1 and still are today....and david was keeping his power dry waiting for the coins he had to have....
the pit ana this year was a blast and i again was allowed to sneak around and rip a few more that i left behind in ny....once again the troops were sleeping...but once again i had remorse for not bidding higher on 5 coins....that someone else was sharp enough to buy
on the other hand...there were 2 coins i have no idea how the buyer will ever sell them and not take it in the shorts....i bunch of us were amazed....but someone is going to take a 18,000 dollar hair cut....and i wont mention any names but its not hard to figure out....as there were only a few haircuts to be had
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
I sure hope you SECRET new set isn't Wash quarter MONSTER TONED coins. Both (young) Justin and myself are still hoping you sell your prized quarter(s) in our lifetime!
Sage advice to everyone to pursue those "one grade under" nice looking coins as well as super premium coins for the grade. Where PR70DC collecting gets real interesting to me personally though is where I can squirrel away MONSTER "PQ" COINS. Wait a minute you say - monster PQ coins are not possible when you collect PR70DC coins - they are all the same (?) IMHO, NOT SO - the designation "DCAM" covers a HUGE range of quality, ranging from "just barely DCAM" to "MONSTER DEEP, DEEP CAMEO MOOSE" and is separate and apart from the technical grade level of "70". I love collecting these special coins, as well as love placing them with collectors who care. For example, a typical PR70DC Jeff nickel from the 1970's or early 1980's is a lovely coin, BUT, a MONSTER DEEP DEEP CAMEO specimen with fields that look like it has snowed 6 inches on Thomas' head in the dead of winter - well , I am just waiting for the day (similar in a way to how MM is waiting for his day) the grading companies come up with the novel idea to recognize these special coins (assuming they ever do).
Wondercoin
right here mitch is exactly right....even with in the range of the 70 grades there are coins that we all call..." geez..i just gotta have it " coins where as it is soooooo superior it gives you the willies...and you thank your lucky stars you were astute enough to recognize it and snap it up.......when ever you come across one of these monsters i suggest you get busy.....and by the way ...bring it to mitch or i and we will reward you for your efforts
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
mitch
>>>I sure hope you SECRET new set isn't Wash quarter MONSTER TONED coins>>>>naw its not.....and i hope i have enough lead on the field when you catch me buying them...as you have a knack for knowing whats going on....i just hope you havent put your hand in the cookie jar before me :-)
ttyl
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Monsterman:
Thanks for the helpful insight!
Mitch:
Thanks for the head knock.
Well about those 70's ...." if there is a huge demand they loosen, when there isn't they tighten..." .
Perhaps one should hedge the bet and buy PCGS stock for the long haul.
BBpM
Cartel is the word. But it's not just coins. It's everything.
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
The reason MM doesn't post enough around here is because he is too busy searching for those monsters. Makes sense to me.
roadrunner
Comments: When you stabbed Larry with the pen, at the auction, only those old enough to remember your Houston Oiler days would have understood and been smart enough just to sit in submission in the chair or lie on the ground. Quite frankly, I believe only you, Lambert and Taylor in your era would have been good enough to knock T.Owens into submission in the short pass game.
Now, you and I have talked about the swing between PCGS and NGC, that possible 1/4 to 1/2 grade thing. You have explained your thinking quite clearly.
My viewpoint: Your concept does seem to work well in set collecting but do not think it would work as well for type coin collecting.
Also, you explained the realities of modern coin collecting with such dead on clarity (re: the land still being available). It was such a superlative explanation, better than any that I have seen before.
monsterman: Good to hear from you again! Sorry we have not gotten back to you yet on what we thought of your business plan, etc., etc. We still have not unpacked the coin goodie bags from that Pittsburgh ANA trip! But that day is soon coming.>>>>i know what you mean im so behind i thought i was in first place
Comments: When you stabbed Larry with the pen, at the auction, only those old enough to remember your Houston Oiler days would have understood and been smart enough just to sit in submission in the chair or lie on the ground. Quite frankly, I believe only you, Lambert and Taylor in your era would have been good enough to knock T.Owens into submission in the short pass game. >>>>>why thankyou...to be frank it is imperative that those "pencil necks" keep an eye on us ..... to us it was always hunting season and i was for ever looking for that kill shot....always seemed to k.o. the tight ends as the smurphs were always ducking
Now, you and I have talked about the swing between PCGS and NGC, that possible 1/4 to 1/2 grade thing. You have explained your thinking quite clearly.>>>>over the last year i have seen it...not only thighten to an 1/8 but its gone the other way....but ngc has always graded more consistently
My viewpoint: Your concept does seem to work well in set collecting but do not think it would work as well for type coin collecting. >>>>oh personally i think so...but thats for another day`s chat
Also, you explained the realities of modern coin collecting with such dead on clarity (re: the land still being available). It was such a superlative explanation, better than any that I have seen before.>>>why thak you again
btw...i added a wonder coin to my commem set...its from the john sinook estate and it is a specimen 65 grant star ( they always put that # on there...looks 68 to me but since it is specially made they grade different)...where as john was known to make one or two special coins for his collection...its the only one known thus it cant get any rarer....i got the same amount of points in the registry as a lafayette in 67
it looks great next to the proof columbian in 68*...visa vi mr ellsworth
ttyl
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Great posts about the thought process on how you play the game, excellent reading with the stories.
regards,
dealmakr
>>>Great posts about the thought process on how you play the game, excellent reading with the stories.
regards,
dealmakr>>>
a very nice compliment coming from someone who has such a great collection as you do....
thankyou very much
monsterman
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language