How about a dipped coin that has retoned naturally?

oldcameoproofsguy

Several of the forum members and I have talked about dipped coins that have re-toned nicely. There are many collectors that would argue that there is nothing wrong with a dipped coin that has re-toned and that this should not affect the value of a coin much especially if the coin has really great eye appeal. There are others that say that the coin should have greatly reduced value because the coin lacks originality. I am just curious to see what your views on this subject are.

FC57Coins

When a coin is dipped, you literally take a microscopic layer of the coin off. If you do it CORRECTLY to get rid of ugly toning before submitting and having the coin slabbed, whatever happens to the coin after that should not affect the value of the coin as long as the coin looks original. However, when the qualities of the coin, IE it's luster is compromised, then the value of the coin should be equally compromised.

Frank

Dog97

Dipped coins never retone with all those pretty colors. They just retone that tell tale golden brown color. Personally I don't like it and in the case of our favorite series, the Barber, I would rather have a ugly ORIGINAL black & blue or a properly dipped blast white coin than one that has retoned.

darktone

If you can tell a coin has been dipped and retoned it will lose much of it's appeal to me. mike

stman

Heres how I look at it. And you probably knew I'd reply to this. I never knock anybody for what they like. And if it's retoned thats fine if a person likes that. I never see the prices go down because of it.

For me if I even suspect it has retoned I will pass on it. As Baseball said, we might not know for sure maybe an educated guess. But thats good enough for me. I'm one as you know in the barber series I like original. Now maybe it might not look as pretty to some people.
But to me it does when you know how to look at it.

Before I knew better I have bought some retoned pieces. And again I'm not slamming these. It's just been part of the learning process for me.

Stman

Higashiyama

I would emphasize Dog's point. Dipped coins will often retone to a neutral/OK look, but are rarely colorful.

dorkkarl

gotta disagree w/ 2 of the comments. dipped coins are actually most susceptible to beautiful & colorful toning, because once the natural patina is stripped, the metal is most reactive to its environment. if you have the patience, experiment some time. dip some coins, & stored them in wayte-raymond boards (if you can't find any, give dansco or whitmans a shot). you will find that your coins may get that colorful & highly desidable rainbow look. if however you just leave the dipped silve coins exposed to air, they will simply retone back to gray.

easy way to tell if a coin is retoned: if it is a morgan or seated coin, or something of that vintage, & it is blast white, it's dipped, plain & simple.

K S

Higashiyama

KS -- we may have to agree to disagree on this one. I think that virtually every "monster" that sells for a major premium over a white coin is undipped.

michael

some blast white morgans are original coins like that i have a gsa 84cc that is blast white in the original gsa holder

unless the gas dipped them before they put them imto the holder

i do not think they did to my understanding i could be mistaken though

but usually any blast white morgan and especially so seated coin is dipped!

sincerely michael

dorkkarl

i'm basing my experience on bust coinage, which is what i mostly (75%) pursue. nearly all the beautiful, vividly toned bust halves that come out of wayte-raymond boards clearly have hairlines from cleaning, ie. the underlying surface of the coin was exposed by removing the original patina, & subsequent exposure of the highly-reactive surfaces to the chemicals in the w-r boards made them tone beautifully. i've read a couple of other articles on this which confirmed my own experiences, but unfortunatly cannot find my references - sorry! you may have had an altoghether different experience, though.

interesting followup to this: about 2 shows ago, there was a dealer that had used to "make" 1964 year sets, by dipping the coins, & putting them in cardboard holders. he had 1 for sale that he said was a forgotten "leftover" that had been laying around for years, & all 10 coins had stunning rainbows on them, the cent included. even russ would have been drooling, i think.

K S

izzy452

This may be a little off subject but ...I have heard that pcgs will dip a coin before the put it in a holder. Especially mercury dimes. I have one or two mercs with a little bit on gold toning. So my question is if I send these in for reholdering, will they dip it ?


Walt

lordmarcovan

<< <i>Dipped coins never retone with all those pretty colors >>



Wrong. I have an EF45 1827 Bust half that I dipped as a kid, back, in the late '70's. The secondary toning it has received in the decades since is quite pretty; iridescent hints of pink and blue and violet over medium to dark grey toning overall.

But this is probably the exception to the rule.

nwcs

<< <i>This may be a little off subject but ...I have heard that pcgs will dip a coin before the put it in a holder. Especially mercury dimes. I have one or two mercs with a little bit on gold toning. So my question is if I send these in for reholdering, will they dip it ?


Walt >>

I've seen that question asked before. The answer is no. They won't dip it without you explicitly involved in the process. If they did, they are altering your coin and would be liable to pay you for any damages.

Neil

dorkkarl

in other words, pcgs will clean your coin for you prior to slabbing it, if you so request.

K S

izzy452

Thanks for the info.

Walt

crito

all those pretty colors are produced through a reaction with sulphur. environmental sulphur reacts with oxygen and water long before reaching your coin. The only way to get rainbow colors is to put your coin in close proximity to sulphur laden material, like the paper used in some mint packaging. Copper tones red without ANY help from sulphur. I have plenty of silver proof sets where all the coins are still blast white except for the cents which toned bright red.

And how do you think those gsa morgans were stored for all those years? Same way most other morgans were, in bags. So it's dumb to claim all white morgans have been dipped, except the gsa's, IMO. The coins on the outside of the bag react with the sulphur, protecting the coins in the middle of the bag, which can stay white. Same way the intercept shield product works.

dorkkarl

of course, your right that it's remotely possible for a morgan to have remained BLAST WHITE from day 1, but bottom line is that i would bet against every single BLAST WHITE morgan in a slab being "un-dipped". BLAST WHITE sells, so dealer & plastic companies are gonna give you what you want.

K S

Dog97

I stand by my post: Dipped coins never retone with all those pretty colors.
Now you guys are talking coin doctoring & AT.
A rainbow VF or XF will NG.
I'll agree with the Wayte Raymond method.
(I think) if you do what crito said you will get those funky blue & green colors that scream AT.
Original tone makes a patina on the surface of the coin that a dipped & retoned coin won't have. I'll admit I don't know that for a fact but that is what the toner experts said when Anaconda's ANACS graded whatever kind of Commem it was, was discussed here as being AT.

crito

I never said all blast white Morgans were undipped (if that's even a word) and I never suggested anyone AT their coins. Others claimed that all white Morgans are dipped (and the number of white gsa's proves the possibility isn't really that remote.) Others also claimed all dipped coins retone ugly. Both those claims are false.

stman

I just like a coin to be original toned. Like dog said with that original skin. People like to put them in window sills, ez bake ovens etc. to try and get colors. And for me thats not natural toning original or whatever. For my taste the beauty of the original look is whats important. To me it's a little history of the piece.

Now true we may not know for sure all the time, but if I suspect it's not original, or if someone is looking for me and suspects it's not original, thats good enough for myself and I pass. In the barber series I collect they are tough to find that are true original. But I'll hold out for the right one. And turn down the others.

Stman

Dog97

OK so you can dip a coin and retone it with pretty colors. BUT I thought oldcameoproofsguy was talking about coins that would pass a grading service, not something that would NG.
You can retone a coin with monster colors easily. I can show 500 of them on eBay right now. Some of them are very pretty. They are all raw or in ACG slabs.

Cam40

What the crux of the matter is I think is, is the toning original or artifical,despite pretty colors and / or good or bad eye appeal.Determining whether or not the color is original,( first toning,album toning etc.)Or some kind of retoning,or second toning.
Color that was induced rapidly from a stripped / dipped coin probably does
tone in a different fashion as the `original / or mint bag /album /mint set etc.. toning`

From what If read,and seen in some cases,is the 1st,or original toned coins,the toning is
flat on the coin,were as the second toned coin,the toning appears to float above the surface of the coin when viewed at certain angles.
That may not be in all cases but its true for some.

dorkkarl

a good rule of thumb is that, despite what plastic companies say, basically ALL wild & crazy toning IS AT. it's just that some is accepted in their opinion, others not. for example, wayte-raymond toning IS artificial. but no slabbing svc. would be stupid enough to refuse it.

K S

Nic

Many commems have wild/crazy toning from storage in their original holders...is this AT? I would say no.
Dipped/cleaned coins can develope great color in the right enviorment, look at the Benson coins. Again not AT IMHO. K

dorkkarl

nic, you hit on the 1 exception to the rule. coins that toned due to their INTENDED storage method are not AT. this includes proofs from the 1800's that were sometimes wrapped in paper.

K S

crito

In my mind "original" and "artificial" are not mutually exclusive. It may very well be that certain mint packaging produces artificial toning that is still 100% original. Conversely, a dipped coin that isn't original may, over time, develop 100% natural toning.

shirohniichan

The final determiner for me is how much luster and other positive characteristics of eye-appeal a coin has. If it has been dipped in the past but looks beautiful right now and has no damage, it doesn't bother me.

CalGold

Does the method of cleaning affect the quality of the re-toning? So does using a "modern" cleaning dip like Jeweluster result in a different re-toning coloration and appearance than other older methods?

I know that old timers used a cyanide solution to clean their coins. There are many 19th century proofs that exhibiting beautiful toning but have hairlines from past cleanings. And yes, there are also old proofs that are unattractively, darkly toned too.

Your thoughts and theories please.

stman

My only thought is keep in mind what might be unattractive to one person, is nice to another. For example the old proofs Calgold mentions.

Some folks don't like them, Some do. Sure some are medium- dark toned. But just because you can't see the wild colors doesn't mean it's ugly. Also tilting these pieces you get the color.

Stman

Ronyahski

Yes - dipped coins can retone with beautiful colors.

Yes - many times you can tell even when a beautiful coin has been dipped and retoned.


Proof - Benson Collection

I guess a coin can reacquire its "originality" after dipping if it sits tucked away untouched for 50+ years in a Wayte Raymond holder (any of you that patient?). Even though most of the Benson coins were attractively toned, those coins that were overdipped lost all of their patina (see Dog's comment) and acquired that chromy look. Those coins went for less money because they were less attractive, not because anyone was claiming they weren't original.

robbnsc

I beg to differ, but I had a dark red toned, 1921P Peace Dollar that I submitted to PCGS for grading last year. I also have the Dealer's word, who I purchased it from (a former ANA President) and who will attest to the red color of the Dollar when it went to PCGS. The coin came back white (in a Body Bag). Now I do not mind the Body Bag because I wondered if the coin was cleaned but could not tell. However, PCGS denied dipping the coin and said that "it must have been the packaging material thet changed the color". This is a patently rediculous statement but it is their word against mine.

However, the answer is yes: PCGS does dip coins.

Elcontador

You see a lot of this with Unc. 19th Century type silver coins. Typically I see a cream-color or tan, or occasionally, some cobalt-blue mixed in with a light brown.

If the color is not too dark, I don't have a problem with it. I bought a MS 64 Capped Bust Dime from Bowers that was dipped & retoned with the cobalt blue and light brown & am quite happy with it.