Why would you risk your $ ?

coinguy1

Earlier today, I posted the message below, in response to a board member who was checking out an uncertified coin on Ebay that would have cost in excess of $400. There are apparently tons of people on this board and elsewhere, who do risk their money (sometimes lots of it!) on uncertified coins and I'm curious as to why. Any responses are appreciated.




<< <i>This is meant for you and anyone else who contemplates buying expensive, non certified coins (in effect, sight unseen) on Ebay or elsewhere. Why, on earth, would you take a risk like that? There are plenty of certified coins available, in many cases, at levels as attractive as the uncertified ones.

In most cases, there is probably a very good reason that these uncertified coins have not been holdered by a major grading service. Among them - problems such as cleaning, altering or questionable toning. Or, perhaps the sellers just want to try to offer the coins at grades higher than the grading services would certify them at.

You are going against the odds and asking for trouble and a bad deal, I presume, due to being tempted by what might appear to be a good deal.

I hope you and others will not take offense at my comments. Over a period of many years, I have seen buyers of uncertified coins get more terrible deals than I would like to remember. >>

Russ

I buy raw coins on eBay all the time. I have yet to get one that was actually as good as the seller said it was.

Actually, I only buy cheap stuff raw. Much less risk, and the odds of the coin actually being worth the money are much better. When buying a $35 XF Two Cent Piece, there isn't much of a payoff for the seller to send it in to be slabbed, so it's more likely to be as described.

One thing I've discovered, and it also applies to certified coins, is that it is frequently what the seller doesn't say in the listing that is just as important as what they do say. Deception by omission is rampant on eBay.

Russ, NCNE

coinguy1

Russ,

I can understand your buying the lower price coins that you made note of (especially if you're hoping that one day, one of them might be as nice as advertised.). But what about the guys who spend hundreds or thousands of dollars?

nwcs

Only once have I bought an expensive raw coin. I paid $404 for a $20 St. Gaudens in 2000. I didn't know any better and didn't think about it all that much. The guy sold it as MS-62 and it graded MS-63 by PCGS. I've learned a lot since then and all my bigger cost items have been slabbed. Like my most recent expensive coin, MS-64 1916D Barber 25C. Definitely slabbed. Nice original color, too. Not dipped. I won't buy expensive coins raw from ebay. But I'll occassionally try my hand at a cheap one that should be expensive.

Clankeye

<< <i>I didn't know any better and didn't think about it all that much. >>



NWCS, I hope you don't mind me highlighting this, it is not to hold you up to ridicule at all. I understand you admit that's the process you were going through. But, I think that's at least half of your answer, Mark. A lot of people buy raw coins coming from that same place.

The other half are probably people who do think they can grade, are looking for that bargain, and think with a reasonable return policy their chances of getting burned are minimal. Also, there is a satisfaction of "making" a slab (if they chose to do so), it can make you feel more actively involved in the hobby.

I have bought one raw coin on eBay, and it was returned. It was a coin that I prided myself in knowing the series fairly well, and my curiosity just had to be satisfied. Of course you couldn't see the PVC in the scan. The coin wouldn't have been graded. Someone else I'm sure bought that coin down the road. Didn't see what was wrong with it, and it probably resides happily in their collection to this day. Or unhappily, if they have tried to resell it.

dorkkarl

i bought a wreath cent (not on ebay) for $7,500 about four years ago, and it was raw. it probably would have cost the same certified, but then i would not be able to view the edge of the coin , which is one-third of it (not in terms of surface area, but you get my point). i have turned down several offers in which i could have easily made a grand. i would gladly give that kind of smack again for a raw wreath cent or chain cent if i really like it.

i also paid several thousand dollars (again not on ebay) for my 1797 draped bust half. pcgs/ngc/icg WILL NOT certify it, because it is a piece of dog-meat. but i love it, & again, would gladly buy a uncertified coin like that again.

the key is that i plan to keep BOTH coins for a long time.

of the coins i bought on ebay, probably 75% were not as good as advertised, 15% were as good as ad'd, & the remaining ones were better. my most expensive ebay coin was $1100, a 1818 quarter that the seller graded xf+ , but looked au. i ended up trading it to a dealer for $1500 worth of coins.

that said, i have also been burned on ebay. i paid $240 for a "au" bust half w/ a tiny image, turned out to be heavily cleaned, & i didn't get my $ back. i lost half my $ on that puppy.

it sounds like maybe your saying that ON EBAY, stay away from raw vs certified, yes? i am in 100% agreement: DO NOT RISK buying sight-unseen!!! but i say that goes for certified as well.

K S

PS: btw, i am nowhere near rich. the 2 expensive coins i mentioned were far & away the 2 most expensive i've ever bought & kept.

RotatedRainbows

Probably because there is a lot of nice material out their that is not in slabs and that many of the services would not slab because of problems. I bought a raw 1807 bust half that I knew was cleaned and scratched for just over $900 and a few years later consigned it to an auction where it realized 8K so I did not consider it to much of a risk since I did not really lose any money in the deal. As long as you know the series you are buying into then the risk is no worse then buying slab coins and in some cases can be less of a risk since you are more likely to look the coin over multiple times instead of assuming the coin must be OK simple because it is slabbed. Ever since PCGS slabbed a counterfeit bust half as authentic I don't have as much faith in slabs as some people seem to.

Lakesammman

I bought a raw coin that turned out likely to be counterfeit 1876 IHC (that I posted a few weeks ago). Rick Snow wrote an article on it - I've never had so much fun for $125!

In all seriousness, I pretty much stick to certified coins, a seller with a very positive feedback rating and a reasonable return policy.

beelzebud

I try to avoid buying raw, BUT I did pickup a raw 1869 prf dime that was advertised as a 63 for 225.00 a while back. Coin has wonderful album toning and I remember in my conversation with the seller, he felt I got a really good deal. My thinking was that greysheet bid was 195 so as long as it came back at least 60 from PCGS, it was worth it. I got the coin and I also felt it was at least 63, and general consensus was that it would "3" as well . Came back from PCGS as 62. Still a good buy.


Bill

darktone

Well almost all I buy is uncertified coins on ebay. So far this year I have got some very good deals. But I do spend spend alot of time looking and I don't just skip over the auctions with no pictures I email them and they usually will send pictures right away among other very simple things that can be done to help get a good deal. Here's a list of coins I have bought this year and got good deals on that had no pictures in the auction.

1891cc $10 I paid $350 and PCGS graded it MS62 and I had the only bid

1899 $10 NGC graded it MS64 I paid $250

1834 $5 I paid $250 ANACS graded AU50

there are several more I can list but I think you can see why I risk my money on these- even if they turned out to be problem coins I don't stand to loose much. Oh yeah did I mention the Lafayette dollar I got for a little over $200 Anacs slabbed it as MS63 and I have been offered MS64 money for it. mike

coppercoins

I would guess primarily because I do not like slabs, I have purchased thousands upon thousands of coins in the past, and only a very small handful of them were certified. I do not like certified coins, I don't like the extra money you end up (usually) paying to get them. I prefer a coin that isn't "tagged", and isn't in an oversized holder that takes time and risk to the coin to remove.

merz2

Mark
I'm sure that everyone hopes to make a high grade coin on such a purchase.I tried and did.It is every collectors dream I think.

DHeath

Mark,

Larceny in our hearts, and whipped cream in our heads.

leothelyon

When less then 1% of all coins are in slabs, why not? Thank God for return policies.
One will usually live and learn through their experiences. And hopefully they won't get
ripped off too many times before they learn. And hopefully they'll stick around long enough
to help flourish the hobby for all to enjoy. But we have too many dealer crooks out there
who are ruining it all for the ones who would be long time collectors. Yes, it's a big risk but that's life in the capitalistic society we live in. In order for there to be winners (money makers) there has to be losers.

Leo

Clankeye

<< <i>In order for there to be winners (money makers) there has to be losers. >>



I'm sorry Leo, but I don't necessarily believe that to be true. I still believe in the win/win scenario, especially when it comes to purchasing a coin. A fair transaction where both parties come away with what they wanted. I think the original point of the thread was why expose yourself to the additional risk of some unscrupulous dealers when buying coins that are from legitimate grading companies can reduce that risk?

dorkkarl

coinguy1, i'd be interested on some followup from your point of view.

K S

CLASSICS

before the slabs came along, there was so much over grading, everone invented thier own grades. one guy said this, and someone else said that. one guy priced his coins this way, someone else priced his coins that way, it all became very confusing, slabs tried to put some order into this mess. and over all did a lot of good. not perfect, but much better than what it was. so if i call mark...coinguy1, and say, hey, i have a pcgs graded ms 65 silver dollar, graysheet bid says, 10,000 dollars , he is going to have a pretty good idea of what the coin looks like. where as if not graded, my idea of ms 65, could be worlds apart from his idea of ms 65. if anyone buys a high priced coin raw, the bottom line is, you better know who you are dealing with, do they offer a return? and if you deceide to return it, will they even be there? when all is said and done, if you dont know who you are dealing with, chances are you will have over paid and be left holding an over graded piece .

dorkkarl

forgot to mention that ironically, several of the best coins i got on ebay early on were ones w/out a digipic. i think the sellers were trying to be very conservative , or maybe everyone else was scared off w/out the pic's.

i went through the days before slabs, the days of slabs, & the days after slabs. sure, there were problems w/ overgraded coins, but i honestly believe they have been blown out of proportion, perhaps by those who would like to overemphasize the problems in order to make slabs more attractive? i don't know. the bottom line for me has always been, if you LIKE a coin & plan to keep it, & don't care about profiting from it, then the $ matters very little.

of course, i buy certain coins w/ profit motive in mind, so then i'm a lot more careful w/ my $.

K S

coinguy1

I would like to thank everyone who replied to my post.

I must say, while I am still very much against non-experts spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on uncertified coins, due to the risks involved, some of the replies have caused me to soften my position a bit (just a little bit, but a bit, never the less).

When I return from a trip I am leaving on shortly, I will specifically address some of the thoughtful posts, including DK's question to me. Thanks again - I love this board and learn a great deal from the participants.

RotatedRainbows

I must say, while I am still very much against non-experts spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on uncertified coins, due to the risks involved, some of the replies have caused me to soften my position a bit (just a little bit, but a bit, never the less).

To me that is the KEY word non-experts , no one should buy raw if you have not taken the time to learn the series you are collecting. And that means learn EVERYTHING you can, read every book you can get your hands on (very easy now with the internet) learn the techniques used to grade the series. Learn everything you can about how the coins are struck (especially the pre 1850 coins) as the mint and minting process was still evolving and that had a big impact on how the coins looked when they left the mint. Coin collecting is or should be about more then just buying coins, it should also include learning about the state of the country at the time and why certain coins are the way they are. The more you know about the big picture the easier it will be for you to understand how to evaluate the grade/condition/value of the coins you are interested in.

Dog97

I don't know if I would pass as an expert or a professional since I'm not a dealer but I know that not all killer coins are in a slab.
If joesmoe with 2 feedbacks listed a funky colored 97 Barber I would pass.
If the seller had 50-200 feedback I would use my own judgement which is pretty good.
If the seller is someone I "know" I wouldn't be afraid to buy a raw coin even if it cost a million $$$.

dorkkarl

agreed w/ the idea that someone w/ no experience in grading should spend $1000 on a raw coin - but i don't think they should spend $1000 a on certified coin either. they should spend that $1000 on getting grading experience!

K S

coinguy1

In response to KS's question and the replies I received from my initial post:

I can certainly see buying non-certified coins under the following conditions/circumstances:

Inexpensive coins - inexpensive is a relative term, but whatever works for a given buyer.

Expertise with that coin or type, whether as an expert on grading or familiarity with that item, due to being an informed/knowledgable collector.

Buying coins that you know will not certify due to problems, etc. but not caring

Like Don said - "Larceny in our hearts, and whipped cream in our heads" Not really, but it sure sounded nice!


Buying from dealers with stated and reasonable return policies, preferably with images and excellent feedback and/or references.

I suppose that leaves plenty of buyers free to buy lots of uncertified coins under a wide variety of circumstances, whether I agree or not!

Mikey

I read their feedback and expect to see a photograph of the coin. I stay away from certain dealers without question.

CLASSICS

<< <i>I read their feedback and expect to see a photograph of the coin. I stay away from certain dealers without question. >>

,, yea........ barry bonds......what a greatballplayer, on to the world series!!!!!

Bear

Russ - Your one of the few people who could get stuck with

garbage, and when you take a picture of it, end up with what looks

like a Proof -70 DC. You aught to go into portrate art. Bear

dpoole

The whole issue has to do with savvy. Ebay is full of traps and scams. Either by virtue of thoughtful preparation or bitter experience, most of the people on here know to stay away from Ebay raw coins. The most knowledgeable have ventured back in here and there, with a set of rules (check feedback, return policy, know the seller, etc.)

Obviously, buying raw coins in person is another deal entirely. But on Ebay, your mass buyers of rare coins are generally those who are unschooled and inexperienced. And the reason they're buying is BECAUSE they're unschooled and inexperienced.

jamesfsm

Mark, I agree with you.

In the early eBay days, it was mostly individuals and alot less dealers. I bought a raw "BU $20 Saint" that slabbed at PCGS MS64. Paid something like $250 for it. Now, there are tons of scamsters and less plain folks.

zenny

i think Dog makes the most important point, it's the feedback, as far as ebay goes.

if the seller has a good history of selling raw coins to what seems to be knowledgeable, satisfied customers, i have no problem sending money if, IF there is a return policy.

it's really that simple.

granted, i'm not talking thousand dollar coins here, but often in the multiple hundreds. but i would say that given a proper profile i would not hesitate to send more for a coin i thought worthy.

the feedback profile, in essence, allows you to "know" someone without knowing them. i've done well over 300 deals on ebay with no real clunkers. in fact, one of my most recent was for a raw "au" McKinley 1$. it arrived even more lustrous than the photo and i gladly handed it to pcgs at the long beach show. it's on it's way home now, in a 64 slab. the seller seemed happy, and i'm somewhat pleased. of course all transactions don't turn out this way, but i never really feel as though i'm "risking my $" when i take the simple precautions of checking feedback and return policies.

(my other long beach submissions, all from ebay raw purchases, were a new rochelle that i bought for 63 money, coming back in 63 slab, and two bust halves, one i bought as ef that i though might au, but 45'd, and an au that got bagged, but you know how that is. these were bought from four different sellers on ebay, but all of them had one thing in common, they had stellar feedback AND adequate return policies.)

these are just recent acquisitions but they are really quite representative. they are all relatively inexpensive, but i considered the upside on them all to be much greater than the downside. pretty much what any reasonable investor does anytime they consider dishing out some cash.

i'm very careful before bidding on an item, researching probable value for the item as well as probable integrity of the seller, but once i've determined these two factors i usually don't hesitate to make a reasonable bid.

just my 35$ ef 2cs.

coinguy1

Zenny,

I wish I could agree with you on the feedback issue.

Recently, a seller with EXCELLENT feedback listed a PCGS MS64 1908 $20. He didn't state in the listing if it was a "No Motto" or a "With Motto" and had no images, but noted a listed greysheet value of over $2500. That would mean it would/should be a "With Motto" as opposed to a "No Motto". Guess what? After I asked him twice, he admitted it was a "No Motto", which is worth approximately $500. I contacted every bidder I could and the buyer, as far as I know backed out at over $1000. The same seller listed a publications value of between $6500 and $8500 (my numbers might be off a bit but you'll get the point) for a coin that listed at roughly $2100 for another item of his.

Don't get me wrong - I look at feedback and feel that it can help. However, I've seen a lot of sellers with great feedback who are obviously scam artists. And, unfortunately, they do quite well for themselves.

shirohniichan

I've seen a lot of sellers with great feedback who are obviously scam artists. And, unfortunately, they do quite well for themselves.

Yea, verily.

There are a lot of ignorant buyers out there praising scammers to the heavens for their supposed "good deals."

I buy somewhat expensive raw foreign coins on eBay because 1) I don't trust the slabbers (I got burned on an attribution error in a well-known slab) and 2) most aren't in slabs.

zenny

mark
your point is actually ironic, considering the gist of this thread. you are talking about a slabbed coin. this brings up for me the fact that i have probably been more disappointed with slabbed coins i've purchased over ebay than with raw ones. with slabbed i almost never get a "pleasant surprise." if i buy a 64, it is probably maxed. if i buy 65, it is probably maxed, if i buy a "casper coin" in any grade it is definitely maxed.

what was the return policy for that saint? how many excellent feedback were there and were they specific? is this the type of coin he tends to deal in?

i understand what you are saying, with respect to someone who may not know what they are doing, but there is only so much you can do for people. if someone is going to spend 1000 bucks for a 500 dollar coin that is "worth" 2500 they are probably going to be disappointed about something at some point in time. i appreciate that you went to the trouble of saving people from being screwed, but you know what? i bet they go right on and find some other way.

ironic that a pcgs coin is being touted in the manner of an acg....


edited for grammar, oops.

Clankeye

i appreciate that you went to the trouble of saving people from being screwed, but you know what? i bet they go right on and find some other way.

This reminds me of one of my favorite fables about fate. I shall recount it quickly:

There was a great Prince who owned the finest horse in the land. One day he was riding, and saw one of his trusted servants running towards him. "What's wrong?" asked the Prince.
"I just saw DEATH in the garden!" gasped the terrified servant. "I beg you to give me your horse and let me flee to Tehran!"
So, the Prince gave the servant his prize horse, and the man rode away to Tehran, and safety.
Now, the Prince was angry. That was his best horse, and a favorite servant. He marched down to the garden and began to search. He came around a corner, and there he was, face to face with DEATH.
"Why did you scare my servant?" The Prince demanded.
DEATH looked at the Prince and said: "I am sorry. But, it was he who startled me. For I did not expect to see him until tonight... in Tehran."

zenny

mark
i guess what i'm really trying to say is that just the fact that you responded to my post with a "pcgs certified scam" is an indication that professional certification by the best in the business won't necessarily protect someone who doesn't care to find out what they're doing.

i'm afraid that the ratio of suckers to minutes has gone up dramatically, and the fact that a coin is encased in plastic with numbers, letters and a barcode doesn't change it.


edited once again for grammar, double oops, and to praise clankeye, of course.

Outhaul

I buy raw coins locally where I can examine them and use eBay for certified coins only. Too much raw junk on eBay.

zenny

here's an example of a seller i have never done business with. i quickly scanned feedback and was impressed. the return policy looks fine, the description of the coin is reasonable and the photo serviceable. if this was what i was looking for i'd have no problem bidding to my limit. this is not an advertisement, i was just surfing and came upon this and it seemed the perfect example of the kind of item/seller that would give me no pause whatsoever, even for an item that will go for over a thousand bucks.


link

on the other hand this next item has no reserve, a modest sales pitch, not a bad feedback history AND the coin is slabbed by ngc. i wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole.

other link

the second coin does have an extremely high start bid, a horrible photo and NO RETURN POLICY mentioned.

look, i'm not saying every raw coin is going to make you happy from ebay, but just because ngc called this a 58 one day doesn't mean i couldn't sent it pcgs for a 53 or maybe, just maybe even a bodybag.

all for only 1500 bucks plus shipping.

this is not meant to slam or promote the sellers used as examples here, it is just my opinion that a certified coin is by no means that much of a safer bet than a raw coin, and that with a little research and experience a person with half a brain shouldn't get burned.

yes a coin certified by a major service is almost certain to be genuine, but once we get past that potential problem, grades are opinions, nothing more nothing less.


isn't the internet fun?

coinguy1

Zenny,

You raised a number of excellent points, among them, the irony of my mention of a seller who was trying to rip people off while selling certified coins! You are also correct in that there is only so much you can do to try to help or protect people. But, I like to try anyway, as frustrating as it can be. Thanks for your posts.

Flash

Zenny,

You made some good points, but I most point out that the seller of the first coin you linked to.. Bestcrystal.. is also known as Joel Rettew, Jr. Need I say more?

zenny

people seem to refer to him as "paul" in their feedback to him, but maybe it's all just a big scam.

all i did was randomly choose a raw coin and a slabbed coin and compared feedback, terms of sale and what i determined as the integrity of the seller from all available information. all i know is the more i think about it, the more i've been pleasantly surprised by raw coins than by slabbed coins on ebay. i've gotten some very nice slabbed coins, but they were obviously nice to other bidders as well because i almost always have to pay serious money for them.

my point, which i believe Mark gets, is that just because a coin is slabbed or unslabbed doesn't guarantee 1) the seller has integrity, 2) the grade is correct or 3) that it is de facto a "safer" investment than a raw coin.

z

oh yeah, Mark, does the seller of the saint offer a return privilege? as you might guess, no return privilege pretty much nullifies any good feedback i see.

coinguy1

zenny,

No return privilege offered, as best I remember. Looks like we're pretty much in agreement, though I'd still favor certified coins by a wide margin, everything else being equal.

Bikingnut

I buy raw stuff all the time, but I never spend more than 20 dollars per coin. If there is no picture I don't even waste my time bidding. If the seller states no reutrns, I stay away from that auction. I will only buy pricey raw coins at shows or shops when I can actually see the coin in person. I have gotten some really nice coins at great prices from ebay such as a 37 D Washington listed as XF, paid very little for it, that turned out to be MS-60 or better. You just have to be wary.

Wisconsin

I love to buy uncertified coins on ebay. Some people play the lottery, or casinos, I play ebay. I think there are plenty of good coins and good dealers out there. I am only buying circulated coins, which is much easier to grade than MS, but I find it very enjoying to get the coins and send them in for grading. It is agravating and discouraging at times, but also very rewarding at others. I read a post about only getting maxed out ugly coins that were cetified. I have to be honest-most slabbed coins I see on ebay are pretty darn ugly. Yet there are many pretty raw coins out there. I am enjoying this as a hobby and am happy with the coins if they have the eye appeal I am looking for. If they grade anywhere from xf45-Au58 I am a happy camper. As long as you are paying money on the low end of the scale it all works out. I think you become a much more knowledgable collector if you go through this process. What do you learn from buying a slabbed coin? You get security for sure, but I guess I figure over all with some common sense you can do just fine buying raw.

gemseeker

I kept pondering the question started by this thread, but finally got my answer. The reason why I bought so many non-slabbed coins is because of two reasons -
1) Pure economics - Slabbed coins cost more
2) If you bought a bad coin, the amount that you were ripped off on is less than on a slabbed coin

I guess that is why I didn't invest on the high tech boom in the late 1990's. High prices for supposed high returns. When the bottom fell out, people's investment holdings evaporated. You better hope that doesn't happen to your slabbed collection. I'll stay with my cheap unslabbed collection even if it ain't worth much.

coinguy1

gemseeker,

In reply to the part of your post where you said

<< <i> I kept pondering the question started by this thread, but finally got my answer. The reason why I bought so many non-slabbed coins is because of two reasons -
1) Pure economics - Slabbed coins cost more
2) If you bought a bad coin, the amount that you were ripped off on is less than on a slabbed coin >>

-

I don't know what type of coins you buy but there are a number of slabbed coins that cost no more than unslabbed ones. If you're buying $5 coins, than no. But even for some $15 coins you can soemtimes buy slabbed ones that cost the same as uncertified ones. Granted, the person who submitted them might have gotten a bad deal but it can be a good deal for you as a buyer.

Also, if you buy an uncertified "bad coin" as you put it, the loss to you can be just as severe as if the coin were slabbed.