The check has arrived, but where's Anna?
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
Hello U.S. Coin Forum
I had promised the forum that i would post the check for the Legend-Dragon-Keets Morgan when it arrived from PCGS and I plucked it out of the mailbox today. For those newer members I've provided some links and for those familiar with the whole fiasco there's a scan of the check. The only one not at the party is the poor Anna herself.
I guess she's still in transit and should be here tomorrow. That certainly is one well traveled school teacher!!
Al H.
Here's the original thread.
Here's the thread with the before/after holdered coin.
I had promised the forum that i would post the check for the Legend-Dragon-Keets Morgan when it arrived from PCGS and I plucked it out of the mailbox today. For those newer members I've provided some links and for those familiar with the whole fiasco there's a scan of the check. The only one not at the party is the poor Anna herself.
I guess she's still in transit and should be here tomorrow. That certainly is one well traveled school teacher!!Al H.
Here's the original thread.
Here's the thread with the before/after holdered coin.
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Comments
Given that I am not very familiar with the market for Morgans, and I really don't feel like digging through those unpleasant threads, could you give us an idea of whether or not this check made you whole for the downgrade?
it's kinda like PCGS telling me the coin has a value of $400. there are other fees associated with it for shipping, resubmission and what-not but they are really inconsequential. i was able to accomplish what i originally set out to do----retain the coin and recoup the difference in grade price according to the gaurantee. so in that regard i am satisfied.
PCGS had originally set the value of the settlement at closer to $1300 but they told me that if i could provide proof of my purchase price, since it was a recent transaction, that they would honor it. the customer service i received was satisfactory aside from the snafu of the coin being returned without rick montgomery looking at it and the extra time that took. overall, though, it was very good.
although some may doubt my honesty in the matter, and in retrospect consider that i acted vindictively, i can assure you i harbor no ill will towards anyone involved in all that transpired. sometimes it takes a while to work thing through, internally. but i tend to look on the positive side of things. i gained a relatively pain free education and some wonderful insight into our hobby. i met some members i may not have otherwise. those are the types of things that make my mistakes bearable.
so, jeff, to answer your question----i think i came out ahead, at least ahead of where i was before the whole thing started.
al h.
CONGRATULATIONS! On two separate occasions in the past couple of weeks, I had contemplated creating a thread asking about Anna and her check. I was concerned PCGS would try and lowball you on that reimbursement and it seems they did try and undercut you by $285. I'm glad you got them up to the appropriate figure.
Personally, I found your handling of your prior threads showed a great deal of patience, professionalism and honor. I am quite certain that very few of us would have handled that situation in as honorable a manner as you showed! Clearly, the concensus of Members was the coin was overgraded and you took the absolute high road on this matter. I'm quite certain some of the most vocal and frequent posting Members of this Forum would have squealed like a stuck pig if they took a potential financial hit as large as you were facing.
I'd also like to say I found your previous threads to be THE most educational in past 5 or 6 months. I enjoyed grading the coin and comparing my read on the grade to that of some of the very best. I enjoyed seeing how some Members handled the situation knowing it was a fellow-Member involved in the transaction compared to their handling of Ebay situations were the seller was unaware of their criticism and ridicule. A very marked difference for some Members! I enjoyed seeing how some Members reacted to contradiction of their beloved PCGS. Thank you! The coin is now in it's proper holder, you are mostly financially whole and you have a very attractive DMPL Carson City Morgan!!
I just missed buying it from Dragon..
how about it ?
Larry
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-541-7222 office
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
PCGS Las Vegas June 24-26
Baltimore July 14-17
Chicago August 11-15
Regarding these "kudos to PCGS for proving their guarantee is more than talk". Would that be for trying to LOWBALL Keets with their initial, chicken liver offer of $1,300? Or would that be for finally settling up for $1,585, ONLY after Keets was forced to show proof of a recent transaction and purchase price? Would that "money talk" from PCGS be the settlement provided ONLY upon Keets being forced to return the coin for a 2nd time to allow Rick Montgomery to return from out-of-town to review the coin before a check was cut for the settlement? It seems rather evident the "Rick-review" was used to see if they might be able to squeeeeeeeze the coin back into a MS-66 holder and avoid the big pay-off.
The propaganda espoused by the big PCGS dealers regarding the PCGS guarantee just makes me ill. All the newbies better sit up and take notice of just how hollow the PCGS guarantee really is! The Coin Universe price guide, produced by PCGS dealers, provides a MS-66 DMPL price of $3,150 for a 1883-CC DMPL. The MS-65 DMPL price is $675. The difference between the 2 grades is $2,475. If the Coin Universe price guide is so accurate, useful and up-to-date, then why was Keets issued a check for only $1,585?? That is 36% less than the $2,475!
i've been robbed once. you don't want it to happen to you!
K S
<< <i>Glad it worked out, and kudos to PCGS for once again proving their guarantee is more than just talk, it's money talk >>
now, if only pcgs would guarantee against undergraded coins....
K S
the price guide as explained to me------the prices listed on the net are retail prices and the prices that are used to calculate for the guarantee are wholesale prices.
sending the coin back for the second time was more of an inconvenience than anything else. it's just the PCGS policy that in a situation of this type rick m. reviews the coin. no kind of conspiracy to dodge any responsibility.
with regard to the amount of their determination, i understand them as only wanting to reimburse us for any loss at the point of purchase. it seems they determine todays value and use that as a benchmark unless we're able to show that we paid more based on their grade error in which case they will reimburse for that amount.
karl-----thanks for your concern regarding my addy. the way i look at it, my name and city of residence are posted in my profile and my phone number and addy are listed in the local book. it's not much of a stretch for someone to find where i live. the overwhelming bulk of my collection is safe in a local bank.
al h.
Yes, I do. I know for a fact they have done so many times. Why do you not think they would?
<< <i>Anyone think NGC would have made right like this? This is why PCGS is #1 >>
My only experience is NGC making things right, and PCGS not making things right. Are you sure you want to make a stupid statement like this?
Mr. Ostrich-head,
You speak much of what you know little. NGC will make right of this similarly to what PCGS did. Just like PCGS, NGC will come up with a value assessment that one would think is a low-ball offer. Then, the negotiations come in.
How do I know this, Mr. Ostrich-head? I know this because I've had a buy-back from NGC once. The warranty kicked in, they made me an offer that displeased me. I responded in an angry tone. The weenie did some research, called me back, apologized for the initial offer, and I accepted the second offer.
Hey Mr. Ostrich-head! Are you paid by PCGS to be the way you are? Or, is this entirely a freebie service to them. BTW, your shooting-from-hip commentary in defense of PCGS isn't really helping them. In fact, there is the possibility that some might negatively, and wrongfully, associate you with PCGS.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Doubtful. Not after the coin was reslabbed and sent to the customer. While PCGS will do a "round table" review of regraded coins that will cost them money, I seriously doubt they would change a grade after the customer knows it was overgraded the first time. PCGS does some stupid things, but nothing this stupid.
Retail? More like wishful thinking. PCGS is insane if they think those prices are reflective of actual retail prices.
I agree 100% (really wanted an excuse to say that once)
Anyone think NGC would have made right like this?
Every time I see a NGC proof 70 with milk spots on the home shopping channel, I wonder the same thing
<< <i>Anyone think NGC would have made right like this?
YES!
Compare his situation to if he had bought the coin raw and later had doubts about the grade, and I hope you'd agree the PCGS guarantee served him admirably.
And by the way, I hardly qualify as a big-name PCGS dealer. I have, however, downgraded my share of coins and always been satisfied with PCGS' handling of the situation. Including a case where the problem coin obviously developed its problems after being slabbed. A PCGS slab can be cheap insurance.
my mailman knocked on the door today and i signed the slip for Anna! she's ready to settle in and become a "nester" again. i wonder how she'll like that deposit box??
i guess now i can say that i'm "whole" from the whole ordeal.
al h.
No where did you see me say I thought "keets got a raw deal"! I did say that I thought keets had to do way too much work to receive that check. I did say that PCGS gave him a lowball chicken liver offer of $1,300 that was way under market. He had to go back and forth with PCGS and provide proof of purchase, date of purchase and purchase price to bring the check up to $1,585. He had to then go through the ordeal of sending the coin back to PCGS, again, for the "Rick review" before the check could be cut. No one at PCGS would provide an adequate reason for the coin needing to be returned. That is more than a little wierd. In Dragon's thread, responding to Keet's thread, he said he made the offer to Keets as a result of seeing that Keets was interested in a 1883-CC PCGS MS-66 DMPL Morgan being offered on Ebay by another dealer for a price of $2,695.
Dragon's Thread responding to Keets
So, some dealer felt that coin was worth significantly more than Dragon's price of $1,975. I wonder just how hard Keets would have had to negotiate to receive a refund large enough to make him financially whole had he purchased the coin for the other dealer's price of $2,695???
A "newbie" might not have known to reject PCGS' first offer of $1,300. That settlement would NOT have made the "newbie" financially whole would it? So, where is the protection of the PCGS holder?
DCAMFranklin, what would you have PCGS do instead? Give him full retail value of the most expensive example of that same coin he can find listed on eBay, even though they obviously feel his was a low-end example of the grade at best?
And even if he accepted that first $1300 offer, that's about $1300 more protection than he would have had with a raw coin, wouldn't you agree?
As far as having him send the coin back, your guess (and that is all it is) is as good as mine. My guess would be Rick simply wanted to see it for himself to make sure the facts were straight before PCGS paid out $1585 for a coin they originally made maybe $20 certifying. Seems like a minor inconvenience for $1585.
And if he had paid $2695 for that eBay coin and it was downgraded, I fully expect they would have paid him the full difference between that price and the downgrade value. That is consistent with my first-hand experience with downgrading coins at PCGS. Do you have personal experience downgrading coins at PCGS that makes you feel differently?
There are legitimate criticisms to be made of PCGS. This situation, however, is not one of them. Just the opposite.