Home› PCGS Set Registry Forum

Is the registry emphasis on "finest" good or bad for the hobby?

LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,401 ✭✭✭✭✭
in PCGS Set Registry Forum
I've been pondering this question for some time.

It's very easy to put together a top 5 registry set (assuming you have the money). A good example would be a red gem set of IHC's. (I'm talking gem plastic being easy, NOT a gem set of coins). Try however putting together a MATCHED set of 80% red IHC's and you have a real challenge on your hands. It would be beautiful to behold and might take a decade. It would however rank low in the registry.

So, what do you think? Should there be only one winer? Are people encouraged to collect because of the registry or are they discouraged, knowing their collection will be perceived as "substandard"?
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.

Comments

  • TypetoneTypetone Posts: 1,621 ✭✭
    Another example would be proof Peac*ock toned Eisenhower Dollars. It would take a alot of time, cost a lot of money, and might not even be possible. The average grade would be about 68CAM. This would rank you near the bottom of the list. Yet the set would be beautiful beyond belief and be worth many multiples of the finest brilliant sets.

    Or how about a set of mint state BN IHCs with each piece being one of the deep violet/purple toned examples. Now that would be a set for Kings, and yet would get a low rank.

    Clearly the registry measures the plastic dimension only, and not the ultimate desirablity of the coins. Whether someone who had the unique set wanted to register would be a personal decision. Personally if registered with pictures, I would lobby PCGS to bump it into the top five as an exception to the rule.

    Greg

  • dbldie55dbldie55 Posts: 7,732 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Greg, you are assuming that toning actually makes the coins nicer. Not everone feels that way.
    Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
  • CarlWohlforthCarlWohlforth Posts: 11,074 ✭
    I've been thinking about those things too.

    If I were running the show I would dump weighing all together and go back to a simple average. I would add unlimited "owner" slots to each set. These would allow the collector to enter varieties, errors, coins slabbed by different companies or even raw coins. These slots would not count in the raw rankings so PCGS wouldn't have to look at them or validate them or anything.

    Each year I would invite the public to vote on their favorite set in each catagory they were interested in. Set owners could post images to support their claim to fame. The public might reward a set with all the neat varieties. Or they might vote that the type set with all first year date of issue types is best. The set voted best would be rewarded with an icon and a certificate.
    Carl's Coins website w/ links to Carl's auctions
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,148 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Another example would be proof Peac*ock toned Eisenhower Dollars. It would take a alot of time, cost a lot of money, and might not even be possible. The average grade would be about 68CAM. This would rank you near the bottom of the list. Yet the set would be beautiful beyond belief and be worth many multiples of the finest brilliant sets. Or how about a set of mint state BN IHCs with each piece being one of the deep violet/purple toned examples. Now that would be a set for Kings, and yet would get a low rank. Clearly the registry measures the plastic dimension only, and not the ultimate desirablity of the coins. Whether someone who had the unique set wanted to register would be a personal decision. Personally if registered with pictures, I would lobby PCGS to bump it into the top five as an exception to the rule. Greg >>



    http://www.pcgs.com/new_set_registry/display_coins.chtml?regsetid=5040&alltime=no

    This has been a set that has taken me over 12 years to put together and it's nowhere near being completed, and probably never will be. Just try buying some of these coins from Collectors! They're locked up for years before ever being offered, if at all, on the market.

    This Registry is #75 (?!) but I wouldn't trade it for any of the top sets (other than those ALSO with neat color coins!).

    peacockcoins

  • kieferscoinskieferscoins Posts: 10,017 ✭
    In the CNS Type set I am #4. Now is my set one of the finest? No way! I have a pop 1 shield nickel with rays! (okay, it's a good coin, litterally graded good). Most of my coins are XF-AU which is what I can afford. I outrank others because I have more lower grade coins. The idea of being in the top five is great, but I have to remind myself that there are many more better sets than mine.

    Cameron Kiefer
  • jcpingjcping Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭

    An MS Ike Peac*ock set is much more difficult to assemble compared to PR Ike Peac*ock set.

    I was told that there is one 72-P Peac*ock coin existed. I was also told that it is a type one MS66. Can anyone confirm?

    an SLQ and Ike dollars lover
  • lincolnSencelincolnSence Posts: 407 ✭
    Lakesammman - there have been numerous debates on having the money to put together a top 5 set so I won't argue this point (although you could NOT do this in the lincoln series my friend right now IMHO), but I don't understand how you can say that the top sets are just PLASTIC sets. I must tell you that I enjoy toned coins but would not collect them myself as I believe the way to collect coins is as close to how they rolled off the presses when they were created. This is just my opinion of the perfect coin - original mint luster, finest strike possible given the mints limitations etc. I can only speak directly to lincolns on this point but the finest sets have the best examples in most cases of the various dates. Sure some sets where there are 30+ or more examples of the top pop catagory could result in a top set being comprised of specimens that are all low end top pop examples. Not the lincoln series IMHO.

    CarlWohlforth - your suggestion I believe is the correct answer. Let the collectors decide based on photos which set is the # one set. Yeah there is an additional requirement to getting pictures in of the coins, but this would greatly enhance the registry. Great suggestion.
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,148 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>An MS Ike Peac*ock set is much more difficult to assemble compared to PR Ike Peac*ock set. I was told that there is one 72-P Peac*ock coin existed. I was also told that it is a type one MS66. Can anyone confirm? >>


    It is. I only have two PCGS MS Ikes from the Peac 0ck Hoard, not enough to warrant starting a Registry with them.

    peacockcoins

  • BNEBNE Posts: 772 ✭
    As others point out, "finest" means different things to different people, too. For Braddick, "finest" can sometimes mean "worst." Finest brilliant, finest non-full-steps, finest non-full-bands, brown copper: all of these are (in my opinion) devalued because the registry in some sense dictates that these coins are not as good. Completing high-grade sets of coins like these is a major achievement, and it's a shame that these sets get lost in the shuffle because of top-down decisions regarding relative rarity and worth. Same with toned coins.

    In the end, I think it is a bad thing (at least for me). It can get obsessive, and it fosters a sense of perpetual dissatisfaction when one knows that a nicer coin is OUT THERE. It is a problem when one loses enthusiasm for nice XF coins because they are circulated. It also makes it more difficult to enjoy raw coins. (But is it cleaned? Would it be slabbed? Would it go 65? 66?)

    But it's fun, too.

    I guess I am really torn on this question.
    "The essence of sleight of hand is distraction and misdirection. If smoeone can be convinced that he has, through his own perspicacity, divined your hidden purposes, he will not look further."

    William S. Burroughs, Cities of the Red Night
  • toothpullertoothpuller Posts: 600 ✭
    Lakesammman,

    The Registry game can be played many different ways and for sure the higher one ranks in the Registry has no actual correlation with the value, both monetary and aesthetic of one's set. The Registry encourages people to collect graded coins, the higher the grade, weights etc., the higher the rank. So what. Most people know some of the better sets aren't registered, have NGC crossovers, are incomplete etc. You can't let your competitive nature dictate the way you want to collect . The Registry is good because it lets people know what collections are out there in their specialty. It lets people share their coins [I love to look at your images]. CU may refer to the highest ranking collections as the "finest" but what really is meant is they are the highest graded, most complete collections.

    Most people collect because they like the coins not because they want or need the finest ranked collection.

    Putting together a top five just plastic IHC collection might not be as easy as it sounds, and it certainly would be a stupid endeavor. Who would want the ugliest MS66RDs, the one's that are fly specked or inconsistently colored just because they are MS66s? If someone wants to collect that way, let them. Its plain dumb. You are doing it the right way for you.

  • shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
    I use to be completely turned off by the registry for the reasons Lakesammman stated, as well as the PCGS exclusivity factor. I've come to appreciate the good things it does for the hobby while still taking the ratings with a grain of salt. The kind of sets that appeal to me most are put together by collectors who often reject higher graded coins because they're not true upgrades, sets that have "painstaking" written all over them. To me, that's the difference between your average registry set and a hand picked labor of love. But I'm sure there are many sets in there that qualify.

    How about a set of exquisitely toned copper proofs? Most would be RB or BN and lose lots of points there, but try finding them!
    Paul <> altered surfaces <> CoinGallery.org
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    If I decided to spend the money I could hire some dealers to search out the finest available red IHC's, emphasis on available and end up with an expensive set of nice looking IHC's that would pretty much look all alike to me. Nothing wrong with that, it would bore me quickly. To me it's more interesting and fun to search out them in 64, such a wide difference in eye appeal. The hunt can be as interesting as the capture. I am finding as I go along some of the R/B's are more interesting coins. To be completely honest, I am getting more enjoyment from collecting my second album set with goal to have nothing buy au/bu eye appealing coins. Will I register the 64 set, probably will just so other collectors can see the photos and might be inclined to find a latent interest in collecting them too.
  • CarlWohlforthCarlWohlforth Posts: 11,074 ✭
    That Braddick is on the ball. Now, do I think his Ike set should be higher? NO! Why not? Because I can't visualize how awesome his set must be! Man, oh man, if there was a set that should be imaged it is braddick's peac*ock Ike set. Images optional. But in this case they sure would make a strong case for a high ranking!! If he posts them I'll vote for his set! (Proof Ikes are tough, if you don't have all PR 69 DCAMs you can't even be 42'nd because you didn't register soon enough!)

    The desire to have the best got me back into collecting. Learning how many ways one can define best is keeping me collecting! Thanks for all the thought provoking posts everybody!
    Carl's Coins website w/ links to Carl's auctions
  • SpoolySpooly Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭
    Is the registry emphasis on "finest" good or bad for the hobby?

    You say that like the hobby didn't care about the "finest" before the PCGS Registry.


    Same story.... just a new format.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

    In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
  • BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    The only way possible to rank in a Registry is on some degree

    of quantifiable number grading. Since general appearance and toning is measured solely in the

    eye of the beholder. It is correct , that a lower rated set could in fact be superior to the higher

    rated set in appearence even by knowlegable concensus. However it is difficult to conceive

    of actual perfection in this world, we must settle for what is at best, a more or less

    reasonable approximation. While theoretically , we each collect to please ourselves,

    it is the quest for perfection in coin specimens that in fact drives the hobby.

    Bear

    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
  • JJacksJJacks Posts: 759 ✭

    I agree with Spooly 100%. Look back before the registry, even 5 or 10 or 15 years ago. Even then, the top grade coins brought way bigger money then coins off a few points. Now if you go back 30 or 40 years, there wasn't so much emphasis on the exact grading (Many coins just went sold as Circ or Unc), but whether that is "Good" for the hobby I guess is up to each person to judge.

    JJacks

    Always buying music cards of artists I like! PSA or raw! Esp want PSA 10s 1991 Musicards Marx, Elton, Bryan Adams, etc. And 92/93 Country Gold AJ, Clint Black, Tim McGraw PSA 10s
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,401 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very good and interesting comments......getting deeper than I expected!

    I always thought it was the quest itself that drove the hobby, not the quest for perfection....my next quest, after completing my IHC/FE persuits is going to be a matched set of AU58 Merc's.....it's that sort of quest that drives the hobby at 99% of local stores and shows.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • JJacksJJacks Posts: 759 ✭

    Lakesammman, Don't get me wrong. Collectors should pursue whatever they want to. I happen to be going for a pretty good set of Peace $s at the moment, but I will never get into the top 5 unless I win the lotteryimage, but so what? Collect for the fun of it, and it you are so inclinced, list your set in the Registry, and allow others to view it. One thing about the Registry is that it is a way to find out who else is collecting the same series and maybe make some friends with similar interests. I guess what I am saying is that if you want to be serious about the Registry, that is OK, or it is OK to just have fun!image

    JJacks
    Always buying music cards of artists I like! PSA or raw! Esp want PSA 10s 1991 Musicards Marx, Elton, Bryan Adams, etc. And 92/93 Country Gold AJ, Clint Black, Tim McGraw PSA 10s
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,401 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree...thanks for the input.

    If you want to see my IHC's, they're listed under circ. IHC's and FE's under LakeSamm....I'm slowly uploading the collection as pictures come available and time allows.......and as soon as Shylock gives me technical assistance, the ugly photo's will look better!
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • RegistryCoinRegistryCoin Posts: 5,117 ✭✭✭✭
    This hobby, and all others I can think of, have an emphasis on "finest". Always been that way, always will. The pcgs registry simply puts it in this, admittedly competitive format, and on the net for all to view. What we do with it is up to us.
    Now, as an aside...
    GIVING extra points, over and above the coin's deserved grade, simply for toning, or (dis)coloration is utterly silly, IMHO.
    PAYING extra for toning, or (dis)coloration is an entirely other matter. This is an important distinction!
    (The grading services should be just that, not pricing services!)
  • solidsolid Posts: 2,975
    Keep the rankings as they are, but I also agree with Carl...it would be really cool to
    have a "Collectors Choice" each year for the top set (or top 3 or 5 sets) in each
    category that would be based on voting by other Registry set owners...this would
    emphasize sets that have great appeal due to toning, photos and descriptions, or
    sets that are just plain fun like Braddick's lowest-graded set!

    Great idea, Carl!
  • oldcameoproofsguyoldcameoproofsguy Posts: 3,174 ✭
    Obviously the Registry has had an effect on the market. Any article having to do with the coin market will mention that demand for Registry coins is red hot. The prices for pop tops are soaring as dealers frantically try and fill their Registry clients' want lists.

    What a giant we are creating here. A giant what? I don't know, but a giant nontheless. One thing that is certain about any giant is that when it falls, it falls hard.

    Right now I can still afford my Registry coins. Costs have not ballooned to a point where I have to throw up my hands and admit defeat. Still, in the back of my head there is that voice that says "Doesn't this seem an awefully lot like the frenzy of the early 90's?" I hope not. I hope that the growth spurt is simply that and will level out nice and easy in the future.

    I want to put together a set that ranks amongst the finest known. It has been a dream of mine for many years. For me it did not take the Registry to initiate any motivation of such an endevour.
  • STEWARTBLAYNUMISSTEWARTBLAYNUMIS Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭

    Lakesamman - I enjoyed reading your second paragraph and with the typo,I hope there is only one WINER because I believe that would be plenty

    Try and put together a set of attractively toned Barber dimes,quarters or halves.Its easier to do with proofs but still quite a challenge

    Stewart
  • CoppernicusCoppernicus Posts: 1,764 ✭
    No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to play the "registry game" - IMHO, it is a huge PLUS for the hobby - even for those who do not choose to play, they can still see the "finest" sets and use them as a benchmark.

    Personally, I love to see the quality sets, even though they make me jealous!!

    Coppernicus

    Lincoln Wheats (1909 - 1958) Basic Set - Always Interested in Upgrading!
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,401 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good comments (well, ALMOST all were good.....)

    No, I love the registry idea. It drives some of my decisions too.....I never would have sent in 8 photosealed NGC coins for crossover this month w/o it.....never would have bought the 1873 Cl3 67R in March w/o the anticipation of a registry variety set......wouldn't be buying CN circs and selling my CN proofs (as an aside, if you need a monster 64 P66R no L, see EERC - worth a "7" in the proof series). I plan on upgrading for the next 30 years and love competition in general and the registry in particular.

    My question was more philosophic - does it help build the collector base that will be there when we (or our estates) need to sell our sets in 30 years?

    Maybe it doesn't matter....probably doesn't.......maybe I shouldn't post questions while "on call" during a 80 hour week!

    PS - Stew...when you upgrade, can I have your hand-me-downs?

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • FairlanemanFairlaneman Posts: 10,424 ✭✭✭✭✭
    IMO the hobby has always been driven by the individual collectors desire of his perceived "Finest Coin" in his eyes. This usually is limited to his Finiancial assets. The Registries have to some extent probably swayed some collectors from thier original collecting goals but in the long run most true collectors will revert back too the original goals they had when starting thier collection.

    Buying a coin just for the number on the Slab with no reguard to your preference of how the coin should look in your mind is the Huge bad point that I can see in the Registries. Most often this is done probably with the lower priced coins within a series collected. I have done this and probably many other participants have also.

    Really have struggled with this question for the correct reply. I do not see how the emphasis on trying to find your finest can hurt or help the hobby but I can see how finding a Registry finest coin can hurt the collector when the coin does not actually meet his desires that have been established.

    The answer is IMO that the Registry emphasis on finest has did neither for the Hobby but the emphasis has done both to the individual collector that participates. The Registries were established as a Show Case for PCGS and Participants Coins. Competition and Fun were probably other desires PCGS also had when establishing the Registries. When these are lost by a participant the Bad certainly shows its Ugly Face.

    Hell, did this make any sense at all ?image

    Ken
  • TypetoneTypetone Posts: 1,621 ✭✭
    Ken:

    No, but why change now??image

    Greg
  • FairlanemanFairlaneman Posts: 10,424 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Shucks...Figured it didn't. image

    Consistency Counts !!
  • LucyBopLucyBop Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭
    Lucy thinks its good for the hobby, I am working on several sets and to break into the top ten in any of them would be an absolute thrill. But whether I can do this or not, I love for the world to see my collection. I also love to see myself moving up spots in the rankings. The was an earlier post that compared the registry to a modern day whitman album, I agree with that as well. It is a blast filling in those missing coins. And in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with a complete set that may rank lower then most. It is an accomplishment to complete any set in graded coins for any budget. The registry has caused this Kitty to buy more coins!
    imageBe Bop A Lula!!
    "Senorita HepKitty"
    "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    I don't know if its good or bad for the hobby. The one negative I've seen is that some (a few), have let the chase for the coin in one company's slab color their perspective on coin collecting. They remind me of the sportsfan who thinks their team is always getting "jobbed" by the officials or cry foul when their school is turned in by a competitor for rules violations. Sometimes it isn't easy to accept criticism that people sometimes make without personally attacking them. Perhaps these few should take a long look at the whole picture and a deep inside look at why and what they are collecting. It is disturbing to me to see the mountains of misinformation that are passed on to new collectors or the blatant generalizations that are made. If competing for the best set is your thing fine, there is no need to defend it, its an honorable achievement. Just let others do their thing in the hobby, we aren't all in this to collect the so called finest. Nor do I think it is a natural human instinct to collect the finest, whatever that is.

    To some of us, one pr69dcam whatever looks just the same as the one, minted one year ealier or one year later. They may all be nice to admire, but 4,5,6, etc coins of the same dcam 69 don't do much for my coin collecting soul. The history, the variety, the difference in appearances of what my coins in the same series look like are what satisfy my desire to collect.

    One last thought, I competed all through life in sports, in the classroom, on the job. It's the time in my life to enjoy a hobby the gives me immeasurable pleasure for time I spend doing it. It makes me smile every time I see someone new come in here and began something that I have enjoyed for 45 years. Do I yen for the finest, naw. image
  • FairlanemanFairlaneman Posts: 10,424 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Do I yen for the Finest, Naw

    Mike:

    Maybe not with Coins but when it comes to the subject in your signature line I believe you do. Yes.. Luck was with the Irish today. image
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    We haven't been the finest or luckiest in a long time.image
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,401 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for all the comments.

    I guess the way to look at it is, numismatics is a multifaceted hobby and there is nothing wrong with one of those facets being a subgroup having a little fun putting together a top-notch registry set....others collect in different ways...... still others work to draw newbies into the hobby, etc......all things considered, in spite of the few blemishes associated, I would have to conclude that the registry is a positive part of numismatics.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • michaelmichael Posts: 9,524 ✭✭
    well i have finally come to the conclusion that it is good very good for the hobby but with some caviats

    buy coins worth more out of the holder than in the holder! or at the very least buy the coin not the holder! if it says 65 on the holder for example make sure it is a nice 65 in anyones eyes for the particiular coin/series/date etc.

    specialize in coins that you like and collect and buy something that is exceptional for the date/series/grade/eye appeal etc. etc.

    get value for your money overall value

    make sure if you collect something and start spending money you know and understand what YOU are looking at!

    only buy great coins coins with nothing short of fantastic eye appeal

    and remember coins is a hobby not an investment

    and of course have fun.....lol

    now if you are doing all this then by all means participate in the registry!!!!!

    sincerely michael
Sign In or Register to comment.