"take advantage" or "win" in a transaction where both parties agree to the terms of the sale is not the same as a transaction where one of the parties does not live up to the terms.
would the buyer "win" if he smashed the window of the coin shop and stole the seller's entire inventory?
...............uh oh. perhaps you guys misunderstood my posting in which case you might want to reread them or give me a PM and i'll explain a little better.
From my perspective, since others have now seen the incident - I'm done with it here.
I fully support anyone's right to their opinion. I simply ask the same consideration. Since (thank you for the MANY PM's of support) most folks seem to think that this clown might be a problem to deal with - my task is complete. It's already costing him alot more than the $25 and admitting the mistake like a man. So while they may have percieved winning the battle - the war is toast.
I now know why I prefer to deal with L&C coins. Never a problem, no shady crap - just the coins.
Knowing that goon A. is tied to goon B., I now am wiser about who to deal with, and who to avoid. I'd call it a positive learning experience since they'll never have another opportunity to stick it to me.
Let me conclude by saying what a wonderful customer service experience this was, and what fine gentlemen I dealt with.
Dan, why don't you simply get another proof set, and return it for a refund? The seller can't tell which exact set he sent you in the first place, so he should immediately refund the $35.
Right?
Wait, I'm not so sure!! How on earth will Dan ever be able to prove that the set he received didn't have the pointed 9 dime in it? As Russ said, there's no way! The seller can always say that Dan switched the set, and still neg him. So while I agree that cutting up the cellophane wasn't the best idea, the unscrupulous seller always had an advantage, and would probably refuse the refund based on the fact that it wasn't a pointed 9 dime being returned.
I think the best way to get any satisfaction out of the deal is to go public with it, especially to CoinWorld, and maybe selling the item on eBay again (with a full history, including this thread). The fact that there are very reputable witnesses to this case of fraud only supports Dan. A jury would hopefully side with Dan, and I suspect they would.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
if you buy your coins SIGHT SEEN, you avoid all this nonsense to begin with. i know i know i know, there's "convenience" to buying on the internet. but you know what? 1 way or another you pay for "convenience".
having a 100% guarantee is 2nd best, but if you do something to void that guarantee, the case is closed
<< <i>Dan, why don't you simply get another proof set, and return it for a refund >>
1Jester -
Because that would be unethical. I have 3 more 1964 sets sitting on my desk. It honestly never occurred to me to just slip one of those in the envelope.
Had I lied, I'd have gotten a refund. For telling the truth, I'm ridiculed and libeled. Interesting paradox eh?
One very poignant possibility that no one has brought up is that perhaps Mr. "middle man" switched the set. In the immortal words of Shakespeare, "methinks he doth protest too much." Generally the folks quickest to accuse you of being a crook are crooks themselves.
and besides, if you look at the pictures at the very beginning... even if I had the ethics of these particular 'gentlemen' - I couldn't pull that off. Anyone with half-a-brain can see that it's the same proof set. No - I think I'll post a suitable new auction of the RARE unpointed pointed-9 mint error.
I've spent enough energy on these little turds.
edit:
And Karl - you're absolutely right. I'll never buy a proof set from a dealer on ebay again. For me - only PCGS slabbed coins, or in my hand first. Very wise counsel.
... and my last edit, and last words on the subject:
L&C coins has alot of ebay auctions. I've spent about $1,000 with them in the past 4 months. One particular auction I mistakenly bid on a PR68DCAM and won it. Now - everyone knows I collect only PR69DCAMS right? Well... when my coins arrived, the one that was supposed to be a PR68DCAM was a PR69DCAM! Imagine.
Call 'em up and say... "hey guys - you sent me the wrong coin. It was supposed to be a PR68DCAM. Let me at least give you a better price."
Do you think L&C would hear anything of taking more money for it? Nope. They asked me to keep the coin with their compliments. Now THAT folks... is customer service. Consequently, L&C will get much more of my business.
As a seller - I had the winner of a JFK (that I wasn't going to slab) tell me the coin never arrived. Well... sappy me, the guy felt so bad about it - I sent him another one and ate the costs. What could have been ugly turned into a great relationship and he's bought other coins from me as a result. Time and money well spent. (anyone who doubts this story PM me, and I'll give you his e-mail address. Ask him yourself)
Now I watch folks like Russ - bust his butt EVERY DAY to give superior customer service... I have ALWAYS had to deliver superior customer service - but I'll be dipped if very bloody many businesses that I run into any more seem to have to care. It's remarkable that in tough economic times, a business doesn't have to treat customers with the least bit of regard. I submit that ultimately, it will be their undoing -- and good riddance.
Businesses that truly are dedicated to quality? They're few and far between to be sure... I've spent a good portion of my adult life dedicated to total quality, and six-sigma quality standards. It never fails to offend me when someone touts their customer service, then pulls one of these deals.
There is a predictable pattern to it, and it's pervasive in our society today. It goes like this:
1. business delivers crappy service or product 2. customer complains 3. business gives every reason in the book why it's not their fault 4. customer doesn't buy the song-and-dance 5. business attacks customer's character or accuses customer of wrongdoing 6. customer either - chalks it up to experience, or does something about it.
That's it. I've watched the pattern repeat with various businesses and individuals. Why? I wish I knew. I think it's a social problem.
I recently had an experience buying a 1986 Prestige set. I think it was $21.00. The quality was very good, but these are low priced commodities.
When I received the set - very promptly with good interim emails, I found that the set did not contain the proper coins. Rather than containing a Kennedy, Wash, Roos, Jeff, Linc and the one dollar and half dollar Statue of Liberty Commem's, the half was missing and had been replaced by a second 86 Kennedy.
I would guess the Kennedy was worth more than the commem half, and probably could have busted the set up and made a profit, but since I am collecting these sets for my children, and I would then go have to find another, I decided to contact the seller and see which way the wind blew.
Apologetic is not the word. He explained the mishap, and offered me the option of having him locate and send me the half commem, or take a price reduction, or send it back at his expense for a full refund. I opted to return it. His check arrived three days after we agreed on a refund.
The seller was OEF Coins and I make it a point to tell everyone I discuss ebay coins with to refer them and recount this story.
I hope I have the opportunity to buy from this seller again, just to somehow reward him for being upright.
"I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather did, as opposed to screaming in terror like his passengers."
It sounds like DanC is trying to take the seller's return policy a bit too far. When a seller offers a money back guarentee it means that the buyer returns the goods and the seller returns the money. DanC says "I did not seek to return the set." Therefore he, Russ & Tim do not have a leg to stand on and are trying to take unfair advantage of the seller because the seller did not say "no partial refunds." If the set was not as advertised & the buyer unhappy it should have been returned but DanC wanted to renegotiate the sale instead.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
This was a simple contract between buyer and seller. The seller kept his end by shipping the coins, whether tampered with or not. The buyer broke the contract by not adhering to the return agreement. Auction houses and all coin dealers have the same rule and for good reason. Even if I buy a cleaned piece of junk out of auction raw, once I open that flip, I have no recourse. It would be nice if a selling dealer would still take that coin back but they are under no obligation. For $25 you got away cheap. Many others have learned this lesson for thousands.
<< <i>This was a simple contract between buyer and seller. The seller kept his end by shipping the coins, whether tampered with or not. >>
The seller did not keep his end. He advertised one product and shipped another. That's a breach of the contract by any definition, be it legal, moral, ethical or otherwise.
This is the same guy thats has the 1999 SBA Souvenir Sets for sale on EBAY and only has a picture of a US Mint box. When I question him about the set and ask for a picture of a 1999 SBA souvenir set his reply was look at the picture on the auction page.. A US Mint box.. I think he is alittle less than honest in my opinion... But we know about opinions.. Text
hi from classics, new member, i read what you said about choochoo, man what a rip...so last night i email them and played dumb ,and said , i had heard from some collectors who had bought some of these sets, no names given... and they were not the pointed 9 ...they told me.. well who ever told you that they dont know what they are talking about....and then told me if i buy one, and didnt like the set i would get a refund.......just thought i would pass this info. on to you....ron
"<< Dan, why don't you simply get another proof set, and return it for a refund >>
1Jester -
Because that would be unethical. I have 3 more 1964 sets sitting on my desk. It honestly never occurred to me to just slip one of those in the envelope."
Dan, of course it would be unethical. I was just trying to make a point. I commend you for holding you ground on this one, and especially for not stooping to the level of the slime who tricked you.
Good luck. Keep up the good work.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Comments
would the buyer "win" if he smashed the window of the coin shop and stole the seller's entire inventory?
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
al h.
From my perspective, since others have now seen the incident - I'm done with it here.
I fully support anyone's right to their opinion. I simply ask the same consideration.
Since (thank you for the MANY PM's of support) most folks seem to think that this clown might be a problem
to deal with - my task is complete. It's already costing him alot more than the $25 and admitting the mistake
like a man. So while they may have percieved winning the battle - the war is toast.
I now know why I prefer to deal with L&C coins. Never a problem, no shady crap - just the coins.
Knowing that goon A. is tied to goon B., I now am wiser about who to deal with, and who to avoid.
I'd call it a positive learning experience since they'll never have another opportunity to stick it to me.
Let me conclude by saying what a wonderful customer service experience this was, and what fine gentlemen I dealt with.
Not.
Right?
Wait, I'm not so sure!! How on earth will Dan ever be able to prove that the set he received didn't have the pointed 9 dime in it? As Russ said, there's no way! The seller can always say that Dan switched the set, and still neg him. So while I agree that cutting up the cellophane wasn't the best idea, the unscrupulous seller always had an advantage, and would probably refuse the refund based on the fact that it wasn't a pointed 9 dime being returned.
I think the best way to get any satisfaction out of the deal is to go public with it, especially to CoinWorld, and maybe selling the item on eBay again (with a full history, including this thread). The fact that there are very reputable witnesses to this case of fraud only supports Dan. A jury would hopefully side with Dan, and I suspect they would.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
i think the seller hatched the plan before any of this even happened. why else would he be so quick to say that they "switched the sets"?
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
if you buy your coins SIGHT SEEN, you avoid all this nonsense to begin with. i know i know i know, there's "convenience" to buying on the internet. but you know what? 1 way or another you pay for "convenience".
having a 100% guarantee is 2nd best, but if you do something to void that guarantee, the case is closed
K S
<< <i>Dan, why don't you simply get another proof set, and return it for a refund >>
1Jester -
Because that would be unethical. I have 3 more 1964 sets sitting on my desk.
It honestly never occurred to me to just slip one of those in the envelope.
Had I lied, I'd have gotten a refund. For telling the truth, I'm ridiculed and libeled.
Interesting paradox eh?
One very poignant possibility that no one has brought up is that perhaps Mr. "middle man" switched the set.
In the immortal words of Shakespeare, "methinks he doth protest too much." Generally the folks quickest to accuse you of being a crook are crooks themselves.
and besides, if you look at the pictures at the very beginning... even if I had the ethics of these particular 'gentlemen' - I couldn't pull that off. Anyone with half-a-brain can see that it's the same proof set. No - I think I'll post a suitable new auction of the RARE unpointed pointed-9 mint error.
I've spent enough energy on these little turds.
edit:
And Karl - you're absolutely right. I'll never buy a proof set from a dealer on ebay again. For me - only PCGS slabbed coins, or in my hand first. Very wise counsel.
... and my last edit, and last words on the subject:
L&C coins has alot of ebay auctions. I've spent about $1,000 with them in the past 4 months. One particular auction I mistakenly bid on a PR68DCAM and won it. Now - everyone knows I collect only PR69DCAMS right? Well... when my coins arrived, the one that was supposed to be a PR68DCAM was a PR69DCAM! Imagine.
Call 'em up and say... "hey guys - you sent me the wrong coin. It was supposed to be a PR68DCAM. Let me at least give you a better price."
Do you think L&C would hear anything of taking more money for it? Nope. They asked me to keep the coin with their compliments. Now THAT folks... is customer service. Consequently, L&C will get much more of my business.
As a seller - I had the winner of a JFK (that I wasn't going to slab) tell me the coin never arrived. Well... sappy me, the guy felt so bad about it - I sent him another one and ate the costs. What could have been ugly turned into a great relationship and he's bought other coins from me as a result. Time and money well spent. (anyone who doubts this story PM me, and I'll give you his e-mail address. Ask him yourself)
Now I watch folks like Russ - bust his butt EVERY DAY to give superior customer service... I have ALWAYS had to deliver superior customer service - but I'll be dipped if very bloody many businesses that I run into any more seem to have to care. It's remarkable that in tough economic times, a business doesn't have to treat customers with the least bit of regard. I submit that ultimately, it will be their undoing -- and good riddance.
Businesses that truly are dedicated to quality? They're few and far between to be sure... I've spent a good portion of my adult life dedicated to total quality, and six-sigma quality standards. It never fails to offend me when someone touts their customer service, then pulls one of these deals.
There is a predictable pattern to it, and it's pervasive in our society today. It goes like this:
1. business delivers crappy service or product
2. customer complains
3. business gives every reason in the book why it's not their fault
4. customer doesn't buy the song-and-dance
5. business attacks customer's character or accuses customer of wrongdoing
6. customer either - chalks it up to experience, or does something about it.
That's it. I've watched the pattern repeat with various businesses and individuals. Why? I wish I knew.
I think it's a social problem.
When I received the set - very promptly with good interim emails, I found that the set did not contain the proper coins. Rather than containing a Kennedy, Wash, Roos, Jeff, Linc and the one dollar and half dollar Statue of Liberty Commem's, the half was missing and had been replaced by a second 86 Kennedy.
I would guess the Kennedy was worth more than the commem half, and probably could have busted the set up and made a profit, but since I am collecting these sets for my children, and I would then go have to find another, I decided to contact the seller and see which way the wind blew.
Apologetic is not the word. He explained the mishap, and offered me the option of having him locate and send me the half commem, or take a price reduction, or send it back at his expense for a full refund. I opted to return it. His check arrived three days after we agreed on a refund.
The seller was OEF Coins and I make it a point to tell everyone I discuss ebay coins with to refer them and recount this story.
I hope I have the opportunity to buy from this seller again, just to somehow reward him for being upright.
<< <i>Are you trying to put together a Proof Set for someone special? >>
<< <i>Then this is the auction for you!! >>
the problem is this is a mint set
K S
roadrunner
<< <i>This was a simple contract between buyer and seller. The seller kept his end by shipping the coins, whether tampered with or not. >>
The seller did not keep his end. He advertised one product and shipped another. That's a breach of the contract by any definition, be it legal, moral, ethical or otherwise.
Russ, NCNE
turn into an Anaconda. Bear
Camelot
Text
1Jester -
Because that would be unethical. I have 3 more 1964 sets sitting on my desk.
It honestly never occurred to me to just slip one of those in the envelope."
Dan, of course it would be unethical. I was just trying to make a point. I commend you for holding you ground on this one, and especially for not stooping to the level of the slime who tricked you.
Good luck. Keep up the good work.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22