Well I guess I'll be a kool-aid junky and get a little closer; obviously, I must have missed something, because I really don't understand why so much dissention was brought into the thread. I have a legitimate question that I was sorely tempted to not even pose, just to avoid this fiasco, but, I DO want to ask a question.
Coynclecter,
Providing I've got the order of the images correct, the PCGS old image (the first grading?), does NOT look as lustrous/reflective (use your own adjective) as the later images. Did you maybe dip this coin to remove the toning, which seems apparent only in the PCGS old image, to me anyway.
My initial take on the thread was that grading in general is subjective. I don't believe that anyone can credibly say that PCGS is better at grading than NGC, or vice versa.
For the record, Bill, I did read your post that essentially said what I wrote above. However, your knee-jerk reaction to this post does seem to suggest that you're a kool-aid drinking ostrich like Mr. Ostrich-head and JJ.
It is NOT that you prefer PCGS that makes you a kool-aid drinking ostrich. Rather, it is that your arguments drip with bias and partisanship. Same as with JJ and Mr. Ostrich-head.
All three of you made posts that seem to strongly suggest the possibility of something of which there's been no evidence: tampering, lying, or accidental impairment.
In my opinion, the only correct response is that grading is subjective, and that big mistakes and small variances are simply part of the business. With all the services!
Most importantly, please keep in mind that a kool-aid drinking ostrich is one who argues beyond reason, beyond impartiality.
Finally, I will say that I did not think this post was a PCGS-bashing thread. I did, however, try to impugn the reputation of ostriches everywhere with unsavory association to certain people. My motivation behind that had everything to do with the person and nothing to do with PCGS.
Maybe PCGS simply messed up with the 62? They spent their 5 seconds, blinked, and thought it was a 62. I can't see the reverse but it sure does look gem in those images.
Anybody get a mislabeled coin? Anybody have a coin downgraded 3 numbers? Anybody have any overgraded coins? I have. Anybody who expects either service to be %100 consistent and to never make mistakes is living in a dream world.
Forget about using one example to say that one company is always more consistent, better, more accurate or whatever. There are errors made by both companies.
This doesn't look like a liner case where we are not sure if it is a 64 or 65 this is simple error IMHO.
One more thing about kool-aid drinking ostriches: They rarely ascribe any fault to the object of their affections. When they do, it is only under extreme duress and only with the greatest of limitations.
<< <i>For the record, Bill, I did read your post that essentially said what I wrote above. However, your knee-jerk reaction to this post does seem to suggest that you're a kool-aid drinking ostrich like Mr. Ostrich-head and JJ. >>
Well I guess "seem to suggest" is better than being one
If my posts came off that way they really were not meant to (except for my first one but that was only meant for Mike).
All the PCGS/NGC bashing on this forum has made me a little frustrated and I guess it comes out in my posts on ocassion.
Bill
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
WallstreetMan No offence taken, althought I did have to step back for a minute.
Keets: This was not just one coin, if you read my thread from Friday, there were a number of grades all over the map. I was actually suprised at the consistancy that NGC had with the old assigned grades.
I was simply trying to share the experience I had with these coins that has enlightened me as to the objectivity of grading assignments and not just PCGS. I undertook this small expereiment after sending in a coin twice and getting two different grades. I have since learned what I have heard many times before, buy the coin, not the holder. If I intended only to BASH PCGS I assure you I could have a much better flaming than what these posts were mistaken for.
I still consider PCGS a first class grading service as I do NGC, but it doesn't hurt to experiment and learn which can easily be done with an open mind.
don't mistake me for a PCGS homeboy cause that isn't the stance i try to take. it's just that the current state of affairs with regards to NGC and PCGS tends to be slanted pro-NGC and anti-PCGS and my objective view from personal experience and observation is that they really seem more equal than different. for the coins and series i collect PCGS tends to grade more on strike while NGC tends to grade more on marks and as a general rule PCGS is far stricter when assigning CAM/DCAM. that's just been my impression and i could be dead wrong.
i don't know what your motivation was in all the cracking and resubmitting, whether it was an attempt at some type of analysis of the two services or whether it was an attempt at lining your pocket!! what i do know is what you've posted----that the huegenot was in your opinion a solid 65 but a 66 is worth considerably more so you took a shot and missed and than you sent the coin to NGC and got it back into a 65 holder, thus protecting your investment. it's my inclination to stick to what IS and not what might have been, but i wonder what your course of action would have been if the coin had returned in an NGC 64 holder which seems to be an average from the 3 widely spaced submissions.
i'm always of the opinion that the crackout game is about money, whether it be NGC to PCGS or vice-versa. i was struck by the fact that you felt comfortable about the coins grade in the old PCGS and i think you got sucked in by all the hype that those coins are worthy of an upgrade and you took a shot. as i progress in my education here i find that to be less true, especially the percieved undergraded Green insert coins. it's really a crap-shot either way.
as i've stated in other threads, i'd like to see more posted about coins submitted under the grade guarantee since it seems to be a widely shared opinion that there are many overgraded coins out there. that would seem a logical approach to getting ANY service to straighten up and fly right. money does talk and if one or the other were forced to pay out for their mistakes i believe they would at least consider changing. cracking in the hopes of a big payoff that never arrives and then pencil-whipping the offending company comes across as sour grapes to me. and it doesn't seem to be a constructive way to determine if said service is really playing games and putting a stop to it.
Your statements are very accurate. I was hoping the Huge was undergraded in the 65 holder as I considered it mark free and a solid strike. I could have sent it in with the old holder but thought I might experiment a little. I had recently sent a coin in twice, both PCGS (my first submission since 1989) and had seen it upgraded, thought I'd play and learn a little. I was willing to accept a one point downgrade on the downside. All educations cost. Again this was a learning experience and I did have some nice upgrades. MY SLQ was upgraded by PCGS 65 to 66 and my PCGS 63 California was BBd by PCGS the second time then came back 64 by NGC. Bottom line, I covered my grading costs and learned a lot. When I buy some higher ticket items I will be a lot more cautious than in the past. My biggest suprise was that some went up and some went down but few stayed the same. Another interesting point. Both of these that upgraded as well as those that didn't were all purchased on ebay, also setting straight for me the myth that only the dogs go to ebay. Live and learn and try to share a little with those who are interested.
live and learn is indeed correct and a profound shock sometimes!! i currently have a coin in transit from PCGS that DNC and i was a little bummed about that. it's a 1953 jefferson in an NGC PF68CAM holder that looks every bit of the assigned grade. i guess when it comes home i'll hide it away and ponder what i should do. my instincts tell me to resubmit asking them to cross at any grade and i'd expect it to receive a 68 sans the CAM designation. that would fit in with my assertion that PCGS is harder on the designation than NGC.
one point about crackout's and the registry from both camps---why does PCGS refuse to acknowledge NGC holdered coins? that's always been a bothersome point for me and at the same time it seems to fuel the rivalry of the two services. i end up thinking that PCGS is afraid to recognize a competitor while NGC submits to the fact that PCGS is the leader and allows their coins. from a dollar standpoint it seems to work for both companies and against collectors.
I want to stay away from making this an even longer thread, but I must defend myself and not let you kool-aid NGCer's get away with this.
1. I have yet to see any evidence that the coin wasn't nicked up during the crackout process. If the coin was hit in any way along shipping to PCGS, it is very possible it should have been downgraded.
2. Please don't crack out a coin 10 years after it was graded and expect PCGS to always grade it the exact same. That is what the grading review is for. Did you crack out a 10 year old NGC holder, and if so, what where the results?
3. I find it tough to beleive that 10-15 years ago, 3 graders looked at this coin and said '65', '65', '65', and now they said '62', '62', '62' without something having happened. If PCGS only used 1 grader, maybe. Also, you say you thought the coin was undergraded in a 65 holder, right? Then why are you so happy with a 65 from NGC?
4. This is another thread of a submitter to NGC being "happy" with the results. To me that is a very scary thing for a grading service. If everyone submitting to them seems to be happy, what are they doing wrong? Most collectors and dealers have a tendency to overrate their stuff, and if the coins come back where they thought they would be or higher, it should be questioned. Of course, sometimes coins are worthy of the given grade, but it is hard to find anyone who is ticked off because of low grades NGC gave them.
5. The first post in this thread was clearly meant as a bashing of PCGS, it wasn't disguised in any way, when the poster said Any idea where I'll be sending my coins for grading??? . I just don't know how clear a bashing has to be!
Do you guys now understand why I generally prefer buying PCGS coins? I don't want a 65 that may really be a 62!!! That shouldn't be so hard to understand. Now, if the coin had gone from a 65 to a 68, I would really be worried about PCGS.
JJacks (I never drink kool-aid BTW)
Always buying music cards of artists I like! PSA or raw! Esp want PSA 10s 1991 Musicards Marx, Elton, Bryan Adams, etc. And 92/93 Country Gold AJ, Clint Black, Tim McGraw PSA 10s
JJacks the nonsense in your posts about it being nick, implies that NGC would grade a nicked or scratched coin a 65. Now you may hate NGC with every fiber in your body, but no one on this board is dumb enough to believe that NGC would do that. What possible motivation would they have. JJacks, your mistake is in thinking that we are stupid to buy that hogwash.
Yeah, I'd like to buy 65's at a 62 price all day long, too. Eventually, PCGS would be out of business tho.
There's nothing wrong with being a half point conservative....it's worked for many years now. When they get more than that, submissions would dry up rather quickly I'd think.
Wooooh! IrishMike, wait a sec. I am not saying it got a huge ding that is unbeleivably awful and now belongs in the Braddick collection. I am saying maybe, just maybe it got an extra hit that is seen at 5x or maybe 2x magnification. Maybe if you sent it with other coins and they weren't 100% secure from moving around, it dinged another coin. Are you saying NGC would never grade a coin with any minor marks as an MS65? I don't hardly think so, and I haven't seem any responses to my very reasonable queries, such as:
1. Crack out a NGC holder that is over 10 years old. Are you 100% certain the grade will be the same? Of course not. Nobody can guarantee that - that is why they have grade reviews inside of holders. I agree that 3 points would seem odd, but I bet that would happen even with the gods at NGC on occasion after over 10 years.
2. How come we always seem to see collectors on this board who supposidly have good stuff with messages like (Just samples, I'm not quoting anybody!).
Just got stuff back from PCGS and they were brutal! Got coins back from NGC, and did good - now you know where I'm going!
JJacks
Always buying music cards of artists I like! PSA or raw! Esp want PSA 10s 1991 Musicards Marx, Elton, Bryan Adams, etc. And 92/93 Country Gold AJ, Clint Black, Tim McGraw PSA 10s
You deny drinking kool-aid. But, I couldn't find anywhere that you deny being an ostrich.
Probably just an oversight, right?
If you're entitled to think that Coyn is off in his assessment and that there must be a nick somewhere, then I can certainly assume that you've drunk some other hard beverage.
Where, I ask, do you get off making stuff up? You have no evidence to your assertion, yet you stand strongly behind it?
That is partisanship of the highest ostrich order!
Perhaps you can discuss the thread on its merits and stay away from JJ-Ostrich-Deludedistan...
EVP, I refused to answer to the ostrich part, because it is so bogus and insulting - I am clearly not some stupid kid (sorry to the smart YNs out there - just a saying) out there who has no idea what I am doing. You say I have no evidence this coin got an extra tick on it. You have no evidence it didn't. I say that makes us about even.
The only thing I am partisan on is Politics - 100% everytime. Can you guess which direction?
JJacks
Always buying music cards of artists I like! PSA or raw! Esp want PSA 10s 1991 Musicards Marx, Elton, Bryan Adams, etc. And 92/93 Country Gold AJ, Clint Black, Tim McGraw PSA 10s
And, JJ, before you shoot off another far-fetched explanation, you just might want to consider this explanation: All grading is variable, and every service makes mistakes beyond accepted variance. It seems to me that both NGC and PCGS operate within accepted variance often enough that this topic of PCGS vs NGC is getting silly.
Why is it so hard for some people to believe that PCGS might have made a mistake on this one??? What is more plausible, PCGS makes a mistake on a crack out, or there is a massive conspiracy of people damaging coins and NGC coming to the rescue with their routine 3 point overgrade? Are you people just stupid? I'm beginning to be like Keets, and am sick of this. You are correct, this example doesn't prove anything dramatic about PCGS or NGC, except to illustrate that PCGS sometimes makes mistakes. But incredibly the PCGS blind followers refuse to admit that it's even possible for PCGS to make a mistake.
NORMAL PEOPLE: We believe that all the services employ fallable humans and as such they all make mistakes.
Kool-aid Drinkers: All except PCGS. Whatever PCGS says is the truth, all others are wrong.
DO YOU ALL NOT SEE THE IDOCY!?!?!?!?!?!?!? AAARRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BUT - every service needs to be accountable for its mistakes. Ultimately, the customer is the finalizer. You should have taken the old insert and the coin back to PCGS and had them review it again. We, the customer, should not have to pay for blatant mistakes in grading.
Wow, can't believe I read all of that. I would have had more entertainment watching my wife's home improvement TV shows. Can ya'll post some kind of warning at the top of a thread like this?
Tom
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981 Current focus 1855 date type set
Comments
Coynclecter,
Providing I've got the order of the images correct, the PCGS old image (the first grading?), does NOT look as lustrous/reflective (use your own adjective) as the later images. Did you maybe dip this coin to remove the toning, which seems apparent only in the PCGS old image, to me anyway.
For the record, Bill, I did read your post that essentially said what I wrote above. However, your knee-jerk reaction to this post does seem to suggest that you're a kool-aid drinking ostrich like Mr. Ostrich-head and JJ.
It is NOT that you prefer PCGS that makes you a kool-aid drinking ostrich. Rather, it is that your arguments drip with bias and partisanship. Same as with JJ and Mr. Ostrich-head.
All three of you made posts that seem to strongly suggest the possibility of something of which there's been no evidence: tampering, lying, or accidental impairment.
In my opinion, the only correct response is that grading is subjective, and that big mistakes and small variances are simply part of the business. With all the services!
Most importantly, please keep in mind that a kool-aid drinking ostrich is one who argues beyond reason, beyond impartiality.
Finally, I will say that I did not think this post was a PCGS-bashing thread. I did, however, try to impugn the reputation of ostriches everywhere with unsavory association to certain people. My motivation behind that had everything to do with the person and nothing to do with PCGS.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Maybe standards didn't change over time.
Maybe PCGS simply messed up with the 62? They spent their 5 seconds, blinked, and thought it was a 62. I can't see the reverse but it sure does look gem in those images.
Anybody get a mislabeled coin? Anybody have a coin downgraded 3 numbers? Anybody have any overgraded coins? I have. Anybody who expects either service to be %100 consistent and to never make mistakes is living in a dream world.
Forget about using one example to say that one company is always more consistent, better, more accurate or whatever. There are errors made by both companies.
This doesn't look like a liner case where we are not sure if it is a 64 or 65 this is simple error IMHO.
I suppose they're like lobbyists...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>For the record, Bill, I did read your post that essentially said what I wrote above. However, your knee-jerk reaction to this post does seem to suggest that you're a kool-aid drinking ostrich like Mr. Ostrich-head and JJ. >>
Well I guess "seem to suggest" is better than being one
If my posts came off that way they really were not meant to (except for my first one but that was only meant for Mike
All the PCGS/NGC bashing on this forum has made me a little frustrated and I guess it comes out in my posts on ocassion.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
K S
No offence taken, althought I did have to step back for a minute.
Keets: This was not just one coin, if you read my thread from Friday, there were a number of grades all over the map. I was actually suprised at the consistancy that NGC had with the old assigned grades.
previous post
Here I posted these as I had promised.
I was simply trying to share the experience I had with these coins that has enlightened me as to the objectivity of grading assignments and not just PCGS. I undertook this small expereiment after sending in a coin twice and getting two different grades. I have since learned what I have heard many times before, buy the coin, not the holder. If I intended only to BASH PCGS I assure you I could have a much better flaming than what these posts were mistaken for.
I still consider PCGS a first class grading service as I do NGC, but it doesn't hurt to experiment and learn which can easily be done with an open mind.
don't mistake me for a PCGS homeboy cause that isn't the stance i try to take. it's just that the current state of affairs with regards to NGC and PCGS tends to be slanted pro-NGC and anti-PCGS and my objective view from personal experience and observation is that they really seem more equal than different. for the coins and series i collect PCGS tends to grade more on strike while NGC tends to grade more on marks and as a general rule PCGS is far stricter when assigning CAM/DCAM. that's just been my impression and i could be dead wrong.
i don't know what your motivation was in all the cracking and resubmitting, whether it was an attempt at some type of analysis of the two services or whether it was an attempt at lining your pocket!!
i'm always of the opinion that the crackout game is about money, whether it be NGC to PCGS or vice-versa. i was struck by the fact that you felt comfortable about the coins grade in the old PCGS and i think you got sucked in by all the hype that those coins are worthy of an upgrade and you took a shot. as i progress in my education here i find that to be less true, especially the percieved undergraded Green insert coins. it's really a crap-shot either way.
as i've stated in other threads, i'd like to see more posted about coins submitted under the grade guarantee since it seems to be a widely shared opinion that there are many overgraded coins out there. that would seem a logical approach to getting ANY service to straighten up and fly right. money does talk and if one or the other were forced to pay out for their mistakes i believe they would at least consider changing. cracking in the hopes of a big payoff that never arrives and then pencil-whipping the offending company comes across as sour grapes to me. and it doesn't seem to be a constructive way to determine if said service is really playing games and putting a stop to it.
al h.
Your statements are very accurate. I was hoping the Huge was undergraded in the 65 holder as I considered it mark free and a solid strike. I could have sent it in with the old holder but thought I might experiment a little. I had recently sent a coin in twice, both PCGS (my first submission since 1989) and had seen it upgraded, thought I'd play and learn a little. I was willing to accept a one point downgrade on the downside. All educations cost.
Again this was a learning experience and I did have some nice upgrades. MY SLQ was upgraded by PCGS 65 to 66 and my PCGS 63 California was BBd by PCGS the second time then came back 64 by NGC. Bottom line, I covered my grading costs and learned a lot. When I buy some higher ticket items I will be a lot more cautious than in the past. My biggest suprise was that some went up and some went down but few stayed the same.
Another interesting point. Both of these that upgraded as well as those that didn't were all purchased on ebay, also setting straight for me the myth that only the dogs go to ebay.
Live and learn and try to share a little with those who are interested.
Coyn
live and learn is indeed correct and a profound shock sometimes!! i currently have a coin in transit from PCGS that DNC and i was a little bummed about that. it's a 1953 jefferson in an NGC PF68CAM holder that looks every bit of the assigned grade. i guess when it comes home i'll hide it away and ponder what i should do. my instincts tell me to resubmit asking them to cross at any grade and i'd expect it to receive a 68 sans the CAM designation. that would fit in with my assertion that PCGS is harder on the designation than NGC.
one point about crackout's and the registry from both camps---why does PCGS refuse to acknowledge NGC holdered coins? that's always been a bothersome point for me and at the same time it seems to fuel the rivalry of the two services. i end up thinking that PCGS is afraid to recognize a competitor while NGC submits to the fact that PCGS is the leader and allows their coins. from a dollar standpoint it seems to work for both companies and against collectors.
al h.
I want to stay away from making this an even longer thread, but I must defend myself and not let you kool-aid NGCer's get away with this.
1. I have yet to see any evidence that the coin wasn't nicked up during the crackout process. If the coin was hit in any way along shipping to PCGS, it is very possible it should have been downgraded.
2. Please don't crack out a coin 10 years after it was graded and expect PCGS to always grade it the exact same. That is what the grading review is for. Did you crack out a 10 year old NGC holder, and if so, what where the results?
3. I find it tough to beleive that 10-15 years ago, 3 graders looked at this coin and said '65', '65', '65', and now they said '62', '62', '62' without something having happened. If PCGS only used 1 grader, maybe. Also, you say you thought the coin was undergraded in a 65 holder, right? Then why are you so happy with a 65 from NGC?
4. This is another thread of a submitter to NGC being "happy" with the results. To me that is a very scary thing for a grading service. If everyone submitting to them seems to be happy, what are they doing wrong? Most collectors and dealers have a tendency to overrate their stuff, and if the coins come back where they thought they would be or higher, it should be questioned. Of course, sometimes coins are worthy of the given grade, but it is hard to find anyone who is ticked off because of low grades NGC gave them.
5. The first post in this thread was clearly meant as a bashing of PCGS, it wasn't disguised in any way, when the poster said Any idea where I'll be sending my coins for grading??? . I just don't know how clear a bashing has to be!
Do you guys now understand why I generally prefer buying PCGS coins? I don't want a 65 that may really be a 62!!! That shouldn't be so hard to understand. Now, if the coin had gone from a 65 to a 68, I would really be worried about PCGS.
JJacks (I never drink kool-aid BTW
There's nothing wrong with being a half point conservative....it's worked for many years now. When they get more than that, submissions would dry up rather quickly I'd think.
Wooooh! IrishMike, wait a sec. I am not saying it got a huge ding that is unbeleivably awful and now belongs in the Braddick collection. I am saying maybe, just maybe it got an extra hit that is seen at 5x or maybe 2x magnification. Maybe if you sent it with other coins and they weren't 100% secure from moving around, it dinged another coin. Are you saying NGC would never grade a coin with any minor marks as an MS65? I don't hardly think so, and I haven't seem any responses to my very reasonable queries, such as:
1. Crack out a NGC holder that is over 10 years old. Are you 100% certain the grade will be the same? Of course not. Nobody can guarantee that - that is why they have grade reviews inside of holders. I agree that 3 points would seem odd, but I bet that would happen even with the gods at NGC on occasion after over 10 years.
2. How come we always seem to see collectors on this board who supposidly have good stuff with messages like (Just samples, I'm not quoting anybody!).
Just got stuff back from PCGS and they were brutal!
Got coins back from NGC, and did good - now you know where I'm going!
JJacks
You deny drinking kool-aid. But, I couldn't find anywhere that you deny being an ostrich.
Probably just an oversight, right?
If you're entitled to think that Coyn is off in his assessment and that there must be a nick somewhere, then I can certainly assume that you've drunk some other hard beverage.
Where, I ask, do you get off making stuff up? You have no evidence to your assertion, yet you stand strongly behind it?
That is partisanship of the highest ostrich order!
Perhaps you can discuss the thread on its merits and stay away from JJ-Ostrich-Deludedistan...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
EVP, I refused to answer to the ostrich part, because it is so bogus and insulting - I am clearly not some stupid kid (sorry to the smart YNs out there - just a saying) out there who has no idea what I am doing. You say I have no evidence this coin got an extra tick on it. You have no evidence it didn't. I say that makes us about even.
The only thing I am partisan on is Politics - 100% everytime. Can you guess which direction?
JJacks
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
LOL! With that logic, I cry ``uncle!''
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
NORMAL PEOPLE: We believe that all the services employ fallable humans and as such they all make mistakes.
Kool-aid Drinkers: All except PCGS. Whatever PCGS says is the truth, all others are wrong.
DO YOU ALL NOT SEE THE IDOCY!?!?!?!?!?!?!? AAARRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think I just popped a vein in my forehead.
NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Type collector since 1981
Current focus 1855 date type set
You should be forewarned from now on that any controversial, overdone topic has the likely potential for getting passionate posts.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com