Ebay screwing. Caveat Emptor
DanC
Posts: 1,189
Well, I should have known better I guess. If you run across ebay seller "Choo-Choo Coins" - beware.
This individual posts items for sale on ebay, then when you call him on errors claims to just be "the middle man" for some outfit called "Chattanooga Coin". Now just why this Chattanooga coin can't sell it's own phony sets is open to question. NARU?
The sale in question revolves around a "pointed 9 dime" proof set.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1374797774&rd=1
Now this photo shows the dime from one of the "pointed 9" sets Russ got in the day before my little gem arrived. Russ' coin is on the left. My lovely "pointed 9" is on the right. Notice anything funny?
Let's try this one - inset of the dime after removal from the cello, the second inset is the dime in cello, superimposed upon, yep - you guessed it - his OWN auction photo.
Compare carefully. It occured to me that a toning spot of the size that's seen on my admittedly good photo should even be visible in a crappy one. Guess what? - it's the same coin. Proof positive that it was a misrepresentation.
Here's just some of this nosebags hype:
"The set you see comes with its original brown wrapper and inside the set you will pleasantly find a pointed 9 on the dime. This is truly a scare coin and worthy of your attention... and bidding!!! What's a pointed nine on a dime worth? Well I wish I could tell you that the last one we sold brought big money... but I can't because I don't know when we saw one of these !!!."
I was born at night, but not last night. It doesn't take a genius, nor a "Numatist" to tell this one "ain't."
(yes - I know it's "Numismatist", I'm just quoting Mr. Choo-choo.)
Just looks like a scam to me. This particular individual is so "astute" in the coin world that he insists that not one, but TWO "Numatists" (whatever the h@ll that is) "signed off" that this was a pointed 9 dime set. I offered this clown several opportunities to make it right. He prefers instead to cast aspersions on my character. Big mistake.
Russ and I opened the set together, so the old "he switched the coin" routine doesn't fly. The set doesn't have the AH Kennedy either. Tim (Osiris) also saw this set with the celo intact. Hmmm... who would YOU believe, Mr. "Numatist" - or Russ & Tim?
Let me think on that for just a second...
Anyway - do what you like, but I'd recommend seriously considering dealing with this guy before you pull the trigger. I will be filing a fraud complaint - and there will be a nicely "disingenuous" ebay listing for the newly discovered "rare mint error non-pointed pointed 9."
Some additional thoughts... He was really hyper to have me call some "lewis revel" at Chattanooga. About half-way through the mud-slinging this guy suddenly magically changes personalities from 'robert briggs' to "lewis revel" on the SafeHarbor dispute form. Isn't that odd? If this lewis character was available all the time, why then did I need to call Chattanooga coin?
Conclusion? Guess what folks... I'll bet you a "pointed 9 dime" they were posted from the same IP address. Guess what that means?
This individual posts items for sale on ebay, then when you call him on errors claims to just be "the middle man" for some outfit called "Chattanooga Coin". Now just why this Chattanooga coin can't sell it's own phony sets is open to question. NARU?
The sale in question revolves around a "pointed 9 dime" proof set.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1374797774&rd=1
Now this photo shows the dime from one of the "pointed 9" sets Russ got in the day before my little gem arrived. Russ' coin is on the left. My lovely "pointed 9" is on the right. Notice anything funny?
Let's try this one - inset of the dime after removal from the cello, the second inset is the dime in cello, superimposed upon, yep - you guessed it - his OWN auction photo.
Compare carefully. It occured to me that a toning spot of the size that's seen on my admittedly good photo should even be visible in a crappy one. Guess what? - it's the same coin. Proof positive that it was a misrepresentation.
Here's just some of this nosebags hype:
"The set you see comes with its original brown wrapper and inside the set you will pleasantly find a pointed 9 on the dime. This is truly a scare coin and worthy of your attention... and bidding!!! What's a pointed nine on a dime worth? Well I wish I could tell you that the last one we sold brought big money... but I can't because I don't know when we saw one of these !!!."
I was born at night, but not last night. It doesn't take a genius, nor a "Numatist" to tell this one "ain't."
(yes - I know it's "Numismatist", I'm just quoting Mr. Choo-choo.)
Just looks like a scam to me. This particular individual is so "astute" in the coin world that he insists that not one, but TWO "Numatists" (whatever the h@ll that is) "signed off" that this was a pointed 9 dime set. I offered this clown several opportunities to make it right. He prefers instead to cast aspersions on my character. Big mistake.
Russ and I opened the set together, so the old "he switched the coin" routine doesn't fly. The set doesn't have the AH Kennedy either. Tim (Osiris) also saw this set with the celo intact. Hmmm... who would YOU believe, Mr. "Numatist" - or Russ & Tim?
Let me think on that for just a second...
Anyway - do what you like, but I'd recommend seriously considering dealing with this guy before you pull the trigger. I will be filing a fraud complaint - and there will be a nicely "disingenuous" ebay listing for the newly discovered "rare mint error non-pointed pointed 9."
Some additional thoughts... He was really hyper to have me call some "lewis revel" at Chattanooga. About half-way through the mud-slinging this guy suddenly magically changes personalities from 'robert briggs' to "lewis revel" on the SafeHarbor dispute form. Isn't that odd? If this lewis character was available all the time, why then did I need to call Chattanooga coin?
Conclusion? Guess what folks... I'll bet you a "pointed 9 dime" they were posted from the same IP address. Guess what that means?
0
Comments
Thinking more about this: Isn't Chattanooga Coin somehow directly or indirectly tied in with PCI?
peacockcoins
I don't know of this Chattanooga coin - never heard of them.
I do know it's not a good idea to ship crap that's not what was advertised - then call the buyer a liar.
hey! That rhymed!
I read his comment to your negative "Response by choochoocoins - Item was exactly what we stated buyer switched the coin in square trade now". And his feedback to you "Sellers beware. This guy tries to scam by switching out coin and getting refund".
No idea what square trade is but this person must be really out there to think someone would make a false claim over a dime of that value
How do you spell "libel?"
This just gets better and better. Russ? Since it was you that opened this set, would you care to pipe in?
Come to think of it... Tim also saw this set. It was the day of the coin show here. That's TWO witnesses.
edit:
Yep - retaliatory negative. How very adult. By all means - do business with this guy!
What really toasts my cookies is to insinuate that I'd try to pull some sort of scam over $25.
If I were going to rip this intellectual giant off - A. It'd be for a crap-load more than $25, and B. He'd never know it was done.
Obviously, I'm going to have to file a formal fraud charge. I notice he's in Georgia. The GBI is known to be really funny about pursuing folks that commit any act of any sort using a computer. Sigh... It could have been so easy to deal with.
I'll ask the forum members...
I paid $35 for the set, which as you see from the listing was clearly represented to be a "pointed 9 dime" set.
Since we opened the set, I certainly couldn't send it back, and I offered to keep the set for the roughly $10 it was worth, and they could refund the $25 balance.
Alternately - I offered to keep the set for the $10 it was worth, and have the seller send me a real pointed 9 set, for which I would pay the additional $10 to cover the common set, which obviously had no further value as a proof set.
I guess maybe I'm just getting old or something... How precisely does that make me a coin thief?
yes, chat. is related to pci.
however, not sure i understand the whole story, but hey did offer a "100% satisfaction guarantee or $ back", so it may be very difficult to prove wroingdoing on their part. good luck
K S
I do believe I have it.
These hot-shots are so sure I "cherry-picked" and "stole" this coin - they shouldn't mind anteing up the money to have both Russ and I take polygraph tests.
If we fail, I'll pay them ten times the disputed amount, plus the cost of the polygraphs, and agree to be banned from ebay for life.
If we pass, they each pay me ten times the disputed amount, they eat the cost of the polygraphs, agree to be banned from ebay for life, and I get to sue Chattanooga Coin aka PCI for libel.
I wonder just how gutsy these people are? Anyone care to wager?
I hereby throw down the gauntlet.
Tell everyone you know, keep this thread near the top as long as there is interest, report to ebay and follow up with them and take the $25.00 beating.
In the long run, and even the not so long run, you will be able to do an incredible amount of productive things in the time you would have spent playing with this - certainly a whole lot more than $25.00 worth.
I hate getting beat out of money, and always want to set it straight at all costs, but sometimes (most times) the time investment is out of proportion to the possible benefit.
both of my cents for your consideration,
No, not at all. That's not the point. Focusing on the fact that we cut open the set is just an attempt to obfuscate.
The problem is that the set that arrived, was not the set that was described.
What I did subsequently with the set is irrelevant to that fact.
I did not seek to return the set. I acknowledged that it was no longer one that had any value as a set. I'm willing to eat that.
That's what the $10 was about. Fair price for a common '64 proof set. I'm not however, willing to pay $35 for a common proof set when a proof set with a pointed-9 dime was promised.
So - I received a $10 proof set that I was willing to pay for. It's no different than if I were in (shudder at the thought) their store, and through some act, tore or cut open a common '64 proof set. I'd owe him $10. He'd sure have a right to expect it. Conversely, if it had actually BEEN a pointed-nine dime set, then paying $35 would have certainly been appropriate. Get my point? Forget about it being coins. If I broke his Wal-Mart vase, I'd pay for it - but not at Tiffany prices.
What complicates matters is that now they have outright accused me of attempted theft. This is a serious charge.
What they did not count on is that I didn't reveal that I had a witness. I usually keep an ace up my sleeve when dealing with a suspected hair-ball. Proof positive that living with your guard constantly up is a good idea.
I will submit that despite all their pontificating and outright libel, they're going to fold - because they have no evidence that they sent the right set. I however, have compelling evidence that they did not.
The point is the irony of all this. This could have been easily settled. But NO... egos had to become involved. I started this thing very low-key, made no accusations whatsoever. At each step it is they that escalate.
So, since now I know this guy has deep pockets... and boy-oh-boy did he screw up by libeling me - the $64 question is: From whom do you suppose he'll be getting a letter?
Sorry to hear about your troubles. You can leave an additional "follow-up" posting by using this Link and then scrolling down to "Where can I go from here?" and choosing "Review and follow up on feedback you have left about others". eBay does not make the path to post a follow-up statement very intuitive. It took me a while before I learned how to do it.
danreller
this thread alone is worth much more than $25 worth of bad PR.
btw - i suppose being a "middleman" excuses you from any responsibilities? every person on ebay is a middleman.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Edited out comments regarding seller. Response did NOT consider all the facts.
Please consider SarasotaFrank's advice. Some times it is not worth the time to fight.
Personally I'd write Coin World, as dorkkarl suggests, with a calm letter explaining the situation. Then I would move on.
At the least we've been warned so you have already helped balance things.
If so, why did you open it?
If not, how did they know what they were selling?
Don't get wrapped up in the "opening" of the set. That's after the fact. I never said I wouldn't pay for the set, nor did I ask to return it. - I simply object to paying $35 for a common 64 proof set when it's blatantly represented to be a "pointed 9".
<< <i>how did they know what they were selling? >>
Obviously - they did not know... eh?
As to the question of the pointed nine - these "Numatists" evidently weren't aware that sets that contain the pointed 9 dime - contain the Accent Hair Kennedy. That's why I bought it - for the half. I don't care diddly about the dime... although they're sought after. Well - the half isn't AH either. Another clue that it might.... just not be a pointed nine dime. (notwithstanding the straight whacked off tail of a common.
again - it's a matter of being asked to pay for something I "broke" - but it ain't the item they say it is. That's what it's about.
Edit:
afterthought -
Let's remember also that I was dealing with a "reputable" seller, and after all the hype - had been absolutely assured that this was a "pointed 9" set. Who am I to question two "Professional Numatists?" I had no reason to closely examine the dime - I was after the Kennedy.
I'm sorry for your troubles, but you are wrong. Opening the set is the point . What you did subsequently with the set is ENTIRELY RELEVANT.
1.You got something that was NOT as advertised. Maybe intentionally or maybe just an error. But it was apparent without opening the set.
2.To get your money back, you needed to return it to them in the condition it was received. You could've even recovered the shipping cost. Their policy: We will offer a complete exchange or refund on both the item and your return shipping cost for up to 7 days after the auction if you are not 100% satisfied with your purchase.
3.You chose instead to open the package, thereby losing the right of return for refund. All you had to do was return the damn thing. But, you assumed you could renegotiate the terms of sale. Your offers to the seller should've been made before opening the set, so you could've at least still returned it had the offers been refused.
Do you reasonably expect you can purchase a product from a store, open it, keep it, and then still receive some sort of refund?
You pre-empted pursuit of any possible fraud issue by opening the packaging, and allowing the seller to claim you're attempting to switch coins. Its a $35 lesson in buyer beware...don't give yourself an ulcer and endless legal fees over something so simple.
I certainly grant you your right to your opinion, but I disagree.
<< <i>You got something that was NOT as advertised >>
Correct. End of story.
What I did with the set is not germaine to the first question.
So what you're telling me is that I can sell you a 1936 proof set, and when it arrives (along with about 7 others) - you clip out that half that you took a chance on, and... "what's this? - this is a 1963 proof set!!!" Zounds! Well - you paid about $4800 for that set, but since you cut it open - even though it's a 1963 proof set, not a 1936 - you still think that you should pay the full $4800 to keep it?
Sounds good. Let's deal.
Now that was purposely sarcastic, and I'm not trying to bait you. But what I point out is exactly the same. It's immaterial whether it was cut open or not. It's fair for me to pay for what I can't return. I don't dispute that. But - don't call me a liar and a thief and expect to still be standing. That's the point. I made a reasonable offer. They chose to libel me. How that makes me the "bad guy" - I'm not quite sure.
If memory serves, no, you cannot tell without opening. I have seen some notations on proof set envelopes but I don't believe that the US Mint differentiated blunt v. pointed on the envelope. I believe the notations were made by an owner afterwards. I do know I have seen both varieties in packaging that only indicated 1964 PC as in the image above.
So, you really need to look in the envelope, many of which if not all, were sent from the mint unsealed.
To better describe why opening the envelope shouldn't exclude you returning an item, one could easily insert some other combination of coins and then seal the envelope. Until you open the envelope, you cannot be sure the that what is inside is the same as what is typed on the envelope.
DanC,
Your scenario is evolving. Why are you now using the "cut out the half" example. I thought we were talking about opening the mint provided envelope. If you cut into the cello, then you have no grounds for dispute whatsoever. If you merely opened the envelope, as I understood the thread to be about, then I whole-heartedly understand your dissatisfaction. That aside, can you please respond to my question: is it only you roosevelt variety specialists who charge or expect to be charged a different price for proof set that contains a blunt or pointed tail 9? I know of no other dealer or seller who's price varies based on this distinction.
I knew full well when cutting out the half that I'd be keeping the set - that's a no-brainer. It has no value as a proof set.
I don't know how many different ways I can say - cutting the cellophane open to get the Kennedy half out - has nothing to do with the fact that is was not the set advertised. That is a seperate issue entirely.
Everyone is free to conclude as they like. I will not debate whether you would/should/could whatever with regard to opening the set. It's what we do prior to slabbing coins... remember?
Look at the evidence I present. If this is the way YOU would like to be treated by a seller - by all means, knock yourself out. I evidently had bad manners to point out that I didn't get what I paid for. I still maintain I should not pay premium for a common, and misrepresented set. That doesn't truly seem the least bit irrational to me.
You really have no gripe. You cut the set knowing it wasn't what you paid for, and then expected consideration toward another purchase. You should have properly closed the initial purchase (sent it back for a refund, or replacment with the proper item). Your actions sealed your fate.
If you aren't amenable to the reponses you receive by posting a thread in the forum, you ought not post them. In the future, I'll keep my meaningless thoughts out of your threads.
I asked the questions I did because I admittedly didn't know whether or not a pointed nine could be discerned from an unopened package. I don't believe I missed the point. The way you're responding to some of these posts isn't generating any sympathy from me.
The dime was NOT cut out of the celo until after the seller refused to make good on the transaction. It was still in there when Dan brought the set down to me to check it - and it was, and is, not a pointed 9 set as advertised by this seller.
The reason we pursue these pointed 9 sets is that every one I've ever gotten contained an Accented Hair Kennedy, not for the dime. Just got five more in about the time Dan got this one. All of mine were advertised as pointed 9 sets, all were, and all contained Accented Hairs.
This seller started as a thief - or at the very least - an incompetent and now, by his claim that Dan switched the dime, has compounded that offense by demonstrating that he is also a liar.
Russ, NCNE
Explain "refused to make good".
If the seller refused to honor his stated return policy for a set with uncut cellophane, then you have a valid complaint. If this is the case, it certainly wasn't clear from previous posts.
i guess for me you have to find dealers that you can trust and establish a relationship with over much time just the way it is if you find other shorter ways with greater people in coins let me know as it would be lucky for you and rare
for me overall ebay is not something i feel good about or am comfortable with but!
now i am sure there are some great deals and even greater sellers on there but that to me would be RARE! but that is from my very limited experience in just looking and my overall accessment based on my limited knowledge
i guess if you deal with sellers you do not know let the buyer beware and kind of like putting monewy in a slot machine very few winners many losers and they do not call them one armed bandits for nothing.....lol
i am sorry this happened overall you can try to get your money back and if not then not worth pursueing and chalk it up to experience
you could contACT ebay and coin world the ana with your evidence but i think it would be an effort in futility but to get the word out on here and with these organizations if you save one person from ever doing business then to me it would be a success for you!
i guess let the buyer beware and if it looks too good to be true it usually is again sorry for your experience and i completely understand how you feel i would feel the excct same way
next time please do not open the original holders
still doesnot make it right but such is life
please keep this post to the top for a week or so!
sincerely michael
Dan will have to fill you in on the specifics, but as far as I know, until the photographs were shot yesterday, the dime was still in the celo. It certainly was when Dan brought it to me.
The half was clipped out, but I think that was because Dan was trying to confirm whether or not it was the AH variety. Perhaps that was a mistake, but it does not alter the fact that this seller did NOT ship what was advertised.
Oh, one other thing. Since these 1964 proof sets are all the same, and the envelope was already opened by the seller (only way to even check for a pointed 9), it would be easy enough to grab another set that didn't have the half clipped out and send it back. Thus, the "unnopened" excuse as a reason to not make good is moot since the seller would have no way of knowing one way or the other.
In other words, had the half not been clipped out, and the set sent back, the seller could still just claim the set had been switched. Looking at the way this seller handled this, I have no doubt that is precisely what would have happened.
Russ, NCNE
sarasoto hit the proverbial nail on the head when he suggested to accept the loss, be more cautious in the future and forewarn all you can about the seller. what i find interesting is that it seems to be common knowledge that the pointed nine dime set would also contain the Acc. hair kennedy and yet no mention of that is made in the sellers description. that leads me to believe two things. they were trying to suck in some naive bidders and you thought you had scored one cause you were getting a set with a more valuable coin than the seller was aware of. bizzare.
dan, it seems to me a case of 2 wrongs don't make a right even when you are right. in the end it becomes a question of how long do you want this thing to fester inside of you? everthing else, all the explaining, won't bring you the justice you seek. this seller has "won" and the sooner you put it behind you and remember that pride is a character defect, the better. you've already "wasted" more time and energy than is sensible.
al h.
<< <i>when you received the set and realized it wasn't the item described that you should have just contacted the seller and informed them that you wished to return it. >>
Keets,
He did, right after he brought it to me and found out it wasn't a pointed 9. That's when days of runaround started.
Russ, NCNE
if you order a short-sleeve shirt from sears, get the pkg in the mail, sew on a boy-scout patch, THEN realize that oops, "it's a long-sleeve shirt!", then you are out the 25 bucks or whatever.
sorry dude, not trying to say you deserve to lose 25 bucks, but i think your hosed.
K S
Big neon sign thingy
Picture of the product.
the seller offers a 100% return so it's a simple matter of notifying the seller and sending it back. if that had been done i doubt that there would be any discussion past the point that the seller is scum and should be avoided, no matter what happened regarding a refund.
though i may have it wrong, i understand that dan attempted to just keep the set at his determined $10 price for a regular 1964 set and wanted the seller to refund him $25. he should have just returned it. as it stands, the seller is scum and should be avoided but dan screwed up and has a set he can't return. i can't speak for any other members, but i'm paying attention and have added the seller to my "avoid no matter what" list. and i have also learned--again--that if i'm not satisfied with an item it is my best interest to return it promptly.
al h.
K S
If you checked with the seller first if you could do that, and the seller said "no", you could return the package and get your $35 refund and then go out and buy a $10 set from someone else.
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
The main problem as I see it is the seller insists he sent a set with a pointed 9 dime and that Dan is lying about not getting one.
al h.
placid------since the seller doesn't know what a pointed dime looks like to begin with, how would he determine that the returned set didn't have one?? man, i love stirring the pot!!!
Look at it clearly. You didn't like the set. But, you didn't send it back. You cut open the cellophane to negate any chance of refund. Then you made a $10 offer to the seller for coins he perhaps thinks are worth more, or believes he could've resold on ebay for more if they'd been returned. Of course he's going to think you're trying to rip him off.
I'm sure I don't have all the facts, but it appears your desire to punish the seller for what is either a misunderstanding or maybe a case of fraud has clouded your judgement. Sending the set back wouldn't have been condoning or allowing perceived fraud to continue. It merely would've allowed you to get your money back, and then you might've had ebay or the police to investigate, etc.
Good luck, and hope the next one turns out better.
<< <i>hey karl, go reread Occam's razor before you bid on items from that seller!!
al h.
placid------since the seller doesn't know what a pointed dime looks like to begin with, how would he determine that the returned set didn't have one?? man, i love stirring the pot!!!
How do we know the seller dosen't know what a pointed 9 dime looks like?
Maybe someone should invite the seller to the thread.
i was being facetious!! i feel certain that the seller does know what a pointed dime looks like and that accounts for the reaction they displayed when dan contacted them. this example is one we've all seen before. a supposed naive seller with a description to suck in an equally naive buyer. i may be totally off base but i assume dan never e-mailed the seller asking any questions and also assumed that the seller didn't know that the set should contain an Acc. hair half. in short, he was thinking he had found a bargain and didn't want to tip his hand. sort of a game of cat and mouse where it's hard to figure out which is which. these types of things go on all the time on eBay and i think it's ironic that dan's thread title contains buyer beware. he knows better but got caught in the trap!! we all take chances, we all know the game we're playing. why be upset when we get snookered by someone who plays it a little bit better.
maybe that sounds rather harsh, but if the shoe fits wear it. i just chuckle when i read the threads by members who brag about getting this or that from a less informed dealer, or who like to tell us when they win the "lottery" in the coin game. very pridefull. so this is the other side of that pride coin, a situation where a seller has acted unethically and a buyer has been beaten in the game. that's my uninformed take on it all, perhaps simplified a bit.
i sympathize with dan but don't neccesarily agree that he proceeded in the correct manner. i also believe that he would have lost no matter how he proceeded. such is the nature of the scamming seller beast!!
al h.
you are 100% right that a lot of these dudes brag and carry on about how they cherry-picked this or sniped that, or snookered this-or-that seller, but as soon as the shoes is on the other foot......
K S
Russ, NCNE
If the thread is intended to warn about a shady eBay seller, then mission accomplished.
Anything beyond that, there is a saying "Is this the hill on which I'm prepared to die on?" And I guess you have to ask yourself the question.
If it is... good luck.
Edit for grammer.
but as has been stated, all privilege of recourse was forfeited upon alteration of the original product.
K S
finding a piece at a bargain because you've done a lot of research and study is hardly the same as a seller sending you something you didn't order. if that's what you call "winning" then why not just send the buyer an empty envelope and claim that the buyer "stole" it. then the seller really wins...
akin to me telling bobby fisher to accept being "beaten at the game" of chess because i picked up the board and beat him into submission with it.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
The seller can not accuse someone of swapping out coins if they have no proof and post that in feedback.
The solution offered by this buyer was fair. Russ, another word rather than specious came to my mind but it didn't make it past the censor.
russ
i understand the difference and i noted that in my post. the only reason i made the comparison is because i believe what dan was doing was trying to get the Acc. hair half, that's the game part of it.
it goes on all the time, sellers trying to take advantage of naive buyers and buyers trying to take advantage of naive sellers. i play, for kripe sake!!! you play. and i guess dan plays. this time the buyer and seller were both playing and it appears that neither suspected, though dan should have. DOH!!!
and believe me, i've been beaten and the result is one i learned from and a seller i would never buy from again. but i had an oppurtunity to return the item and didn't, so shame on me. i have the ACG coins to prove it!!! double DOH!!
al h.
Me too, that's why I chose that word.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>It's amazing the comments that have been slung around in here on this thread >>
IrishMike--
Is it possible that some people do not "sling" comments, but actually take time like you do and think them through. Actually do read the thread, and maybe... just maybe, draw different conclusions than you might? If this amazes you, I really don't think it should.