1922 "no D" cents

coppercoins

This thread sort of started inside of another thread, but I would like to see where it could go as its own.

The question is, what are your opinions of 1922 "no D" cents? Are they worth the money they are bringing, or are they just a bunch of hype?

My opinion, they are the result of very poor quality dies used in 1922, thus most of them look really ugly. Secondarily, since they are merely the effect of overused dies, where's the reason for them to have any value? I don't really think there is a good reason. The only reason they received any attention at all is that there were no cents minted in Philly in 1922, thus this fills the "gap" that shouldn't need to be filled. Why wouldn't a "plain" 1944 cent minted in Denver be worth a few hundred bucks? Oh, yeah, they minted Philly cents that year. How crazy does this sound to you?

perfectstrike

Hi Charles,

Good question. Maybe you'll get a few of the other Lincoln variety collectors to chime in.

No question it's an overused die variety, but it's rather unique in several respects. The most common overused die strikes result in abrasion doubling. It's not technically an omitted mintmark. It's the only Lincoln variety where the mintmark has been removed at the mint. There are other varieties where the mint marks were not punched, these demand a significant premium. Quality control failed to detect the error when the dies were polished and allowed a significant number of the resulting poor strikes to be released into circulation.

In my opinion, this is a truly unique combination of mint production errors and worth at least some premium more than the standard omitted mintmark.

perfectstrike

nwcs

I think it is an interesting variety because it was an intentional mint laziness coin but probably not worth the premium.

Conder101

In my opinion it isn't worth any premium. The no D is just a worn out late die state of a regular production die. In an earlier die state it produced normal 1922-D cents worth a few dollars. Then when the die was worn out and needed tp be retired they re-ground it too much and removed the mintmark. Same die but now the coins are worth hundreds? Not to me. Same thing goes with the three legged buffalo too.

kranky

Personally I don't get excited about the 1922 Plain cent. I agree that the only reason it has staying power is because there were no P-mint cents that year - and that weird turn of events is what makes the coin interesting to some people.

But I think history shows that, with few exceptions, once a coin gets into the Red Book, it remains a celebrity for a very long time.

dorkkarl

i like em (22-plain & 3leg buff) because they are reminiscent of early coinage in that the uniqueness is derived from a mint employee fooling around with the inner workings. it puts you an extra step closer to the minting process. in other words, it is the touch of the human hand ( a mint employee) that caused these unique characteristics, just like when they used to weight-adjust planchets by hand and efface die clashes by hand. i'm not as much enthralled by the "rarity" or "value" aspect.

oddly, i don't have either coin at this moment, but have probably owned a dozen all together over the years.

K S

bigtonydallas

Well I have a 1920 Buffalo nickel that the C in CENT on the reverse is barely visible on a VG example. Why doesn't this nickel command a significant premium?

kranky

I guess it's because of the way the world of error/variety collectors works. There are innumerable "one-of-a-kind" items and items where only a handful exist, so they aren't very interesting for the most part. But when you have enough of a particular variety that (1) get into the Red Book; (2) achieve "name recognition"; and (3) have an interesting story, then you have a group of people who all want one.

Getting into the Red Book practically guarantees increased desirability.

"Name recognition" signifies that most people know what you are talking about just by the name (1955 Doubled Die, Bugs Bunny, 1943/2 overdate).

An interesting story attracts attention. Again, if there were P-mint Lincolns in 1922 the 1922 Plain would have little interest. But a coin that should have a mint mark but looks like it's from another mint, when you know for a fact the mintmark was supposed to be there is a very unusual situation. And a mintmark is a prime point of interest for collectors.

clw54

Aren't all coins that sell for over face or melt value hype?

Coppernicus

I'm not an error/variety collector so the 22 no D really doesn't interest me that much, so I wouldn't pay a lot for one.

Jayne!!! - I can't believe you said that!!

Coppernicus (Mike)

coppercoins

In actuality, "No question it's an overused die variety," is a misnomer. It is not a die variety or a variety at all. It's a minor error for which I am sure there are thousands of others out there from different dates...it's just the fact that there were no 1922 Philly minted cents that sets this one apart, and my argument is that this is ridiculous.

"I think it is an interesting variety because it was an intentional mint laziness coin but probably not worth the premium." - Actually it was a problem with quality in Philadelphia at the time these dies were made that caused them to wear faster than they should have. Impoperly heated steel caused them to be soft, which facilitated the problem. It wasn't "laziness," it was an unforeseen problem, that, by the time they knew there was a problem, it was too late to try preparing more dies. The demand on the Philly mint to produce silver dollars was more important at the time.

"I guess it's because of the way the world of error/variety collectors works." - Actually most seasoned die variety collectors such as myself see this error in the same light - as a way overblown exaggeration of value created and caused by the generalist market, not the E/V market. Most die variety nuts (scope dopes) won't buy the 1922 "no D" coins because they know the occurrence of such things is actually somewhat common. That year alone carries extra value simply because of hype.

In addition, it's typically the series, or generalist, collector who yearns to add a three-legged buffalo to his/her collection. Typically the specialist in die varietes of the "Indian Head nickel", or "Bison nickel", as they like it to be called, are much more interested in the 1918/7D, 1916 doubled die, other doubled dies and mint mark varieties of the series, not in some polish doubled minor error that received media attention, thus a lot of overvalued hype.

"Aren't all coins that sell for over face or melt value hype?" - Well, I guess that depends on your definition of "hype". My definition for a "hyped-up" coin is a coin that has attained a very high market value mostly due to a misunderstanding of what it really is. In the case of the 1922 "no D", it is assumed by many that the coins in question were minted with dies eithe originally intended for Philadelphia, or were minted with dies that never received the "D" mint mark...neither of these is true, which is why I call it "hype".

09sVDB

I think my 22P is really cool. You can see the state of the die wear on the obverse and it just a neat looking coin . Its a PCGS F15 which I paid something like 165.00 for in 1986. I traded my SOL 3 coin proof set for it.

relayer

I still have my Lincoln cent collection as a kid and that 1922 hole is still empty.

onlylincolns

By definition they are worth the money they are bringing in. If someone is willing to pay a premium for the 22 No D then this coin is worth the premium that is paid. There are enough collectors that are out there to drive the price up. Personally I love the coin as it represents a great piece of history that most people are not aware of. I have a 22 no D strong reverse in AU50 (PCGS) and love it.

dorkkarl

good point. a coin is worth exactly what someone willingly pays for it.

K S

indianabyron

Ok for those of you that dont know the story behind the 1922 no D lincoln cent it goes like this. These are the result of poor planning on the part of the mint. On Febuary 26 the Denver mint ran out of usable dies with about 500,000 more lincoln cents still to strike. The Philadelphia mint was contacted and asked when new dies would be coming . The answer was you got all that your going to get . As a result the Denver put their used dies back into production. The result was from being so worn that the "D" would become filled with greese and would intermitently not punch the "D" this wouldnt last very long before the dirt oil and greese would fall out and the "D" would begin to be struck again. Now as the greese and dirt and oil would build up you would get what is called the week "D" as the worse it would get soon you would have the no D varity.

Now on both the obverse and the reverse there is a great deal of weekness overall this is caused buy the dies being used way beyond their intented life spans.

As a note on this there 4 different dies used to mint these 1922D and no D cents. most notably is the 1 and 3 die with the die crack on the reverse where the crack runs from the rim through the l in plurbis througe the O in one .


So as such its really cant be caller a error coin and it wasent lazyness on the part of Denver or over grinded dies . It plain and simply was over use of the dies.

And yes they are worth the money because they are a recogonized die varity.


Byron

coppercoins

In order for them to be technically called a "variety" they would have to have had the missing "D" from the time the dies were placed into production. They are an error just like any other grease filled, worn out, worthless, used-up die....and a minor error at that.

oreville

Chuck:

Your quote:

<< <i>My definition for a "hyped-up" coin is a coin that has attained a very high market value mostly due to a misunderstanding of what it really is. >>



Marvelous in its simplicity of explanation. I like that defintion very much.

Yes, I also consider the 1922 no D an "error" coin in that a certain die variety was damaged by the US Mint personnel. Do I like it as much as the 1955 doubled die cent variety? No. Does it come close? No. Do I like it?...well sure, a heck of a lot more than the 1909-S VDB. But after 30 years of waiting for this 1922n no D coin to drop in value to nothing, I got sick and tired of seeing the price escalate higher and higher. I finally gave in and bought a nice one graded EF with a strong reverse.

That is the beauty of this hobby. If everyone liked this 1922 no D then there wouldn't be enough for everyone! Same with other errors and varieties.

Nice discussion here......

Conder101

Indianbyron,

The description you gave about the mintmark on the worn dies filling with grease and emptying, and filling again is correct for the Die 1 and 3, but on die 2 the die was actually ground down by the mint to the point that the mintmark was completely ground off. that is why the services only recognize die 2 as being the real no D cent and, at least in the case of ANACS, will only label dies 1 and 3 as "weak D" even if the D is completely missing.

coppercoins

Evening Oreville...

Problem with it is, I see the true reason for the value of the 1922 "no D" cent, and it bugs me. It's all based on the very simple fact that there were no 1922P cents made. If there had been, these coins would be junk-box items for a buck each at best for the circ grades. That was the misunderstanding thing I was talking about. A lot of people are with the belief that these coins were stuck with dies that never had mint marks, thus are "true" plain cents...not the case at all. It is a very interesting subject, I find it fascinating that Lincolns are my first inanimate love in this world, and I detest the idea that something so stupid, so minor, should gain the attention that these coins have - and yes, I'm affected by it commonly with e-mail from people asking about what they are and how much they are worth...I give them the full scoop of ice cream, I am not the conformist who tells people they are "valuable" - I tell them that they have a high market value and I do not believe they should for the simple reason that they are what they are. They are NOT a variety, there is no such thing as a 1922 cent struck with a die that didn't have a mint mark....THAT would constitute a variety. These are a mere minor error and it irks me that the generalist market doesn't see it differently.

Take a very rare and very interesting die variety like the 1956D OMM with the S between the 1 and 9 of the date - some people say it's valuable, others say it's a common 1956D cent. Many dealers have never heard of it nor do they care it exists. But in certain circumstances it can bring REALLY good money - however at a typical coin show you'd have a hard time getting any of the dealers to look at it, much less buy it...but stick a very minor error in front of them in the form of a 1922 "no D" cent, and they instantly can go to a guide and give you top-dollar for it. Ridiculous.

oreville

Sometimes fame build on top of fame. The fame of the coin with a long history of it being famous (even for the wrong reason) can be a self fulfilling prophesy.

It can indeed be irksome to some while others embrace it.

It is also partly the aspect of the elusiveness of such coin in which most young collectors "can't have it," hence the increased desire to own it when they grow up.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Good Morning,

Charles,I don't believe I know you.However I own at least two full red 1922 NO D strong reverse Lincoln cents.I absolutely believe there is no hype,only History.Get a specimen in the finest condition and you will know what I mean.

Stewart

dorkkarl

<< <i>at least in the case of ANACS, will only label dies 1 and 3 as "weak D" even if the D is completely missing >>

die pair 4 is also labeled as "weak D"

i suppose that the "no D" is really more of a "die state" than "die variety"

K S

Dog97

Not the error vs variety debate again...........
It is indeed a variety because an modification or alteration was made to that die which distinguishes it from all other dies.
The filled die variety is something that happens to millions of coins every year and usually brings little prem.
Die Pair #2 is in the same league as the 3 legged Buff but a missing D is not as spectacular as a missing leg.
It's hyped & overrated.

Gerry

This is an interesting thread and I've enjoyed reading everyone's comments. I have very mixed feelings about collecting this type of coin, particularly in high-grade certified condition. I'm sure most of you know (notice I didn't say care) that high-grade certified speciums have sold for close to $100,000. Obviously, from your comments, many of you think that's crazier than prices paid for state quarters.

Just as an aside, last week the PCGS online pop report showed a 1922 No D Strong Reverse in MS65RD - a pop 1. The previous high grades was a sole MS64RD and a pair of MS64RBs. Wow! I immediately thought that perhaps it was a mistake, but if it were true, I wondered, what would it be worth? The two opinions I solicited, from respected dealer/collectors, were $200,000 and $250,000, and I believe that they may very well have been correct! Alas, I'm afraid that we shall never find out because the coin disappeared from the PCGS pop report this week - a mistake it was.

perfectstrike

I'll take some of your 1922 "no D" varieties off your hands at 10% over 1922-D prices
I might be able to afford a red!

perfectstrike

kranky

An article in the Numismatic News reminded me of this thread.

What about the 1982 Roosevelt dime without a mintmark? It's been determined that there was no mintmark applied to the die which should make it more desirable than one which just got worn away. Yet that Roosevelt, while desirable, is nowhere near as valuable as the 1922 No D Lincoln. There's just a mystique about the 22 Plain.

BillJones

There are actually three varieties of the 1922 "Plain" cents. To me the only one that is worth anything is the "strong reverse" variety. It's very scrace in VF-30 or above and rare in Mint State. I have only seen a couple real Mint State examples.

Still I think that this coin should NOT be requried in a complete set of Lincoln cents. It's only a die state that happens to affect the mint mark, and to me that does not make it part of the set.

dorkkarl

i agree w/ calling it a "die state" (die pair 2).

K S